AFL Toast RND 17: Win Against The Crom

[ghostdog]

Watched some of the media shows this evening and they are all raving suggesting that Essendon has arrived. We beat a team who has been down right pathetic on the road and not only beat Adelaide, let them walk within 3 goals at the final siren so upon watching the replay the win was not nearly as impressive as we have been made out to be.

The first quarter and half was as impressive football as we have played but lets not get too carried away. It was Adelaide.

If we are to be taken seriously then one of Geelong (away), Dogs (Marvel, Friday night football), Giants (away), Pies (top of the ladder) needs to be a win and cement ourselves as a finals team. No more respectable losses. Win one if not more of these and we waltz in as a finalist.

On Sunday afternoon I wanted to say what you've said in your second paragraph, but I didn't want to poopoo the win too much.

We did have been able to do in the past; win emphatically, occasionally.

We need to do it a bit more consistently before I think we've genuinely arrived and even then we're nowhere really until we win a final and start finishing top 4.

I think the difference is that the confidence is there because, the Freo abomination aside, we've been able to hang with top 4 sides. Add to that that there are some of the same click-bait commentators who have been saying Adelaide should be a top 4 side. We're just the flavour of the week at the moment.

 

[ghostdog]

The one guy who's worse than Weideman?

I'm thinking of the ruck issues we'll have this week. Smack is definitely a ruck upgrade on Weidman.

 

[eth-dog]

I'm thinking of the ruck issues we'll have this week. Smack is definitely a ruck upgrade on Weidman.

Weid doesn't give away dumb frees in the ruck though.

 

[ghostdog]

Weid doesn't give away dumb frees in the ruck though.

Smack did, but at least he provided a contest, took marks and kicked goals.

You're bored aren't you.

 

[eth-dog]

Smack did, but at least he provided a contest, took marks and kicked goals.

You're bored aren't you.

He didn't though. Over half his games he went goalless. Weideman has been s**t this year and is only 4 goals away from matching Smack's best ever goal tally.

 

[ghostdog]

He didn't though. Over half his games he went goalless. Weideman has been s**t this year and is only 4 goals away from matching Smack's best ever goal tally.

Oh seriously? How do their respective shots at goal compare?

Would still prefer Smack as our ruck option over Weid though.

 

[eth-dog]

Oh seriously? How do their respective shots at goal compare?

Would still prefer Smack as our ruck option over Weid though.

Yep. Weideman has more goals from about 20 fewer he's in his career.

 

[ghostdog]

Yep. Weideman has more goals from about 20 fewer he's in his career.

That's actually amazing, but probably shows how much more of Smack I've seen than Weid, really.

I also have just realised we're having a yarn about who's been more effective with scoring; Smack or Weid.

 

[ghostdog]

Lore laughs at scoring Smack or Weid.

Good work, Lore!

 

[mcgrath_truther]

not to stifle an engaging discussion, but i think the most important that’ll be taken away from the game is just how quick we can score as a club, despite taking the foot off the pedal in the second half there’s been games this season won with less than 81 points scored. the more they play together the better they’ll be

 

[outersanctum]

Genuine question, what do you think he’s elite at,

Is he just an elite accumulator?

I’m not sure he’s VFL level by foot.

I think one of our best players of the last 20 years (Watson) was worse by foot. Parish is not VFL level by foot.. he is probably average to slightly below average. He is capable of some sublime kicks at times.

I would say he is elite at extracting the ball, elite decision making, elite vision in the contest, elite handpassing and elite in the transition game.

I was pleased to see him get the 9 votes from the coaches.. I thought he was exceptional. I think the only people who underrate Parish are the fans on here. He is an inside midfield beast that also has the tank to play transition.. rare combo. Go back to before his injury and he wasn't just leading us in terms of midfielders but he was leading the LEAGUE. Injury set him back and the past few games he has looked a bit off the pace.. on Sunday he was back to his best.

I am loving what Merrett is doing.. but I love what Parish can bring even more.. and the thought of them together.. with Hobbs, Caldwell, Perkins et al rotating through.. yes please!

 

[MiguelM]

I think one of our best players of the last 20 years (Watson) was worse by foot. Parish is not VFL level by foot.. he is probably average to slightly below average. He is capable of some sublime kicks at times.

I would say he is elite at extracting the ball, elite decision making, elite vision in the contest, elite handpassing and elite in the transition game.

I was pleased to see him get the 9 votes from the coaches.. I thought he was exceptional. I think the only people who underrate Parish are the fans on here. He is an inside midfield beast that also has the tank to play transition.. rare combo. Go back to before his injury and he wasn't just leading us in terms of midfielders but he was leading the LEAGUE. Injury set him back and the past few games he has looked a bit off the pace.. on Sunday he was back to his best.

I am loving what Merrett is doing.. but I love what Parish can bring even more.. and the thought of them together.. with Hobbs, Caldwell, Perkins et al rotating through.. yes please!

Just watched the replay. Apart from a couple of missed kicks Parish played one of his best I have seen. His handballs under pressure were so clean and precise. We got so much run forward from his extractions. He was involved in many scoring chains.

 

[Happyskeret]

Just watched the replay. Apart from a couple of missed kicks Parish played one of his best I have seen. His handballs under pressure were so clean and precise. We got so much run forward from his extractions. He was involved in many scoring chains.

I think Archie playing that defensive role in the middle sort of what like Setters was doing earlier in the year helped free up Darcy a bit.

 

[Happyskeret]

I think one of our best players of the last 20 years (Watson) was worse by foot. Parish is not VFL level by foot.. he is probably average to slightly below average. He is capable of some sublime kicks at times.

I would say he is elite at extracting the ball, elite decision making, elite vision in the contest, elite handpassing and elite in the transition game.

I was pleased to see him get the 9 votes from the coaches.. I thought he was exceptional. I think the only people who underrate Parish are the fans on here. He is an inside midfield beast that also has the tank to play transition.. rare combo. Go back to before his injury and he wasn't just leading us in terms of midfielders but he was leading the LEAGUE. Injury set him back and the past few games he has looked a bit off the pace.. on Sunday he was back to his best.

I am loving what Merrett is doing.. but I love what Parish can bring even more.. and the thought of them together.. with Hobbs, Caldwell, Perkins et al rotating through.. yes please!

Watson was terrible by foot at the start of his career but was vastly improved in the second half of his career. Just like his old man had great hands and vision.

 

[DallasCrane316]

4th quarter - game had sort of lost its mojo, so the ball was pinging back n forth without either side caring too much

At the game, I didn’t actually realise that Menzie and Snelling (least I think it was Snelling) spent the last 10-11 mins of the match on the bench.
No wonder we kind of ran out of steam at the end there with the limited rotations.

Menzie had landed awkwardly so I think it was more precautionary leaving him on the bench rather than an actual injury. Wondering if they did the same with Snelling given it’s a 6 day break? Who knows.

 

[bombreys]

So you missed the context, skim read my post, saw three words together that made you see red, and then tee'd off.

What I actually said, with some context, is:
View attachment 1734179

Old man fletch was comparing Flip and Bryan with Weideman and wondering whether Weideman could be dropped for Bryan, with Bryan playing forward in Weideman's role because he could also get 2 hitouts and 3 marks.

Now, my response isn't about excusing Weideman's lack of scoreboard impact. Obviously Weideman would be a more valuable player if he did more things with the ball as well as without it. Weideman has kicked multiple goals 5 times this year, and been held completely scoreless 5 times this year. His other 4 games he had shots on goal that resulted in only behinds, for a total score of 13.15 from 14 games.

But there are also several other things going on here.

Firstly, "it's not what you do with the ball, it's what you do without it" - I am pointing out that stat sheets don't show what players are doing without the ball, and aren't giving you a complete picture of what you need to replace if you want to drop Weideman, so we do need to consider more than the stat sheet in order to seriously consider the implications of selecting Bryan as a forward in place of Weideman.

Secondly, as implied by the context of responding to OMF's post, I am pointing out that Bryan, who is not a forward and "does not have great forward craft and can fade out of a game" (as OMF said), needs to be able to do things Weideman does without the ball, that are not found on the stat sheet, if he's going to take Weideman's spot – not just the '2 hitouts and 3 marks' (or whatever). If Weideman only does half a job by doing the team stuff and not hitting the scoreboard, then why would Bryan who is not a forward be able to do it better?

Thirdly, I emphasise the second point by elaborating; "and where you fit in the system (such as dragging a defender out of their leading lane and not knocking a mark out of their hands)". This is in reference to us playing Phillips ahead of Bryan because Flip has better forward craft, and yet Flip still doesn't seem to know 'where he fits in the system' most of the time, and can often be seen 'dragging a defender into the leading lane', [competing for the same ball as his teammates] and 'knocking a mark out of their hands'. There is photographic evidence from last week against Port Adelaide, with Flip competing with Weideman with neither of them getting the mark in Weid's player thread.

Now, if what Weideman does without the ball as part of the forward system is important (and clearly it is given we previously persisted with Jones for much the same reason with much the same scoreboard impact, despite the stat lines in both instances), and if Bryan has no experience doing anything in the forward line either with or without a ball (but particularly without one), and if Flip can't do it as well as Weideman, while Bryan can't do it as well as Flip, then the obvious conclusion is that we cannot play Bryan as a forward in lieu of Weideman.

Bryan as a forward in lieu of Weideman is 2 steps back and 1 step forward. There's no net gain there.




And while we're on the topic of Weideman, he only had 68% game time yesterday. Not quite sure why he's being managed, but that probably accounts a little bit for yesterday's stat line. Last week he had 72%, whereas a normal game for him is 90%+

I don't think I 'tee'd off', nor was I seeing red.

I just said that I think the 'it's not just what you do with the ball' stuff is a bit of a cop out. That line might come into consideration after a couple of quiet weeks, but 6 games in a row without a goal as a KF is simply below the level for mine.

 

[bombreys]

I think one of our best players of the last 20 years (Watson) was worse by foot. Parish is not VFL level by foot.. he is probably average to slightly below average. He is capable of some sublime kicks at times.

I would say he is elite at extracting the ball, elite decision making, elite vision in the contest, elite handpassing and elite in the transition game.

I was pleased to see him get the 9 votes from the coaches.. I thought he was exceptional. I think the only people who underrate Parish are the fans on here. He is an inside midfield beast that also has the tank to play transition.. rare combo. Go back to before his injury and he wasn't just leading us in terms of midfielders but he was leading the LEAGUE. Injury set him back and the past few games he has looked a bit off the pace.. on Sunday he was back to his best.

I am loving what Merrett is doing.. but I love what Parish can bring even more.. and the thought of them together.. with Hobbs, Caldwell, Perkins et al rotating through.. yes please!

Fair enough.

I definitely think he's a below average kick if compared to other AFL midfielders.

I'd agree that in close, his hands are absolutely elite, probably top 10 in the league, if not hire.

I don't agree re the decision making, but can see what you're saying.

I feel as though Merrett is close to irreplaceable for us - where I think we could probably replace a lot of what Parish does. I certainly don't dislike him and think he's a very good - great player. I just personally think if the price was right in the return, I wouldn't be totally opposed to a trade.

 

[Lore]

I don't think I 'tee'd off', nor was I seeing red.

I just said that I think the 'it's not just what you do with the ball' stuff is a bit of a cop out. That line might come into consideration after a couple of quiet weeks, but 6 games in a row without a goal as a KF is simply below the level for mine.

I still think you've entirely missed the point.

 

[jdstorm]

I think Archie playing that defensive role in the middle sort of what like Setters was doing earlier in the year helped free up Darcy a bit.

For sure.

In general I think the forward line reshuffling has gone pretty well. Stringer playing more HF/Mid with Langford as the marking close to goal medium tall has also worked out really well

Which is quite funny since Langford was playing as the 7th defender at times early in the season and now his default position is as one of the deepest forwards 90%.

They’ve spent a lot of this year working out team structure and it seems to really be starting to pay off.