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Autopsy Round 16, 2025: Positives and Negatives vs Collingwood

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squashface said:
My concern is I don't know if it will be possible to sustain this game style to the point where we decimate shit sides and consistently compete against top sides in finals/GFs. Obviously it is early days but I worry that it is a game style where a) you need to be very very fit to do it all game and b) any skill errors mean you are completely exposed going the other way.
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Agree with this, and it’s why I shudder that we have nothing resembling a take the sting out of it and mark the ball a few times mode, nor seemingly have looked to add one yet.

But it’s baby steps, and you have to do a hell of a lot less defensive running when you use the ball more cleanly. Players have twice the fitness when running towards goal than away from them chasing an opponent (look at Daicos ffs).

I’m with you, but I think the natural growth and familiarity in the game plan could also solve that issue by itself, there’s fewer repeat sprints in a well executed version of this.
 
It's a sad state of affairs when you're really happy with a five goal loss, but here we are. The margin flattered Collingwood and if we had kicked goals with several shots we should have nailed, it would have been a much closer finish.

Positives:

  • Excellent game from Liam Baker. His efforts were inspiring and surely he is our next captain.
  • Shanahan debut and goal, hope to see him given an extended run at AFL level.
  • McCarthy showing the poise of a 150-gamer in his second game.
  • Hough thoroughly justifying the move to the midfield - a very impressive game.
  • One of Harry's best games down back.
  • Plenty of good moments from other young players: Hall, Allan, Hutchinson and Maric stood out at times.
  • Duggan tried his hardest and got a lot of the ball (even if some of what he did with it disappointed).
  • Ball movement is improving and looked quite impressive at times.
  • Pressured and frustrated Collingwood and kept them under control for large periods of the game.
  • Reuben Ginbey's going back with the flight of the ball, an act that could have sent him to hospital - so glad that McQualter singled it out in his press conference.
  • Being at the game meant missing out on the Fox Footy commentary.

Negatives:

  • Set shots at goal, obviously. When you compare our easy misses with some of the difficult shots Collingwood nailed, that's the entire winning margin right there.
  • I get sick of mentioning the umpires, but there were some howlers. The inconsistency is infuriating.
  • Not Crippa's best game. Think it is time to look more to the future in team selection.
  • Granted Hunt's one contribution to the game was horrible, but I continue to be bemused by the reluctance to activate the sub sooner.
 
squashface said:
My concern is I don't know if it will be possible to sustain this game style to the point where we decimate shit sides and consistently compete against top sides in finals/GFs. Obviously it is early days but I worry that it is a game style where a) you need to be very very fit to do it all game and b) any skill errors mean you are completely exposed going the other way.
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but even when we turn it over now we are better at defending

earlier in the year a turnover equalled an opposition goal..every single time !
 
HoneyBadger35 said:
He tackled very well tonight (and played well generally but since we’re talking defensive effort). This is going to be taken as some sort of absolute skewering but it’s not, I’m just plainly laying out my stance on Hall, off the back of clearly his best AFL game so there’s no claims of recency bias or post loss melts etc.

He is incredibly defensively lazy and still had some moments tonight of that. One absolute howler of a chase late but even I defended him on that because he was completely gassed in the late fourth of a back and forth sprint. But early in the game, corralling that would make the Simmo Out brigade implode if it was from a whipping boy.

Read through the WAFL thread and you’ll find others saying the same. He rarely chases particularly hard with any intent, they’re jog chases for show if they come at all.

Combine that with his very unpredictable disposal, and I think there’s a massively imposed ceiling on what he can be at AFL level until the equation changes. He’s not particularly big. He’s not a defensive beast. His skills aren’t particularly great.

HOWEVER, his skills tonight would qualify for change the equation in my mind. If that’s his standard of general AFL ball use, then giddy up my son because you can rotate on ball for the next year no questions asked. Tackled very well when the ball was in his vicinity tonight, another big tick.

I think he’s a player with a fair few stark weaknesses, and not a tonne of AFL calibre strengths, but also our handling of him hasn’t been ideal and I’ve championed him getting a call up for a while now based off WAFL form. If he uses the footy like that most weeks, and tackles the blokes in arm’s reach that well, then the lack of chasing and chaotic nature of his skills that he’s shown become massively less relevant.

Good on him, hope he becomes a 200 gamer.
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I watch the WAFL most weeks and spend a fair bit of time in that thread, so familiar with the clay hall jig.

I don’t disagree that he’s not willing to run and chase, I just think that’s really standard for most 19 year old mids. It’s at AFL level that players learn the level of defensive intent required for team D. I just don’t think poor defending is a deal breaker for a 20 year old who’s played under 10 games.

I’ve seen Grego, Gross, Harley and Hewett all put in putrid efforts at stages, and that’s not great, but it is what it is at this stage of their development.

Have you seen Hall in person? He’s skinny but has a huge frame. In a few years he’ll fill out the same way Hough has done.

Agree his disposal tonight was a nice surprise, and if that is the standard it will hold him in good stead.

He has a knack for finding the ball, and he always has. I remember he debuted for Peel seniors with 27D as a 17 year old. Being able to rack them up is a skill in and of itself.

I don’t think Hall will ever be a star, and is far from finished product, but there’s a 4th midfielder in there who can be a very decent role player.
 

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All this Liam Baker for captain stuff grates me tbh. He's someone you want in the leadership group and a vice captain every day of the week but Graham is the one with the personality for Captain.

Here's the deal though. There is no perfect or even obvious candidate on this list. Therefore the next captain of the West Coast Eagles WILL be Patrick Cripps. This is why we are sending Oscar Allen to Brisbane. It's not about pick 2 it's about getting ahead of the media going after Carlton with all the "but you can't trade your captain" story. You can. You will. And thank you for your attention on this matter.
 
HoneyBadger35 said:
Agree with this, and it’s why I shudder that we have nothing resembling a take the sting out of it and mark the ball a few times mode, nor seemingly have looked to add one yet.

But it’s baby steps, and you have to do a hell of a lot less defensive running when you use the ball more cleanly. Players have twice the fitness when running towards goal than away from them chasing an opponent (look at Daicos ffs).

I’m with you, but I think the natural growth and familiarity in the game plan could also solve that issue by itself, there’s fewer repeat sprints in a well executed version of this.
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squashface said:
My concern is I don't know if it will be possible to sustain this game style to the point where we decimate shit sides and consistently compete against top sides in finals/GFs. Obviously it is early days but I worry that it is a game style where a) you need to be very very fit to do it all game and b) any skill errors mean you are completely exposed going the other way.
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Mini has talked about that the game plan isn't just frenetic pace richmond style handball it forward at all costs it's an amalgamation of three or four different styles to be employed depending on the situation in the game. Don't forget he was at melbourne during their premiership year as well (I think) so he had a say in their game plan. Hence all the focus on education this year learning these multiple styles of play.
 
unty11 said:
Mini has talked about that the game plan isn't just frenetic pace richmond style handball it forward at all costs it's an amalgamation of three or four different styles to be employed depending on the situation in the game. Don't forget he was at melbourne during their premiership year as well (I think) so he had a say in their game plan. Hence all the focus on education this year learning these multiple styles of play.
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And also you can’t add every string to the bow at once.

The core of gameplan is gain territory, force forward half turnovers. The core of the ball movement, particularly off half back, is chained handball.

What we’re dishing up in those facets now, compared to the first six weeks of the year, is night and day. That’s our core identity, get that embedded before you add the next elements that let you manage games differently.

Would love a few long chains of possession via foot before the end of the season though. As in not rebounding kicking it over the top of a scrambled defence end to end by foot stuff, but sustained spotting up of repeat targets just to prove we can do it. You do need that ability to kill a few minutes and let everyone take a breath, so even a sign of that by the end of the year, plus the natural growth of the core stuff, has us in good stead to hit the offseason.
 
I think our next captain has to be in our top 10 players week in week out. Duggan this year is probably best 22 but in 2026 and going forward it isn't a certainty even if he stays fit and stays on the park. I've seen this before in footy where a great clubman becomes the captain (Richie Vandenberg) in a transitory team and then it creates a selection head ache when he isn't performing well enough to keep his spot. We don't want that occurring it's a bad look we already have Oscar as captain potentially leaving the club at the end of the season. I'm sure it will naturally sort itself out though.
 
Dark Sharks said:
Badge is a dumb stupid dickhole, but he's not totally clueless here.

There are times where Hall just shows absolutely zero intensity defensively... Like, he not only doesn't chase someone next to him, he legit just stops dead.

He did it again somewhat tonight when he looked like he was 3m from closing down the space on Markov... And just borderline walked towards him and Markov took off under no pressure like he's Speedy Gonzales.

I think he's just unfit or something. He borderline just dies and stands there rather than put on pressure. It's quite odd.

Badge is still a kent for writing off a 19yr old inside midfielder though, let's circle back to that.
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Glad to hear a some others commenting on Hall's lack of intensity defensively. Started to think I was the only one. Watching him a few times just ambling along near the contest but in space reminded me of what we saw Dom Sheed doing frequently. That aside I think he played quite well, so I hope in time he increases his defensive capabilities when it involves chasing or putting more pressure on the player with the ball when they're in space.
 

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I feel we are big imposing players short in the forward line to really take charge of proceedings when we get a run on. Likewise in the backline we leak soft goals at the hint of a momentum shift and at critical times. Our mids also have spells where we cede control as well.

What a wonderful improvement.

Compared to complete and utterly dysfunctional game plan, lack of intensity, pressure and physical preparedness under Simpson. We had stints of actually winning momentum and general play and most importantly we stopped two mini run ons, either of which would have blown out of control in past years. All without McGovern, Allen and Waterman.

Still light years away from a credible AFL force but despite our position, as a fan I find what we are dishing up far easier to accept than the proceeding years. Some very good young prospects in the offing now and another two or three good draft hauls might get us where we need to be.
 
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squashface said:
My concern is I don't know if it will be possible to sustain this game style to the point where we decimate shit sides and consistently compete against top sides in finals/GFs. Obviously it is early days but I worry that it is a game style where a) you need to be very very fit to do it all game and b) any skill errors mean you are completely exposed going the other way.
Click to expand...
I worry about that too. Not to be negative about what McQualter is doing or his game plan in any way. He has done a great job and i might be totally wrong. I am not expecting a finished product now or anytime soon. But the thought floats through my mind that even if you fast forward 2 years from now are we going to get to a point of proficiency with this game plan where we are fit enough to do it all game and to cut out the really bad turnovers in the middle of the ground that cost us so many goals.
 
Pwani Magharibi said:
It's a sad state of affairs when you're really happy with a five goal loss, but here we are. The margin flattered Collingwood and if we had kicked goals with several shots we should have nailed, it would have been a much closer finish.

Positives:

  • Excellent game from Liam Baker. His efforts were inspiring and surely he is our next captain.
  • Shanahan debut and goal, hope to see him given an extended run at AFL level.
  • McCarthy showing the poise of a 150-gamer in his second game.
  • Hough thoroughly justifying the move to the midfield - a very impressive game.
  • One of Harry's best games down back.
  • Plenty of good moments from other young players: Hall, Allan, Hutchinson and Maric stood out at times.
  • Duggan tried his hardest and got a lot of the ball (even if some of what he did with it disappointed).
  • Ball movement is improving and looked quite impressive at times.
  • Pressured and frustrated Collingwood and kept them under control for large periods of the game.
  • Reuben Ginbey's going back with the flight of the ball, an act that could have sent him to hospital - so glad that McQualter singled it out in his press conference.
  • Being at the game meant missing out on the Fox Footy commentary.

Negatives:

  • Set shots at goal, obviously. When you compare our easy misses with some of the difficult shots Collingwood nailed, that's the entire winning margin right there.
  • I get sick of mentioning the umpires, but there were some howlers. The inconsistency is infuriating.
  • Not Crippa's best game. Think it is time to look more to the future in team selection.
  • Granted Hunt's one contribution to the game was horrible, but I continue to be bemused by the reluctance to activate the sub sooner.
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With you on these points.
Is it just me but are the initial onslaught our two ruck-men contested very well. To that end, quite a few BF maligned players had very solid games. Duggan for example.
 
Dark Sharks said:
Just finished watching, stoked with that game.


🌈

+ HoneyBadger35 whipping boy Hall put in a shift. WAFL form carried over, but it was his uncontested ball which was the big win, showed he could get it outside the contest. 22D, 4T and 3 clearances from only 10 cba's is solid.

+ Jobe is undeniably a class player, nice moment watching him dob it from 50m on an angle post high. Has now kicked more AFL goals from 1 game than A.Reid has at any level in almost 12 weeks, hehe.

+ Baker is a king. Just an absolute vacuum whenever the ball is on the deck, how can you not love him? He still can't kick but everything else he does makes up for it, heart and soul. Hope he wins our B&F.

+ Good Segway into Graham who I hope gets the runner up in the B&F. Not perfect but has but shows up each week like we need him to and has put in another full shift.

+ Hedwards was enormous. Potentially the best game I've seen him play. For all the carry on about Darcy, Harry was the best defender on the ground by a country mile. Glad we've got him.

+ Hough is out to prove me wrong about him being a midfielder. Exquisite game tonight, can't knock anything he did or any area he didn't meet expectations.

+ McCarthy was awesome again. Uncovering blokes like him who instantly make out team better is why I'd like us to keep turning our list over and getting rid of the deadwood that's been average for too long.

+ Timothy Kelly contributing is a big tick. Best game I've seen him play for a while.

+ Brockman was good, despite fading in/out of the game. Jilliams could've had a huge night as well but was surprisingly frustrating to watch.

+ Ginbey keeping Elliot quiet is a massive effort, especially considering he ran off him so much and impacted so many aerial contests.


🚽

- Duggan's first quarter was comically bad, but he lifted and did some very important things for the remainder of the game. Arguably could/should be in the positives.

- Went too late on the sub yet again, not that Hunt was much chop anyway. The selection of Hunt as sub and giving Bo and Clay a full game each was also a big tick.


Not that many negatives to be honest, hard to knock a team that tried hard all game against the ladder leaders and made their fans proud 👏🏽 💙 💛
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Actually I can go one better and go to the bloke who has Sumich on Monday morning who is already rolling out the Collingwood didn’t play the first half so everything the eagles did was not that great
 

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Loved Clay Halls game. 15 possessions after half time. He stays in the contest. Even when he wasnt winning the ball he was on his feet and trying to win it. Not knocked over, not throwing his head down. Just in the contest. He didnt win a ton of contested ball but he was putting that defensive pressure on and moving from contest to contest at all times, a refreshing change . He kept his kicking simple and made a few good 20m passes when running forward. He looked to make the safest decision which is okay for now. All the other things he brings to the table more then make up for it

Hopefully he doesnt see the WAFL jumper again this season.
 
Plenty to like about it.

  • Hough is developing beautifully. Id rather his game tonight over pretty boy Daicos
  • Ginbeys courage to go back with the flight and get shit mixed and get back up
  • Harry was awesome tonight
  • Baker and Graham are setting the standard for these kids
  • Flynn while being a pretty ordinary ruckman he did hit the scoreboard and make Cameron accountable

I wouldn't call these negatives as such
  • Cripps is done unfortunately. As much as a shame that it is and how good of a player he's been the game has gone by him.
  • Clean up our disposal and be one touch
 
wce4premiership said:
I did, maybe you should watch it again.

He "kills us" no less than Baker or Graham, or Maric. Even Reid "kills us" at times.
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One thing lost is that Tom McCarthy takes sooooo much pressure of Duggans game. Duggan is purely a half back flanker. Anytime he is tasked with positioning deeper in defense he just blindly launches it since he cant break a tackle in any way. McCarthy lets Duggan play higher up the ground and away from the deeper parts of defense

McCarthys influence cant go understated. The need for someone to take those kick ins, run but then have the ability to shake a tackle as well has been something we havnt had in sooo long. Basically we found our new Shannon Hurn in a way.

Id like to see us give McCarthy a 4 year deal in the off season. Tie him up long term and get it done
 
McCarthy is a very very solid footballer.

There was a moment in defense where Duggan or someone handballed and it became a loose ball off the deck with a Collingwood player about to pick it up...

"McCarthy will win this..." I told the missus and Tom just out bodies the Collingwood flop off the ball, who was in prime position, with ease and picked it up himself piece of cake.

Clear contested ball win. Chuck in his very good overhead marking (2 contested grabs), like the pack mark he took on the flank and he's just such a massive bonus. No need to take a punt on an 18yr old rebounding defender now, we've just been gifted this bloke in his footy prime for another 5+ years.

Sometimes being shit has its benefits. Reckon we could throw him in at the CBD's as well if we needed.
 

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Autopsy Round 16, 2025: Positives and Negatives vs Collingwood

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