Before he met Peterson?
Maybe I’ve just found the issue!
Analysis Rucks, do they matter and does ours suck?
- Thread starter George Kramer
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Maybe I’ve just found the issue!
- Oct 2, 2022
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Melbourne only gave up a second round pick for Grundy, and his previous side had to pay much of his salary in order to get a side to take him.
- Aug 30, 2021
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- #78
It’s been explained as to why.
As for Melbourne, they are still paying him. They’ve already got a gun ruck and will be playing both during the same game, so clearly a club who won a flag 2 years ago values rucks.
Would you use a second round pick on a ruck?
Golumless
A bigger deal out west.
No doubt he is. 2021 contract, off a BNF winning year and at a club that needed to claw their way to the 95% threshold moving forward.
It's certainly likely he is around Sloane/Laird mark for money earned this contract, though it may have been heavily front-loaded.
Kane McGoodwin
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Yeah, nah.
ROB isn't in our top 3 earners... but comfortably in our top 10 & overpaid for his output.
I’ve said before that rucks are kind of part of the midfield depth. If you have a very good ruck, particularly one that provides production around the ground, it’s a positive and means you might be able to afford a slightly more shallow midfield
If your ruck is average, however, you better hope your midfield is top notch
If your ruck is average, however, you better hope your midfield is top notch
Golumless
A bigger deal out west.
I wouldn't put it past us. That money we'd freed via burning our list down in '20 had to go somewhere. ROB was an early extension in '21 at a time where the club needes to spend money, alongside being Victorian, BnF winner, at a poor team (and one trying to shred a rep. of being a stepping stone), and seen as a key player moving forward.
ROB likely had us by the balls and got paid for it, and good on him if he did.
- Oct 2, 2022
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People have expressed different opinions, yes.
They have two extraordinary tall men, and it's going to be interesting to see how they work together. I'm not convinced either works as well spending the majority of the game as a forward (Melb and Coll has tried that previously). But I think it was a good pivot from Melbourne - once they knew Jackson was leaving, bringing in Grundy was a smart idea. They are paying him less than Jackson at Freo, they spent a 2nd to get him and got two extra 1sts from Freo - and arguable got a better player in Grundy (at least at the moment).
I would spend $650k on a ruck and I would spend a 2nd round pick on one too.
I'd prefer to do that in two year's time.
- Aug 5, 2013
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I've long thought that rucks are strictly grouped into tiers. Elite Ruck > Experienced Ruck > Full-Time Ruck > Part-Time Ruck (Generally picked for another reason, but does have experience as first ruck) > Ad-Hoc Ruck (Tallest Random player, only doing the job because someone has to).
Any ruck from the tier above on their worst day will still generally beat the tier below on their best day. Form only really comes into it with like-for-like ruck duels.
ROB goes fully into the third group. He's not good enough to take it to the best in the comp or even average old-timers, but can make bank on his natural advantage over non-rucks.
Any ruck from the tier above on their worst day will still generally beat the tier below on their best day. Form only really comes into it with like-for-like ruck duels.
ROB goes fully into the third group. He's not good enough to take it to the best in the comp or even average old-timers, but can make bank on his natural advantage over non-rucks.
Having a good Ruck matters, they don't have to be elite but need to do their role.
ROB only just does that and I agree we probably overpaid but everyone overpays for big men. If I was list management I'd be targeting other areas first in the next few years with a view to bringing in a ruckman in a few years time.
I think it's worth having a developing ruckman on your list if you think they will improve as they can have value at the trade table but it's most likely going to be targeting an existing ruckman when the time is right.
ROB only just does that and I agree we probably overpaid but everyone overpays for big men. If I was list management I'd be targeting other areas first in the next few years with a view to bringing in a ruckman in a few years time.
I think it's worth having a developing ruckman on your list if you think they will improve as they can have value at the trade table but it's most likely going to be targeting an existing ruckman when the time is right.
- Aug 9, 2019
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ROB has more than held his own against the likes of Goldstein, Nankervis, McEvoy, Lycett and the like who I guess you are referring to here.
The ROB beat up is getting ridiculous now.
For me, ROB needs to break even in ruck contests but needs to get back to his best form where he is clunking marks around the ground like he did in his B&F year.
Seems to have lost that ability over the last couple of years.
The intercept marks in defence and the target out of D50. Clunk those and his ruck work doesn't matter as much.
Seems to have lost that ability over the last couple of years.
The intercept marks in defence and the target out of D50. Clunk those and his ruck work doesn't matter as much.
- Aug 30, 2021
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- #88
Did any of those rucks get dropped last year?
That’s what you’re ignoring, no one is saying he hasn’t played some good games, he has. But the majority of last year stank and he offers nothing if he isn’t playing well.
- Oct 11, 2012
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Exhibit A: Geelong GF rucks, how do you rate them?
No
Yes (but so does pretty much everyone else's)
I know the ROB bashers love a good set of stats and a ranking list, so here goes.
I have ranked rucks based upon their average ranking for the key stats of hit outs, hit outs as % of ruck contests, hit outs to advantage, hit outs to advantage as % of hitouts (which seemed a bit of a silly denominator, so I also included), hit outs as % of ruck contests, disposals, marks, clearances and tackles.
I have included both absolute and % ruck stats for 2 reasons:
1. They're rucks. Ruck stats should count for more than non-ruck stats
2. Rucks who ruck all day (Witts, Darcy, ROB, English) should get better overall ruck stats (that's not fair, it overstates ROB's value!), but they also don't require a genuine 2nd ruck (and probably have lower % stats than if they were fresher). Playing a 2nd ruck means someone else misses out, generally a fringe midfielder or fringe key forward. For us in the first half of 2022, that was Soligo, Cook or Fog (ooh, that's kind of valuable). Including both absolute and relative stats provides value for both ruck types, but is weighted more to the part timers in this list.
I have restricted rucks to those that have played 10 games or more and who averaged more than 20 ruck contests per game. Coleman-Jones was the cut-off (10 games and 25.4 ruck contests per game). As it's a ranking it probably doesn't matter too much anyway, but it keeps the outliers and forwards from confusing the data.
ROB comes in at 5th on this very broad approach. If we just did the relative stats, ROB would be ranked 8th, which probably feels more realistic. I'd consider Darcy to be the cut-off for elite rucks, but ROB above average. That's how bad rucks are.
Preuss is the surprise for me, but his ruck game particularly is pretty strong.
Rankings:
Base data:
Yes (but so does pretty much everyone else's)
I know the ROB bashers love a good set of stats and a ranking list, so here goes.
I have ranked rucks based upon their average ranking for the key stats of hit outs, hit outs as % of ruck contests, hit outs to advantage, hit outs to advantage as % of hitouts (which seemed a bit of a silly denominator, so I also included), hit outs as % of ruck contests, disposals, marks, clearances and tackles.
I have included both absolute and % ruck stats for 2 reasons:
1. They're rucks. Ruck stats should count for more than non-ruck stats
2. Rucks who ruck all day (Witts, Darcy, ROB, English) should get better overall ruck stats (that's not fair, it overstates ROB's value!), but they also don't require a genuine 2nd ruck (and probably have lower % stats than if they were fresher). Playing a 2nd ruck means someone else misses out, generally a fringe midfielder or fringe key forward. For us in the first half of 2022, that was Soligo, Cook or Fog (ooh, that's kind of valuable). Including both absolute and relative stats provides value for both ruck types, but is weighted more to the part timers in this list.
I have restricted rucks to those that have played 10 games or more and who averaged more than 20 ruck contests per game. Coleman-Jones was the cut-off (10 games and 25.4 ruck contests per game). As it's a ranking it probably doesn't matter too much anyway, but it keeps the outliers and forwards from confusing the data.
ROB comes in at 5th on this very broad approach. If we just did the relative stats, ROB would be ranked 8th, which probably feels more realistic. I'd consider Darcy to be the cut-off for elite rucks, but ROB above average. That's how bad rucks are.
Preuss is the surprise for me, but his ruck game particularly is pretty strong.
Rankings:
Base data:
Unfortunately ROB is the type of player that’s has to play well, otherwise he stands out like a beacon
Berry, Fog and Soligo all got dropped. All finished top 10 in our B&F.
Getting dropped doesn't have the weight that you think it does. Sometimes players play 2's to work on their games.
Sure, ROB didn't get better (except for beating up on part time Geelong rucks). But that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't playing ok football, just not what the coaches think he could be playing.
- Aug 30, 2021
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- #93
Oh wow, you’re really comparing dropping a key senior player to Berry and Soligo? Especially Soligo a first year player and when he returned he stayed in it. Berry wasn’t dropped, he wasn’t selected but when he returned he stayed in the team too. Both had excellent years when they returned, unlike ROB.
As for Fog, yeah he sucked early and then came back a superstar.
Come on, ROB didn’t play ok. Coaches award votes for playing your role. Despite playing 20 games he didn’t make the top 10.
No offence mate, but your post has to be one of the most bizarre defences of a player I’ve read on here and there have been quite a few.
And Mutineer do you like any post that defends aspects of the club no matter how bad the post was?
- Moderator
- #94
I've always wondered why a coach hasn't tried just going with four midfielders and not playing a ruckman.
From what I can tell there's nothing in the rules that state you have to have a player actually contest the ruck.
Just have four mids and rove off the opposition ruckman.
Obviously knowing the AFL if someone were to try it with some success they'd just change the rules on the fly to outlaw it.
The point of the post was that getting dropped isn't the mic drop that you think it is. It isn't proof that ROB is a terrible player.
Scorpus
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- Apr 16, 2014
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- #96
The opposition ruck would spike the ball about 30m every time so your four mids would have to set up outside the contest and possibly outside the center square were it a center bounce
Unless the opposition ruck is super dumb of course
Scorpus
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- Apr 16, 2014
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- #97
It's interesting that the stats a ruck should be good at (hitouts to advantage, marks), O'Brien is mediocre, but in the stuff a midfielder should be good at (clearances, tackles) he's okay
Looks like we've been getting it wrong this whole time. O'Brien is actually a ruck rover and the tall midfielder we've been looking for! Bring in Strachan and play a center bounce of Strachan, O'Brien, Laird and Berry.
Gee I hope that’s sarcasm
jackster83
The leader of the bunch.
Going from winning a B&F to not finishing in the top ten and being dropped during the year is proof that he had a poor year though.
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Would’ve been more effective when grabbing the ball out of the ruck was considered prior opportunity.
(That rule reverted back in what, 2019 or so?)
But yeah definitely when that rule was in vogue, I’m surprised more teams didn’t try that.
Richmond loosely did that in the 2017 GF. I mean they “contested” the ruck but only with the view of making sure Grigg could swoop at ground level.
