Preview Round 17,GWS Giants vs Sydney Swans, Saturday 15th July, 7.25pm, Spotless Stadium

[Bokonon_]

First of all, I've been supporting this club from day dot and contributed to this forum from a very early date.

During the early years we were routinely thrashed every week to a point of it being embarrassing but like others here I stuck fat so I don't need a flog telling me how I should feel or to grow a pair.

It doesn't make you a better supporter singing Kumbaya all the way to Byron Bay in September.

Secondly, this is all opinions. We have a lot of real strengths and at our best I believe we are as good as anybody however this year we have been inconsistent.

An honest appraisal would suggest we could easily be on the fringe of the 8 given our team output this year and had we not been laden with talent we probably would be.

When the team is performing below expectations it is pretty natural for supporters who love the club to forensically look at what is going on.

We don't have all the information or answers but we have the right to discuss them without being shut down by the overly defensive.

If you don't like it scroll down.

And others have a right to express their view as well, and that's the bit you need to get.I'm not going anywhere and you'll have to learn to live with that.
What I am going to do, in reaction to last nights loss, is get off my butt and go Melbourne for next Sundays game, and wear Orange and Grey in what will be a seas of Tiger fans. I get it's tokenism but it's all I can do.
I'm not going to disparage players that work very hard to try to make my year supporting them a happy one. Nor will I call for the coach's head because we lost a game in what by any objective measure has been a successful one.

 

[Determinant]

As far as disappointment and despair goes 1 month of mediocre with excuses doesn't come close to 50 years of "almost" with the saints, so I'm in a pretty good place regarding where we sit.

I agree with Leon that effort wise that was our best game in a while, unfortunately the execution under pressure just wasn't adequate.
I also agree that our plan B is a variation on trying plan A again, game day tactics, in game, have been odd and a couple of our selections in the last few weeks have been mind boggling, having the whole group, players and coaches, have a good look at themselves wouldn't go astray.

This week we lost a rotation very early on and had 1.5 witches hats out there in giants jumpers, and we only got beaten by the form team in the comp by 13 points largely on the back of our errors and some gifts from the men in green.

Credit to the Swans for the full 4 quarter pressure effort they brought, it was a statement from them and we will hopefully take note.

 

[Andre the Giant]

And others have a right to express their view as well, and that's the bit you need to get.I'm not going anywhere and you'll have to learn to live with that.
What I am going to do, in reaction to last nights loss, is get off my butt and go Melbourne for next Sundays game, and wear Orange and Grey in what will be a seas of Tiger fans. I get it's tokenism but it's all I can do.
I'm not going to disparage players that work very hard to try to make my year supporting them a happy one. Nor will I call for the coach's head because we lost a game in what by any objective measure has been a successful one.

I think I get that part a lot better then you.

It is fine to think everything is perfect, and it is fine to think everything isn't.

It is opinion based, and opinions are a bit like you, everyone has one ;-)

 

[Bokonon_]

I think I get that part a lot better then you.

It is fine to think everything is perfect, and it is fine to think everything isn't.

It is opinion based, and opinions are a bit like you, everyone has one ;-)

You really dont like opinions that disagree with you I get that. I've never said everything is perfect but putting words in peoples mouths is a bit like you.
I do believe outside the inner sanctum it's impossible to judge which of the group of coaches, and to a large extent which of the players, is doing what. These things have to be managed within that sanctum.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion of course, but you are much more committed to the idea you can voice yours than other people can voice theirs.
I do firmly believe supporters need to have a little faith, and give the benefit of the doubt. Again objectively we are having a successful season, and the real measure will be how we go in finals.

 

[Giant Strides]

Just got back to Canberra from Sydney after staying the night ... can I just comment on a couple of the preceding posts. I think it's fine, and indeed great, to have differing perspectives, and this is a forum that should encourage debate among our fans. But can we please debate the comment, and take care not to make disparaging remarks about the poster - hard enough having to deal with those from other clubs.

From my perspective, largely agree with dlanod's summary - a mixture of some of the most horrendous defensive clangers I've ever seen all in the one game & some really frustratingly one-sided umpiring of the rules (especially in respective forward 50s). Regarding comments about Leon should have hammered the umpires' performance in the presser - while my heart says that's exactly what I'd like to have seen him do, my head says it would have achieved nothing and perhaps even been self-harming. We have seen it before from Clarko & Brad Scott - and they get jumped on from AFL head office and any factual aspect of the performance gets lost, and I think it then emboldens umpires to then say 'stuff you' to the team. We saw similar once before in that Freo home game a couple of years ago when the umpiring was again atrociously one-sided that Leon went down to talk to the third umpire, and got crucified. And in reality, the 4 goals gifted the Swans by umpires is equalled by the 4 goals our defence gifted them. While we could say the umpiring cost us, equally our own errors cost us, and any whinging about the umpires would simply see those errors brought up. I agree that we could have overcome the umpiring had we not made those clangers - in the end the Swans weren't attacking so brilliantly.

I do agree, though, that it does prompt some discussion of the coaching. While I do like Leon and think he's a great person manager, we have had similar recurring tactical issues - forward 50 entries and kicking out from behinds. It's especially noticeable live, where in attack you can see the unrewarded lead from a player in the F50, only to kick to a 2-on-1 against contest, or someone in a pocket. And some of our kick-in options have been horrendous again and again. And again, I'd point to being very slow to take options, ignoring a guy on his own only to kick to a contest. I realise that you have to vary options, and we like kicking down the line to Patton, Lobb or Cameron for the contest, but when it's not working try some other options. Just frustrating at times. Is that the players not following instructions, or following instructions to the letter and there not being enough options? Just don't know really.

Really disappointed that we actually beat Swans last night in their two areas of excellence - contested possessions and clearances - and yet didn't use the ball well enough to win the game - which we could have, despite the dubious umpiring.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Just got back to Canberra from Sydney after staying the night ... can I just comment on a couple of the preceding posts. I think it's fine, and indeed great, to have differing perspectives, and this is a forum that should encourage debate among our fans. But can we please debate the comment, and take care not to make disparaging remarks about the poster - hard enough having to deal with those from other clubs.

From my perspective, largely agree with dlanod's summary - a mixture of some of the most horrendous defensive clangers I've ever seen all in the one game & some really frustratingly one-sided umpiring of the rules (especially in respective forward 50s). Regarding comments about Leon should have hammered the umpires' performance in the presser - while my heart says that's exactly what I'd like to have seen him do, my head says it would have achieved nothing and perhaps even been self-harming. We have seen it before from Clarko & Brad Scott - and they get jumped on from AFL head office and any factual aspect of the performance gets lost, and I think it then emboldens umpires to then say 'stuff you' to the team. We saw similar once before in that Freo home game a couple of years ago when the umpiring was again atrociously one-sided that Leon went down to talk to the third umpire, and got crucified. And in reality, the 4 goals gifted the Swans by umpires is equalled by the 4 goals our defence gifted them. While we could say the umpiring cost us, equally our own errors cost us, and any whinging about the umpires would simply see those errors brought up. I agree that we could have overcome the umpiring had we not made those clangers - in the end the Swans weren't attacking so brilliantly.

I do agree, though, that it does prompt some discussion of the coaching. While I do like Leon and think he's a great person manager, we have had similar recurring tactical issues - forward 50 entries and kicking out from behinds. It's especially noticeable live, where in attack you can see the unrewarded lead from a player in the F50, only to kick to a 2-on-1 against contest, or someone in a pocket. And some of our kick-in options have been horrendous again and again. And again, I'd point to being very slow to take options, ignoring a guy on his own only to kick to a contest. I realise that you have to vary options, and we like kicking down the line to Patton, Lobb or Cameron for the contest, but when it's not working try some other options. Just frustrating at times. Is that the players not following instructions, or following instructions to the letter and there not being enough options? Just don't know really.

Really disappointed that we actually beat Swans last night in their two areas of excellence - contested possessions and clearances - and yet didn't use the ball well enough to win the game - which we could have, despite the dubious umpiring.

RE above its a sting in the tail because I had the audacity to ask in the game thread if we were watching the same game, as Bokonon had suggested the Swans won the game fair and square.

Re your comments there are recurring issues.

*Kick outs in defence - None of Shaw, Wilson, Corr, Tomlinson or Williams have displayed an ability to kick out consistently or effectively.

*Forward defensive pressure - Every leading AFL analyst has identified a lack of forward defensive pressure from GWS. This is not new, it's been a weakness for years and they have not fixed or even improved it. Teaching blokes to tackle is not rocket science, if they don't want to do it send them to the NEAFL to learn. The majority of scoring opportunities are created from defensive pressure acts.

*Hack kicking - Even our best kids like Shiel are constantly guilty of rushed and hack kicking, the players lack composure and it shows. The players need to be more respectful with the pill in hand.

*Delivery into forward line and forward leading patterns. These two are like chicken and the egg but both critical for creating scoreboard pressure. Our mids are often kicking to the wrong spots or we have forwards running to the wrong spots. Both areas need a lot of work.

*Team Selection - the repeated selection of Sam Reid even when players have returned, the constant selection of a badly cooked Stevie J and Mzungu over Setterfield (WTF). If Reid comes back in this week I will dead set spew up. He is a depth player only and is not up to AFL standard.

In other areas, particularly in close spaces and link play we are dangerous and terrific to watch but we don't seem to have many options if teams shut us down.

 

[dlanod]

RE above its a sting in the tail because I had the audacity to ask in the game thread if we were watching the same game, as Bokonon had suggested the Swans won the game fair and square.

Re your comments there are recurring issues.

*Kick outs in defence - None of Shaw, Wilson, Corr, Tomlinson or Williams have displayed an ability to kick out consistently or effectively.

Shaw isn't bad, and IMO would be one of the better options in the comp. However they've made a definite decision to hand over kick out duties to Wilson and while he's a huge weapon he also panics and doesn't have as good vision as Shaw. Tomlinson and Corr are just horrible and should be banned.

*Forward defensive pressure - Every leading AFL analyst has identified a lack of forward defensive pressure from GWS. This is not new, it's been a weakness for years and they have not fixed or even improved it. Teaching blokes to tackle is not rocket science, if they don't want to do it send them to the NEAFL to learn. The majority of scoring opportunities are created from defensive pressure acts.

IMO this is largely a side-effect of our structure. You can't play as tall a forward line as we do and expect much in the way of pressure unless your smalls are all capable of generating it. Devon and Toby can, Reid can but brings nothing else, but guys like Lloyd and SJ are either too inexperienced to know where to head or too slow to impact the play. We need that extra speedy pressure bringer/crumber like a Rioli or similar, but we just don't seem to pick them up.

*Delivery into forward line and forward leading patterns. These two are like chicken and the egg but both critical for creating scoreboard pressure. Our mids are often kicking to the wrong spots or we have forwards running to the wrong spots. Both areas need a lot of work.

This drives me nuts and I think it is a gameplan/coaching issue. We were better at times this week but the forwards seem too happy to have the ball bombed on their head rather than work for it.

*Team Selection - the repeated selection of Sam Reid even when players have returned, the constant selection of a badly cooked Stevie J and Mzungu over Setterfield (WTF). If Reid comes back in this week I will dead set spew up. He is a depth player only and is not up to AFL standard.

I usually defer to the coaching staff on selection but god it's painful to see some of these guys show up out there.

 

[Bokonon_]

RE above its a sting in the tail because I had the audacity to ask in the game thread if we were watching the same game, as Bokonon had suggested the Swans won the game fair and square.

Re your comments there are recurring issues.

*Kick outs in defence - None of Shaw, Wilson, Corr, Tomlinson or Williams have displayed an ability to kick out consistently or effectively.

*Forward defensive pressure - Every leading AFL analyst has identified a lack of forward defensive pressure from GWS. This is not new, it's been a weakness for years and they have not fixed or even improved it. Teaching blokes to tackle is not rocket science, if they don't want to do it send them to the NEAFL to learn. The majority of scoring opportunities are created from defensive pressure acts.

*Hack kicking - Even our best kids like Shiel are constantly guilty of rushed and hack kicking, the players lack composure and it shows. The players need to be more respectful with the pill in hand.

*Delivery into forward line and forward leading patterns. These two are like chicken and the egg but both critical for creating scoreboard pressure. Our mids are often kicking to the wrong spots or we have forwards running to the wrong spots. Both areas need a lot of work.

*Team Selection - the repeated selection of Sam Reid even when players have returned, the constant selection of a badly cooked Stevie J and Mzungu over Setterfield (WTF). If Reid comes back in this week I will dead set spew up. He is a depth player only and is not up to AFL standard.

In other areas, particularly in close spaces and link play we are dangerous and terrific to watch but we don't seem to have many options if teams shut us down.

I did say that, and stand by it. I haven't seen any response from you in that tjread, might have overlooked it in the process of walking home, javing dinner etc.
It has nothing to do with response to your posting in that thread though. Again you fail to give the necessary courtesy to others, and consider they might know their position better than you do.

 

[Andre the Giant]

I really think you need to grow a pair. We're third on the ladder effectively 11-4 and you want to clean out the coaching staff and start again. We lost a game and suddenly everything we do is terrible. How are you going to handle it when we have a bad year, as we must at some point in the future.

Perhaps not commence posts like this and you might receive courtesy in return.

You are one of those passive aggressive creatures that lurks around setting fires and then playing a victim.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Shaw isn't bad, and IMO would be one of the better options in the comp. However they've made a definite decision to hand over kick out duties to Wilson and while he's a huge weapon he also panics and doesn't have as good vision as Shaw. Tomlinson and Corr are just horrible and should be banned.



IMO this is largely a side-effect of our structure. You can't play as tall a forward line as we do and expect much in the way of pressure unless your smalls are all capable of generating it. Devon and Toby can, Reid can but brings nothing else, but guys like Lloyd and SJ are either too inexperienced to know where to head or too slow to impact the play. We need that extra speedy pressure bringer/crumber like a Rioli or similar, but we just don't seem to pick them up.



This drives me nuts and I think it is a gameplan/coaching issue. We were better at times this week but the forwards seem too happy to have the ball bombed on their head rather than work for it.



I usually defer to the coaching staff on selection but god it's painful to see some of these guys show up out there.

The forward structure is frustrating as Lobb and Patton seem to constantly run into the same space. This should not happen, at least, not as much as it does.

Stevie J is also problematic because he commands the ball but has lost all his agility and cannot do what he used to (at least not as much). He can also be terribly selfish and does not defend. In my mind Dev should be performing Stevie's role and is now completely impotent and playing without a role.

Rory Lobb is a bit out of touch (a lot out of touch) and is not clunking what he used to eat for breakfast. Apart from his marking and ability to kick goals Rory is an elite runner with a massive tank. Not sure we are capitalising on this.

 

[Bokonon_]

Perhaps not commence posts like this and you might receive courtesy in return.

You are one of those passive aggressive creatures that lurks around setting fires and then playing a victim.

Yeah yeah
If you dont have the capacity to get what I'm saying, then theirs no point in communiatibg with you. The fact you think it's appropriate and you're aualified to pass diagnosis on anonymous internet posters confirms my view. I will now place you on ignore.
It's a pity it's necessary because I do get you follow the juniors and there is useful information in your posts. My philosophy is to give people the benefit of the doubt, until there is no doubt. I am now convinced you're not a person worth communicating with.

 

[Determinant]

Take the insults to PM please, the rest of of us aren't all that interested.

 

[Colonial]

Ook here we go

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Lidcombesnake]

Yeah that did escalate quickly but that's not a bad thing it shows people have passion for our team and with passion often comes differences in opinions as long as people are respectful and understand we are all here for the team.

 

[_GT_]

However they've made a definite decision to hand over kick out duties to Wilson and while he's a huge weapon he also panics and doesn't have as good vision as Shaw. Tomlinson and Corr are just horrible and should be banned

Al McConnell said they had to change from Shaw as he had become far too predictable...kick to self, run to the right and long bomb down the line.

 

[dlanod]

Al McConnell said they had to change from Shaw as he had become far too predictable...kick to self, run to the right and long bomb down the line.

I have to admit none of the Swans expected to take a chest mark.

 

[Determinant]

Al McConnell said they had to change from Shaw as he had become far too predictable...kick to self, run to the right and long bomb down the line.

I don't mind Wilson doing them providing his default option is the centre square, Corr never again, that was deer in the headlights stuff

 

[_GT_]

I don't mind Wilson doing providing his default option is the centre square, Corr never again, that was deer in the headlights stuff

Poor Apples. He just needs to forget that game, skip the review and move on.

 

[Giant Strides]

Unfortunately so, given it was his 50th match & should have been memorable.

 

[kulak]

Al McConnell said they had to change from Shaw as he had become far too predictable...kick to self, run to the right and long bomb down the line.

Is that really our strategy, ask the guy kicking out to do what he thinks is right?

Surely there is some strategy and it's up to the player to execute

Unless the comment means they think Shaw is not following the game plan for some reason?

Either way that sounds a bit toxic

 

[dlanod]

Unfortunately so, given it was his 50th match & should have been memorable.

Was definitely memorable.

 

[dlanod]

Is that really our strategy, ask the guy kicking out to do what he thinks is right?

Surely there is some strategy and it's up to the player to execute

Unless the comment means they think Shaw is not following the game plan for some reason?

Either way that sounds a bit toxic

I think you're overthinking it. Usually there'll be a couple of set plays (long to a contest with all our tall timber, or short to the pocket for an uncontested mark) but the expectation would be on the players to make a better play if it's available, e.g. Wilson down the centre against Richmond, or spotting up a player (non-opposition) in the defensive 50 if they're unmarked. Part of the issue on the weekend was guys like Tomlinson and Corr not having the kicking out experience to know if a player is really unmarked in the zone or not. In their case they should almost always take a set play.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

Sorry to intrude on your board, but I really don't think it should be doom and gloom around these parts. Yes, you've got some issues that need to be addressed, but the past month of unimpressive football can be easily explained by a long list of injuries to key players. The Swans obviously had a horror start to the year, but we had almost as many plagers on the field at 80% as we did players out injured and it makes a big difference. You'll start getting some players back and there will be some more continuity in your lineup and suddenly, form will magically improve.

I won't lie though. Felt great to finally beat you again!

 

[db swannie]

I thoroughly enjoyed the night out there. The fish n chips are MUCH better than the s**t they serve at the SCG, and it's a great viewing ground. We had awesome seats, and there were heaps of Swannies around us

It was a very tense game, and I'm glad we got the win, it's been a little while against you lot.

Of all the sides in the top 8, you guys scare me the most. I hope we DON'T meet again this year!

 

[_GT_]

I think you're overthinking it. Usually there'll be a couple of set plays (long to a contest with all our tall timber, or short to the pocket for an uncontested mark) but the expectation would be on the players to make a better play if it's available, e.g. Wilson down the centre against Richmond, or spotting up a player (non-opposition) in the defensive 50 if they're unmarked. Part of the issue on the weekend was guys like Tomlinson and Corr not having the kicking out experience to know if a player is really unmarked in the zone or not. In their case they should almost always take a set play.

Exactly. Heater just finds it hard to break a habit. The guy literally has OCD.