Autopsy Round 5, 2021: Hawthorn defeated by Melbourne

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hardway

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If not for the umpires we win the geeLong game for sure, and gunston would of helped tremendously against freo. He had a crazy season last year in a worse performing side. Against dees if we had him we go up by 4-5 goals more and again umpires made an impact for the dees. Gunston day Sicily make Enormous difference to the team. Umpires have screwed us hard all year long.
If we were serious about beating Freo we would’ve activated the medical
Sub. Don’t think winning games is the number 1 priority this season.
 

Brishawk

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All game Melbourne seemed to have extra numbers going through the centre corridor while we were generally forced out to the wings. Generally they had their spare in the middle while we pushed our behind the ball. Eventually they were able to use that extra in the middle to cause problems
I didn’t watch the whole game but basically we ball watch. The opposition back a player to win the ball and get goal side so as soon as they do win the ball they are in space. We are not clean enough for players to do that but there has to be more awareness of what opposition players are doing.

Here is an example.

1. Boundary throw in and you can see we have made it a four on one on the inside and they have numbers on the outside. The ball spills out and if not for Harry Morrison screaming in from off camera we would have given up an easy attacking clearance.
656331A0-FC64-4EDF-9AC1-503723AF9652.jpeg

2. Moments later Worpel starts defensive side of pettracca but gets caught ball watching and pettracca pushes forward anticipating the demons spilling the ball forward
69DA7E38-7CBB-49A6-8B3D-C5E618CF1A36.jpeg

3. Worpel works hard to catch up to perrracca and then even gets defensive side of him...for a while. The balls spills around for a while with both sides struggling to get clean possession. Pettracca gambles on his side winning the ball forward. Worpel notices too late and points for someone to pick him up but all his team mates were equally afflicted by ball watching hence they didn’t notice Charlie so Argo had crept goal side. Once he has it there is an easy out to pe
3461DD02-AEF7-47B8-98EF-F3D669A37782.jpeg

95221FBA-DF6B-4A63-B00A-181A28EC9D9D.jpeg

We get done on the outside so often because we are dumb as sh*t about how we approach contests. It makes us look slow but it isn’t like pettracca or spargo were sprinting. They just got to spots that would make it easy for team mates to get them the ball and give them a chance of a clean takeaway. We just crowd the ball so that even when we win it we have no chance to move it quickly and cleanly as we are standing right next to our team mates and probably one or two opposition players. Can’t understand why we still have a problem with this as it is a feature of our play for years.
 

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Roby

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I didn’t watch the whole game but basically we ball watch. The opposition back a player to win the ball and get goal side so as soon as they do win the ball they are in space. We are not clean enough for players to do that but there has to be more awareness of what opposition players are doing.

Here is an example.

1. Boundary throw in and you can see we have made it a four on one on the inside and they have numbers on the outside. The ball spills out and if not for Harry Morrison screaming in from off camera we would have given up an easy attacking clearance.View attachment 1106554
2. Moments later Worpel starts defensive side of pettracca but gets caught ball watching and pettracca pushes forward anticipating the demons spilling the ball forward
View attachment 1106553
3. Worpel works hard to catch up to perrracca and then even gets defensive side of him...for a while. The balls spills around for a while with both sides struggling to get clean possession. Pettracca gambles on his side winning the ball forward. Worpel notices too late and points for someone to pick him up but all his team mates were equally afflicted by ball watching hence they didn’t notice Charlie so Argo had crept goal side. Once he has it there is an easy out to pe
View attachment 1106555
View attachment 1106556
We get done on the outside so often because we are dumb as sh*t about how we approach contests. It makes us look slow but it isn’t like pettracca or spargo were sprinting. They just got to spots that would make it easy for team mates to get them the ball and give them a chance of a clean takeaway. We just crowd the ball so that even when we win it we have no chance to move it quickly and cleanly as we are standing right next to our team mates and probably one or two opposition players. Can’t understand why we still have a problem with this as it is a feature of our play for years.
Hawks didn't have any petrol left. Pointing that out stoppages are bad at that time in the game is pointless.
 

Brishawk

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Hawks didn't have any petrol left. Pointing that out stoppages are bad at that time in the game is pointless.
I have literally been posting the same sort of screen shots for several years now. It happens every game all through the game. Look at the second last shot. Petracca jogged passed all of those players. No one noticed. We don’t set up to defend it once the ball is in broke.

I can find some first quarter examples I’m sure. We ball watch and get burned by it over and over. No doubt we don’t want Finn going down this path so we have him tagging at vfl level. Worpel is trying to learn how to defend at AFL level but as you can see it is a work in progress.

The same thing holds in general play.
 
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Pessimistic

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I didn’t watch the whole game but basically we ball watch. The opposition back a player to win the ball and get goal side so as soon as they do win the ball they are in space. We are not clean enough for players to do that but there has to be more awareness of what opposition players are doing.

Here is an example.

1. Boundary throw in and you can see we have made it a four on one on the inside and they have numbers on the outside. The ball spills out and if not for Harry Morrison screaming in from off camera we would have given up an easy attacking clearance.View attachment 1106554
2. Moments later Worpel starts defensive side of pettracca but gets caught ball watching and pettracca pushes forward anticipating the demons spilling the ball forward
View attachment 1106553
3. Worpel works hard to catch up to perrracca and then even gets defensive side of him...for a while. The balls spills around for a while with both sides struggling to get clean possession. Pettracca gambles on his side winning the ball forward. Worpel notices too late and points for someone to pick him up but all his team mates were equally afflicted by ball watching hence they didn’t notice Charlie so Argo had crept goal side. Once he has it there is an easy out to pe
View attachment 1106555
View attachment 1106556
We get done on the outside so often because we are dumb as sh*t about how we approach contests. It makes us look slow but it isn’t like pettracca or spargo were sprinting. They just got to spots that would make it easy for team mates to get them the ball and give them a chance of a clean takeaway. We just crowd the ball so that even when we win it we have no chance to move it quickly and cleanly as we are standing right next to our team mates and probably one or two opposition players. Can’t understand why we still have a problem with this as it is a feature of our play for years.
Reminds me of finals 2015. in QF we got sucked into the contest time and time again and the eagles got the outside ball easily

In the Grand final we completely reversed that. Mind you bringing Mr Skyball Priddis for them probably helped us a bit
 

Roby

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I have literally been posting the same sort of screen shots for several three are now. It happens every game all through the game. Look at the second last shot. Petracca jogged passed all of those players. No one noticed. We don’t set up to defend it once the ball is in broke.

I can find some first quarter examples I’m sure. We ball watch and get burned by it over and over. No doubt we don’t want Finn going down this path so we have him tagging at vfl level. Worpel is trying to learn how to defend at AFL level but as you can see it is a work in progress.

The same thing holds in general play.
Show the first quarter ones
 

TylerDurden

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I didn’t watch the whole game but basically we ball watch. The opposition back a player to win the ball and get goal side so as soon as they do win the ball they are in space. We are not clean enough for players to do that but there has to be more awareness of what opposition players are doing.

Here is an example.

1. Boundary throw in and you can see we have made it a four on one on the inside and they have numbers on the outside. The ball spills out and if not for Harry Morrison screaming in from off camera we would have given up an easy attacking clearance.View attachment 1106554
2. Moments later Worpel starts defensive side of pettracca but gets caught ball watching and pettracca pushes forward anticipating the demons spilling the ball forward
View attachment 1106553
3. Worpel works hard to catch up to perrracca and then even gets defensive side of him...for a while. The balls spills around for a while with both sides struggling to get clean possession. Pettracca gambles on his side winning the ball forward. Worpel notices too late and points for someone to pick him up but all his team mates were equally afflicted by ball watching hence they didn’t notice Charlie so Argo had crept goal side. Once he has it there is an easy out to pe
View attachment 1106555
View attachment 1106556
We get done on the outside so often because we are dumb as sh*t about how we approach contests. It makes us look slow but it isn’t like pettracca or spargo were sprinting. They just got to spots that would make it easy for team mates to get them the ball and give them a chance of a clean takeaway. We just crowd the ball so that even when we win it we have no chance to move it quickly and cleanly as we are standing right next to our team mates and probably one or two opposition players. Can’t understand why we still have a problem with this as it is a feature of our play for years.
Bees to the honey pot, and ball watching, have killed many a side. The sh*t sides do it every week.
 

Simon Crawshay

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8 of the marks were contested pack marks. Was a sight to behold. As good a game as you'll see from a ruckman. BB tried his best, but he's just not big enough. And this guy is in the absolute prime of his career.
Kind of glad we didn't debut Reeves against Max as it could have caused some long term psychological scarring to get towled up by the best in the business on your first game.
 

View from the nosebleed

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Slow blokes in the middle and on the wings. Somethings got to give.

Imagine CJ and Jars thru the midfield. We would look so different. We need zip so badly in the midfield. Everyone has it. We don't and it looks like we don't care about it. We can't chase opponents down when we lose possession. It's a major issue and stood out like dogs balls at the ground.

Plus none of our mids are damaging with the footy which compounds the problem. We haven't been able to kick goals now for 2 years. It is the midfield cattle that is the problem. Change the cattle. Mark a hard call on a big name.

Thankfully for us, we have a truckload of Half backs on our list that we could actually facilitate a move of both Impey and CJ into the middle/wing. Sicily still to come back, Granger-Barrass to come in to the defence, Greaves can play there, young Pepper is showing a fair bit at Box Hill in defence, whilst Will Day will also come back later this year. Its one area we do have depth!!
 
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Roby

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Thankfully for us, we have a truckload of Half backs on our list that we could actually facilitate a move of both Impey and CJ into the middle wings. Sicily still to come back, Granger-Barrass to come in to the defence, Greaves can play there, young Pepper is showing a fair bit at Box Hill in defence, whilst Will Day will also come back later this year. Its one area we do have depth!!
I'm starting to think DGB might need to play up forward and then transition to midfield.
 

Brishawk

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Show the first quarter ones
1. 18:29 Breust, Wingard, Howe, Shiels, Moore and Omega all move towards the fall of the ball at the same time and creates a cloud of 7 hawks players - only O'meara has the sense not to right right into the heart of the ball drop. Those 7 are defended on the side by four demons leaving Oliver, Brayshaw and Tomlinson outside the contest ready to receive. Worpel is contest side of Petracca, which is dumb because if he stayed defensive side he can force petracca to either run at the contest or towards the hawthorn goal. From where he is he has no chance of stopping him if the dees win the ball and petracca takes off towards their goal.

IF we win the ball we are going to be very fortunate to do anything other than either slap it on the boot, rush a handball, get tackled or run into a team mate. If the dees win it they have players in the clear who can move the ball out of defence. O'meara ends up with the ball, forces a handball to Breust, who feeds it to Howe, who slaps it on his boot under extreme pressure and kicks a behind. You will notice Moore has decided to get close enough to the ball to give O'meara a cuddle. Howe almost made it there...
1618822423737.png

1618823105580.png

1618823190983.png

1618823666602.png

Imagine what would happen if Howe had stayed one meter towards goal. He gets a shot off for goal which less pressure and more time. Probably kicks it. Now imagine if Oliver is marginally closer to Howe and knocks the ball out of the contest...you can see the player with the fluro yellow shoes (Langdon) probably comes in and gets it and there is hunt (I think) and Viney with only Wingard to give it to. They are going to clear it out of defence.

There seems no good advantage to closing in on the ball like this and every chance the opposition is going to get a clean takeaway if they get it outside the congestion.
 

Roger Rogerson

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Thankfully for us, we have a truckload of Half backs on our list that we could actually facilitate a move of both Impey and CJ into the middle/wing. Sicily still to come back, Granger-Barrass to come in to the defence, Greaves can play there, young Pepper is showing a fair bit at Box Hill in defence, whilst Will Day will also come back later this year. Its one area we do have depth!!
Agree re HBF depth which is why I am hopeful it might happen later in the year.

With the 6 6 6 rule winning a running centre clearance is super valuable in terms of scoring opportunity. We just can't do it.
 

rei154

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1. 18:29 Breust, Wingard, Howe, Shiels, Moore and Omega all move towards the fall of the ball at the same time and creates a cloud of 7 hawks players - only O'meara has the sense not to right right into the heart of the ball drop. Those 7 are defended on the side by four demons leaving Oliver, Brayshaw and Tomlinson outside the contest ready to receive. Worpel is contest side of Petracca, which is dumb because if he stayed defensive side he can force petracca to either run at the contest or towards the hawthorn goal. From where he is he has no chance of stopping him if the dees win the ball and petracca takes off towards their goal.

IF we win the ball we are going to be very fortunate to do anything other than either slap it on the boot, rush a handball, get tackled or run into a team mate. If the dees win it they have players in the clear who can move the ball out of defence. O'meara ends up with the ball, forces a handball to Breust, who feeds it to Howe, who slaps it on his boot under extreme pressure and kicks a behind. You will notice Moore has decided to get close enough to the ball to give O'meara a cuddle. Howe almost made it there...
View attachment 1106683
View attachment 1106700
View attachment 1106702
View attachment 1106713
Imagine what would happen if Howe had stayed one meter towards goal. He gets a shot off for goal which less pressure and more time. Probably kicks it. Now imagine if Oliver is marginally closer to Howe and knocks the ball out of the contest...you can see the player with the fluro yellow shoes (Langdon) probably comes in and gets it and there is hunt (I think) and Viney with only Wingard to give it to. They are going to clear it out of defence.

There seems no good advantage to closing in on the ball like this and every chance the opposition is going to get a clean takeaway if they get it outside the congestion.
Jeez these posts are elite. Enjoy them as much as reading the off-season specialist posts.
 

Brishawk

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Show the first quarter ones
1. 12:39 Mitchell goes for a loose ball. You can see Langdon is worried about Morrison and rushes to catch up with him.
1618824607711.png

2. ...and in rush the hawks. (Notice Langdon gives up on Morrison and stays wide as an outlet where he can really hurt us. Morrison is not going to do anything but quickly kick it forward from where he is even if he gets a clean ball to him).
1618824230010.png

3. And we get closer...
1618824250140.png

4. and closer...
1618824281410.png

5. and closer...until we have a 6 v 3 within 1-1.5m of the ball. Honestly, what on earth is going on?? Notice Melbourne form a nice shape around the contest.
1618824342654.png

6. And then despite our superior numbers, Viney wins the ball...
1618824384610.png

7. And McEvoy decides to get closer for a better look in case we don't have enough players at the contest.
1618824414820.png

8. And despite our superior numbers McDonald wins the ball...hmm seems like a pattern already...
1618824436301.png

9. We throw two into the tackle because...a stationary player in a crowd is a real break away threat...I guess we want to stop him deposing the ball...
1618824475291.png

10. McDonald disposes the ball..but TOB to the rescue!
1618824680127.png

11. Tob is immediately tackled and hacks it forward along the ground. Really, it ws the only ay we were ever going to get it out of there as all our players were on the inside of Melbourne players. You can see that Moore was contest side of Salem. So Salem can easily turn and get back to the contest ahead of Moore.
1618824738142.png

12. And that is what he does. Notice Melbourne keep a nice shape around the contest. All three hawks on their feet are looking at the ball. O'Meara probably needed to go to Viney here...If Salen wins it he can go by hand to Brayshaw , who has support outside him and Viney ahead of him. Lots of options. If we win it, we got no where to go but to a player next to us.
1618824762526.png

13. But Salem, who is not surrounded by 5 team mates, is able to pick up the ball and run out the other side of the contest where absolutely no one is in his way.
1618824800566.png

14. At this point hawks supporters are probably thinking we are slow but you can see that we give Salem a good head start because we were too fixated on being in at the contest and din't look to cover any of his escape routes.
1618824840159.png

15. And here we are just chasing players around we gave a head start to.
1618824863586.png

16. And Salem with plenty of time to assess option. Fortunately for the Hawks our defence was set so he has to kick to a contest.
1618824907025.png

Things to note:
1. we regularly outnumbered Melbourne at the contest but were outnumbered outside.
2. Melbourne have a clear structure they impose around contests.
3. We play stacks on the footy.
4. We give ourselves little chance of getting a clean takeaway from this kind of contest.
5. Melbourne are setup to get clean takeaway whenever they are good enough to win the ball.

IT isn't rocket science and it is a long term issue for us.
 

HawkXNtric

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Hey Brishawk, I really appreciate you posting those photos and commentary. It definitely assists in understanding why we are regularly getting flogged around the contest and why we seem to have so few players able to spread from the contest at times.

That first photo is ridiculous - it's basically 7 Hawks against 4 Dees, but with the other 3 Dees ready for the outside receive or intercept. Even if one of the 4 Hawks won the ball (which they did on this occasion), there is no room to get a clean disposal. And of course we know that this generally means hacking a rushed high loopy mongrel punt 25m towards the boundary line, or directing a handball to the feet of a team-mate standing stationary 2 metres away.

The questions are; why does this happen regularly and what are the coaches/players doing to fix this? Is it just part of the players learning the game and developing synergy and confidence in each other? Do we have a lot of dumb players? Is it the coaching? I don't know. All I know is that when you watch really good teams, something they have in common is the ability to regularly have less players in at the contest, but still force the ball out, while having quality ball users free on the outside of the contest to launch an attack.

I'm sure the coaches are on to this and it is largely an inexperience/lack of confidence thing, but it would be great to see some improvement in this area over the course of the season. And of course it helps if we have players that can regularly physically impact the contest such that team-mates have the confidence to not feel the need to rush in.

Anyway, thanks Brishawk for the in-depth photos and comments.
 

Roby

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1. 12:39 Mitchell goes for a loose ball. You can see Langdon is worried about Morrison and rushes to catch up with him.
View attachment 1106739
2. ...and in rush the hawks. (Notice Langdon gives up on Morrison and stays wide as an outlet where he can really hurt us. Morrison is not going to do anything but quickly kick it forward from where he is even if he gets a clean ball to him).
View attachment 1106717
3. And we get closer...
View attachment 1106718
4. and closer...
View attachment 1106722
5. and closer...until we have a 6 v 3 within 1-1.5m of the ball. Honestly, what on earth is going on?? Notice Melbourne form a nice shape around the contest.
View attachment 1106723
6. And then despite our superior numbers, Viney wins the ball...
View attachment 1106728
7. And McEvoy decides to get closer for a better look in case we don't have enough players at the contest.
View attachment 1106729
8. And despite our superior numbers McDonald wins the ball...hmm seems like a pattern already...
View attachment 1106732
9. We throw two into the tackle because...a stationary player in a crowd is a real break away threat...I guess we want to stop him deposing the ball...
View attachment 1106736
10. McDonald disposes the ball..but TOB to the rescue!
View attachment 1106742
11. Tob is immediately tackled and hacks it forward along the ground. Really, it ws the only ay we were ever going to get it out of there as all our players were on the inside of Melbourne players. You can see that Moore was contest side of Salem. So Salem can easily turn and get back to the contest ahead of Moore.
View attachment 1106743
12. And that is what he does. Notice Melbourne keep a nice shape around the contest. All three hawks on their feet are looking at the ball. O'Meara probably needed to go to Viney here...If Salen wins it he can go by hand to Brayshaw , who has support outside him and Viney ahead of him. Lots of options. If we win it, we got no where to go but to a player next to us.
View attachment 1106744
13. But Salem, who is not surrounded by 5 team mates, is able to pick up the ball and run out the other side of the contest where absolutely no one is in his way.
View attachment 1106746
14. At this point hawks supporters are probably thinking we are slow but you can see that we give Salem a good head start because we were too fixated on being in at the contest and din't look to cover any of his escape routes.
View attachment 1106748
15. And here we are just chasing players around we gave a head start to.
View attachment 1106751
16. And Salem with plenty of time to assess option. Fortunately for the Hawks our defence was set so he has to kick to a contest.
View attachment 1106752
Things to note:
1. we regularly outnumbered Melbourne at the contest but were outnumbered outside.
2. Melbourne have a clear structure they impose around contests.
3. We play stacks on the footy.
4. We give ourselves little chance of getting a clean takeaway from this kind of contest.
5. Melbourne are setup to get clean takeaway whenever they are good enough to win the ball.

IT isn't rocket science and it is a long term issue for us.
So it happened ONCE? Not really an issue. Also it's inside 50. You win the ball there you have a shot at goal. A better example would be stoppage on the wing, this is a terrible example.

Sorry you've wasted so much time to find nothing but you've just countered your point.
 

Brishawk

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Hey Brishawk, I really appreciate you posting those photos and commentary. It definitely assists in understanding why we are regularly getting flogged around the contest and why we seem to have so few players able to spread from the contest at times.

That first photo is ridiculous - it's basically 7 Hawks against 4 Dees, but with the other 3 Dees ready for the outside receive or intercept. Even if one of the 4 Hawks won the ball (which they did on this occasion), there is no room to get a clean disposal. And of course we know that this generally means hacking a rushed high loopy mongrel punt 25m towards the boundary line, or directing a handball to the feet of a team-mate standing stationary 2 metres away.

The questions are; why does this happen regularly and what are the coaches/players doing to fix this? Is it just part of the players learning the game and developing synergy and confidence in each other? Do we have a lot of dumb players? Is it the coaching? I don't know. All I know is that when you watch really good teams, something they have in common is the ability to regularly have less players in at the contest, but still force the ball out, while having quality ball users free on the outside of the contest to launch an attack.

I'm sure the coaches are on to this and it is largely an inexperience/lack of confidence thing, but it would be great to see some improvement in this area over the course of the season. And of course it helps if we have players that can regularly physically impact the contest such that team-mates have the confidence to not feel the need to rush in.

Anyway, thanks Brishawk for the in-depth photos and comments.
As TD pointed out, this is a very common trait of bad teams. I can't say what the coaches are doing as I don't know. But we have been doing this for several years, although we clean it up from time to time. I think it is a sort of natural instinct for most players as they just want to help win the ball and get it to a team mate. These were both inside our forward fifty and all th mids probably read big footy and how they didn't kick enough goals and just want to address that stat ;) But the problem is we don't have awareness of the threat posed by players outside us. We aren't even looking for it in these passages of play. I get that a guy like Mitchell or Worpel or even O'meara are going to think that the inside of the contest is where they belong but if Morrison gets their first they have to stay out and let him win the ball or cover off the outside options of the opposition. This isn't all on them of course, just using them as an example.

I think we as a team are much more willing to force a ball up so crowding the ball is a way to help that happen. Other teams now try and keep players outside and then just try to dump it out to them any way they can. The dogs in 2016 were the masters of drawing two or three into a tackle and then chucking it out to a team mate. Same concept except most teams can do it without chucking the ball. Our tactic, if it is in anyway deliberate, is outdated and needs to be scrapped. Not saying it is deliberate but the way we played v the demons has to be exorcised ;)
 

Brishawk

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So it happened ONCE? Not really an issue. Also it's inside 50. You win the ball there you have a shot at goal. A better example would be stoppage on the wing, this is a terrible example.

Sorry you've wasted so much time to find nothing but you've just countered your point.
You are one disappointing human being. I'm not going to post every time we over committed to the contest. Go do it yourself. I have posted two clear examples of how we approach contests and how Melbourne do it (from the first quarter as asked for). Plus the ones from the last quarter, which you wrote off as us being tired. If that isn't enough, go look at my posts last year or from 2019 first half of the season when we were doing it then too.
 

CHUBBSS

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I didn’t watch the whole game but basically we ball watch. The opposition back a player to win the ball and get goal side so as soon as they do win the ball they are in space. We are not clean enough for players to do that but there has to be more awareness of what opposition players are doing.

Here is an example.

1. Boundary throw in and you can see we have made it a four on one on the inside and they have numbers on the outside. The ball spills out and if not for Harry Morrison screaming in from off camera we would have given up an easy attacking clearance.View attachment 1106554
2. Moments later Worpel starts defensive side of pettracca but gets caught ball watching and pettracca pushes forward anticipating the demons spilling the ball forward
View attachment 1106553
3. Worpel works hard to catch up to perrracca and then even gets defensive side of him...for a while. The balls spills around for a while with both sides struggling to get clean possession. Pettracca gambles on his side winning the ball forward. Worpel notices too late and points for someone to pick him up but all his team mates were equally afflicted by ball watching hence they didn’t notice Charlie so Argo had crept goal side. Once he has it there is an easy out to pe
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We get done on the outside so often because we are dumb as sh*t about how we approach contests. It makes us look slow but it isn’t like pettracca or spargo were sprinting. They just got to spots that would make it easy for team mates to get them the ball and give them a chance of a clean takeaway. We just crowd the ball so that even when we win it we have no chance to move it quickly and cleanly as we are standing right next to our team mates and probably one or two opposition players. Can’t understand why we still have a problem with this as it is a feature of our play for years.
Pretty damning for Howe here, quality post to
 

Yardie

Club Legend
Feb 6, 2004
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So it happened ONCE? Not really an issue. Also it's inside 50. You win the ball there you have a shot at goal. A better example would be stoppage on the wing, this is a terrible example.

Sorry you've wasted so much time to find nothing but you've just countered your point.
You asked and he showed two very good examples of us collapsing in, while the opposition holds their position.

Learn to admit you were wrong. It's not hard and you'll be a better person for it in the long run.
 

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