Review Round 23, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[Grasshopper17]

Kane Cornes touching on how good Zorko was kicking inside 50, one time especially he kicked it in along the ground on purpose to give Charlie an advantage. Good pickup.

Yep I can see us doing this against Melbourne especially. In fact I think it will be almost compulsory. Similar to how our forward line functioned in the Semi Final against them last year.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Now that we've had a few days to bask in the glory of beating Collingwood, beating the top side and winning in Melbourne, a bit of critical analysis.

Most of the stat sheet looked pretty favourable to us... We had more disposals which is unusual for us, in any game. More inside 50s, more contested possessions AND uncontested possessions (this is VERY unusual for us to be ahead in both), a lot more marks (96-73) and more intercepts.

So a lot of the night looked like a Brisbane game.

Where I felt we came unstuck was defensively, which is probably pretty obvious given we conceded 100 points. Collingwood had 27 shots from 47 inside 50s, which at 57% efficiency is one of the highest rates we've conceded this season. We also conceded 17 marks inside 50 which is a lot - the most we've conceded since 24 against Port in Round 1 (60% efficiency - also the highest we've conceded this year).

I know a lot's been made in here about Jack Payne's performance and his recent form in general... Do we think this is all down to his personal form? Or do we think the ease at which Collingwood were able to mark inside 50 and convert entries to scores was more structure/pressure/system related?

My own recollection of the game (yet to watch a replay) is that I thought we did well to stifle their ball movement for much of the night. Apart from that patch in the third quarter where they really got on top of us for 10 minutes and were able to get good clean ball going forward.

So to still concede 100 points is a bit of a concern, particularly with Daicos and de Goey still to return.

Scoring 19 goals despite all that, and only breaking even in clearances, indicates our turnover game is in rude health, the best it's looked for 2 decades (and stats about scores from turnover/clearance etc weren't even kept back then). But are we kicking 19 goals against Collingwood with Darcy Moore

30

Darcy Moore

Age

29

Ht

203cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.1

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

169.1

3star

D

13.9

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

0.7

1star

MG

182.0

3star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

2.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

87.4

2star

back in the team? On the MCG?

 

[CarterS]

The XG on the game actually only had us winning by 2 points, great win but not a domination by any stretch.

 

[Dalions]

Now that we've had a few days to bask in the glory of beating Collingwood, beating the top side and winning in Melbourne, a bit of critical analysis.

Most of the stat sheet looked pretty favourable to us... We had more disposals which is unusual for us, in any game. More inside 50s, more contested possessions AND uncontested possessions (this is VERY unusual for us to be ahead in both), a lot more marks (96-73) and more intercepts.

So a lot of the night looked like a Brisbane game.

Where I felt we came unstuck was defensively, which is probably pretty obvious given we conceded 100 points. Collingwood had 27 shots from 47 inside 50s, which at 57% efficiency is one of the highest rates we've conceded this season. We also conceded 17 marks inside 50 which is a lot - the most we've conceded since 24 against Port in Round 1 (60% efficiency - also the highest we've conceded this year).

I know a lot's been made in here about Jack Payne's performance and his recent form in general... Do we think this is all down to his personal form? Or do we think the ease at which Collingwood were able to mark inside 50 and convert entries to scores was more structure/pressure/system related?

My own recollection of the game (yet to watch a replay) is that I thought we did well to stifle their ball movement for much of the night. Apart from that patch in the third quarter where they really got on top of us for 10 minutes and were able to get good clean ball going forward.

So to still concede 100 points is a bit of a concern, particularly with Daicos and de Goey still to return.

Scoring 19 goals despite all that, and only breaking even in clearances, indicates our turnover game is in rude health, the best it's looked for 2 decades (and stats about scores from turnover/clearance etc weren't even kept back then). But are we kicking 19 goals against Collingwood with Darcy Moore back in the team? On the MCG?

If we were to defend better, hopefully we don’t have to kick over 100 point to beat them, with Darcy Moore back in the team and on the G.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Now that we've had a few days to bask in the glory of beating Collingwood, beating the top side and winning in Melbourne, a bit of critical analysis.

Most of the stat sheet looked pretty favourable to us... We had more disposals which is unusual for us, in any game. More inside 50s, more contested possessions AND uncontested possessions (this is VERY unusual for us to be ahead in both), a lot more marks (96-73) and more intercepts.

So a lot of the night looked like a Brisbane game.

Where I felt we came unstuck was defensively, which is probably pretty obvious given we conceded 100 points. Collingwood had 27 shots from 47 inside 50s, which at 57% efficiency is one of the highest rates we've conceded this season. We also conceded 17 marks inside 50 which is a lot - the most we've conceded since 24 against Port in Round 1 (60% efficiency - also the highest we've conceded this year).

I know a lot's been made in here about Jack Payne's performance and his recent form in general... Do we think this is all down to his personal form? Or do we think the ease at which Collingwood were able to mark inside 50 and convert entries to scores was more structure/pressure/system related?

My own recollection of the game (yet to watch a replay) is that I thought we did well to stifle their ball movement for much of the night. Apart from that patch in the third quarter where they really got on top of us for 10 minutes and were able to get good clean ball going forward.

So to still concede 100 points is a bit of a concern, particularly with Daicos and de Goey still to return.

Scoring 19 goals despite all that, and only breaking even in clearances, indicates our turnover game is in rude health, the best it's looked for 2 decades (and stats about scores from turnover/clearance etc weren't even kept back then). But are we kicking 19 goals against Collingwood with Darcy Moore back in the team? On the MCG?

From memory they kicked 4 from centre clearances which is really bad for us and the blame mostly needs to go onto the mids. But definitely agree that we defended poorly starting from the midfield being too aggressive which also allowed us to kick 19 goals

 

[Grasshopper17]

In fairness I'd be a massive fan of a Grand Final in which we kick 124 to 100. But historically defence wins premierships, which is a crushing disappointment to people like me who still try to hold onto the notion that it's possible to play footy which is both entertaining AND successful.

Having said that the last 4 Grand Final winners have all kicked 100 points or more (including Richmond in 2020 - they topped 80 which was the same as 100 that year allowing for shorter quarters). So I live in hope!

 

[Mighty Lions]

In fairness I'd be a massive fan of a Grand Final in which we kick 124 to 100. But historically defence wins premierships, which is a crushing disappointment to people like me who still try to hold onto the notion that it's possible to play footy which is both entertaining AND successful.

Having said that the last 4 Grand Final winners have all kicked 100 points or more (including Richmond in 2020 - they topped 80 which was the same as 100 that year allowing for shorter quarters). So I live in hope!

Early attacking forward pressure is what won it for Geelong last year so I don't prescibe to the theory of defence winning Grand Finals.
In simplistic terms, you kick more than your opposition you win.....how you do that can have many variations.

 

[fugitive]

They scored 20 odd points in junk time otherwise a 124-80 scoreline was more likely but having said that last Friday was probably our best 4th quarter for a while, we put the opposition away instead of hanging on to dear life as had been the trend in many games prior.

Where I felt we came unstuck was defensively, which is probably pretty obvious given we conceded 100 points. Collingwood had 27 shots from 47 inside 50s, which at 57% efficiency is one of the highest rates we've conceded this season. We also conceded 17 marks inside 50 which is a lot - the most we've conceded since 24 against Port in Round 1 (60% efficiency - also the highest we've conceded this year).

 

[Section 5]

From memory they kicked 4 from centre clearances which is really bad for us and the blame mostly needs to go onto the mids. But definitely agree that we defended poorly starting from the midfield being too aggressive which also allowed us to kick 19 goals

Was that not achieved in about a 6-minute period including time on adds etc. Also, in only 13 disposals.
So, yes, we need to fix that but i can't see that being a normal situation.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Was that not achieved in about a 6-minute period including time on adds etc. Also, in only 13 disposals.
So, yes, we need to fix that but i can't see that being a normal situation.

Fairly normal for us against top teams though

 

[Tom14]

Now that we've had a few days to bask in the glory of beating Collingwood, beating the top side and winning in Melbourne, a bit of critical analysis.

Most of the stat sheet looked pretty favourable to us... We had more disposals which is unusual for us, in any game. More inside 50s, more contested possessions AND uncontested possessions (this is VERY unusual for us to be ahead in both), a lot more marks (96-73) and more intercepts.

So a lot of the night looked like a Brisbane game.

Where I felt we came unstuck was defensively, which is probably pretty obvious given we conceded 100 points. Collingwood had 27 shots from 47 inside 50s, which at 57% efficiency is one of the highest rates we've conceded this season. We also conceded 17 marks inside 50 which is a lot - the most we've conceded since 24 against Port in Round 1 (60% efficiency - also the highest we've conceded this year).

I know a lot's been made in here about Jack Payne's performance and his recent form in general... Do we think this is all down to his personal form? Or do we think the ease at which Collingwood were able to mark inside 50 and convert entries to scores was more structure/pressure/system related?

My own recollection of the game (yet to watch a replay) is that I thought we did well to stifle their ball movement for much of the night. Apart from that patch in the third quarter where they really got on top of us for 10 minutes and were able to get good clean ball going forward.

So to still concede 100 points is a bit of a concern, particularly with Daicos and de Goey still to return.

Scoring 19 goals despite all that, and only breaking even in clearances, indicates our turnover game is in rude health, the best it's looked for 2 decades (and stats about scores from turnover/clearance etc weren't even kept back then). But are we kicking 19 goals against Collingwood with Darcy Moore back in the team? On the MCG?

Scores from stoppage (and centre bounce specifically) are my biggest concern. I'd add in our defenders not winning some key one on one contests, and some good bounces of the ball for collingwood, and that ended up in us conceding 100. We also really didn't control time in forward half because whenever we got a shot on goal we basically converted so that gave more oportunities for them to score out of centre bounce (us too obviously).

I agree that we need our defence to tighten up but in the two games we've played collingwood specifically we've scored 116 and 124 so maybe in this match up we are willing to play a more open game because we know we will have opportunities to score.

 

[rye]

melbourne is probably the most renowned defensive team that is seen as a contender and we have had no problems opening them up twice this year.

 

[Dalions]

Scores from stoppage (and centre bounce specifically) are my biggest concern. I'd add in our defenders not winning some key one on one contests, and some good bounces of the ball for collingwood, and that ended up in us conceding 100. We also really didn't control time in forward half because whenever we got a shot on goal we basically converted so that gave more oportunities for them to score out of centre bounce (us too obviously).

I agree that we need our defence to tighten up but in the two games we've played collingwood specifically we've scored 116 and 124 so maybe in this match up we are willing to play a more open game because we know we will have opportunities to score.

And also opportunity to create turn over, because Collingwood always give you a chance with the way they move the ball.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

Maynard should be penalised 50 metres every time he so much as looks at an umpire because his head is rude. That haircut of his is just plain silly at the back.

#Lester200
#FrogMarch
#LesterArmy

 

[twhowler]

A few interesting points on here.

I am concerned about our defence in recent weeks - conceding a lot of points. Hard to pinpoint a single reason. It does seem to come from lapses which seems to be us as a team.

But also I couldn't believe one of the marks Howe was allowed to mark. To me it clearly showed that Payne just has to be hampered - he really struggled to compete in that contest. It baffles me we didn't give him a rest at some point given how long he has had the injury. Joyce is no star but is adequate cover. We just have to hope he can recover enough from the pre finals bye i guess. But Payne now vs Payne v Carlton and around that period is a huge loss. He was one of the best in the comp.

I agreed with whomever made the point about opening Melbourne up. Managed to do it in 2 games. Could say similar v the Saints, still scored well and it was AWAY from the gabba.

The question has always been does it work in finals? In scrappier games with more numbers on the ball, a team that can stop someone scoring really well generally has a better time than a high scoring team.

So it got me thinking to our recent finals series.

2022 - Our scores were 106 / 92 / 49. The last game was dire but our scoring for the first was basically on a par with normal season

Average Season score 97.59. Average finals score 82.3 BUT average finals score apart from geelong 99

2021 - Finals scores Scores were 60 and 78

Average season score 96.9. Average finals score 69. This was our most disappointing series BUT also mitigated by the fact we had no Hipwood or McStay for the finals. We kicked long a lot then and it was hard to recover from. We won 68-54 inside 50s v the dogs.

SO in summary...

I think the first 2 finals last year showed we can still score well in September. Is that cherry picking given Richmond had a relatively poor defence and the dees had Lever struggling? Perhaps

But i think 2021 was also an outlier in terms of such a decimated attack.

I think the two things in our favour this year is our defence is better CAVEAT being it has been leaky of late and Payne needs to get better / lift.

And perhaps the biggest change in my opinion - we attack differently with 2 talls only. not as much bombing long. I think the biggest enemy of scoring in September was our bomb long strategy as it is easier to play against and thwart. Against the pies we scored 124 by good ball movement and lowering our eyes. Something we have often failed to do in general play an in particular in September.

In other words - no more Gunston please

 

[Grasshopper17]

A few interesting points on here.

I am concerned about our defence in recent weeks - conceding a lot of points. Hard to pinpoint a single reason. It does seem to come from lapses which seems to be us as a team.

But also I couldn't believe one of the marks Howe was allowed to mark. To me it clearly showed that Payne just has to be hampered - he really struggled to compete in that contest. It baffles me we didn't give him a rest at some point given how long he has had the injury. Joyce is no star but is adequate cover. We just have to hope he can recover enough from the pre finals bye i guess. But Payne now vs Payne v Carlton and around that period is a huge loss. He was one of the best in the comp.

I agreed with whomever made the point about opening Melbourne up. Managed to do it in 2 games. Could say similar v the Saints, still scored well and it was AWAY from the gabba.

The question has always been does it work in finals? In scrappier games with more numbers on the ball, a team that can stop someone scoring really well generally has a better time than a high scoring team.

So it got me thinking to our recent finals series.

2022 - Our scores were 106 / 92 / 49. The last game was dire but our scoring for the first was basically on a par with normal season

Average Season score 97.59. Average finals score 82.3 BUT average finals score apart from geelong 99

2021 - Finals scores Scores were 60 and 78

Average season score 96.9. Average finals score 69. This was our most disappointing series BUT also mitigated by the fact we had no Hipwood or McStay for the finals. We kicked long a lot then and it was hard to recover from. We won 68-54 inside 50s v the dogs.

SO in summary...

I think the first 2 finals last year showed we can still score well in September. Is that cherry picking given Richmond had a relatively poor defence and the dees had Lever struggling? Perhaps

But i think 2021 was also an outlier in terms of such a decimated attack.

I think the two things in our favour this year is our defence is better CAVEAT being it has been leaky of late and Payne needs to get better / lift.

And perhaps the biggest change in my opinion - we attack differently with 2 talls only. not as much bombing long. I think the biggest enemy of scoring in September was our bomb long strategy as it is easier to play against and thwart. Against the pies we scored 124 by good ball movement and lowering our eyes. Something we have often failed to do in general play an in particular in September.

In other words - no more Gunston please

The key difference in our system this year is our ability to score from turnover. Previous years we were very reliant on scoring from stoppages, so if we weren't able to score from clearances, that was really the end of it.

That improved ability to be able to (a) intercept the ball and (b) score from those intercepts has helped us score more heavily, defend better, and look better doing both.