Ryan Gardner is a good footballer - post your apologies here

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immortalmike

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He made a couple of mistakes, he wasn’t alone these things happen dozens of times every game. He also had some good moments where he looked quite composed. Singling out Gardner as the reason we lost is just lazy and unfair
That's not what I did though. I am discussing Gardner is a thread devoted to him. I'm not singling him out as to why we lost.
I said he isn't up to the level required and if you replaced him with someone who is AFL standard like Cordy we would have won. It's not his fault we lost It's those who pick non-afl standard players. It's an endemic problem bigger than Gardner himself.
Another example would be play Toby Maclean instead of Smith we win too. Obviously not possible with Tobes' injury.
 
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Norm De Guerre

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No he isn't.

If I look really hard for positives, I can see the athleticism that the match committee like about him. The problem is that I just don't see the glimpses of football nous that one would expect to see in any player struggling to establish himself into a teams best 22. Things that a then much rawer Lewis Young in his first handful of games at least managed and an attribute that you know for certain that the flawed Trengove brings to each game. In-fact Im struggling to think of many times where he intercepted or cut off an opposition teams forward attacks, let alone be the driving force of counter attacking out of defence. Something that modern KPD do with regularity and something that is the cornerstone of a Beveridge coaching philosophy that miraculously delivered us a premiership. Gardners inability to perform this role adequately only ramps up the pressure on the single quality KPD in Keath that we have on the list that the match Committee have been forced to go with. As we saw in stark relief on the weekend this only ramps up the pressure on Keith to do a task he was neither recruited for nor is suited to carry out.

Is it a fact that the match committee prefer Gardner over the next two likely but equally flawed candidates his fault? Nope, of course it isnt.

Is it a fact that the match committee are seemingly forced to play a guy that at this stage just isn't up to the rigours of the game at the highest level, because of a club wide historical ineptitude to recruit and develop quality tall's for both ends of the ground? You can bet your life it is.

For all of the moaning about the ruck and small forward situation that we do here. The real issue remains and it begins on the very last line of defence and that we are asking Ryan Gardner to fill this role is an indictment on the club not the player. If we dont address this fundamental weakness then we are are going to be stuck in mid table purgatory burning through the best mid-field that the club has assembled in its history and in the end have one modern day premiership to show for it.

Apologies.
 
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NBates

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Think I just heard Bob Murphy questioning Gardner's future.....he stuck up for Bruce (saying his true position is half forward flank). This was in response to unhappy Bulldog caller, but I missed hearing the caller speak....
 

wayniac

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I wouldn't give up on Gardner yet. When we drafted Hamling he wasn't too flash either. We used him in the forward line and he was soft and clueless.

With Hamling, the stars aligned in a very short period of time. He may have appeared to have blanked Buddy in the GF but Buddy scored a goal late in the game running off Hamling and that was with a bung ankle. At that point in the game I thought Buddy might turn it on but we managed to maintain possession.

Somebody coached Hamling well at Fremantle when he was on Naughton, he appeared to get away with a lot of niggles and Bevo complained at the time. That's what we need from our defenders, some smarts. I recall Matthew Scarlett saying that Roughy would be a champion defender and we played him out of position from that point on. He's a lumbering truck but holding down a key position at the Pies now.

Who's going to turn our rough diamonds into jewels?
 

TedDougChris

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I think there are a few major issues with Gardner that complicate the assessment of him.

1) His inexperience relative to his age - this is fine, hopefully he gets better with time and I think we have seen signs of improvement this year.
2) His repeated gifting of games when he has been poor to average in terms of his performance.
3) His repeated gifting of games when other, better options have been available, or haven't been offered the same opportunities for repeat games.

Without being unkind - Trengove in against the Saints - we win that game. Trengove would have taken out the body position and prevented King jumping and marking everything, could have contested ruck contests in D50 so we don't get two men up at the same time - conceding a goal; and spoiled the man, ball, pack and everything across the line when someone took a mark in the goal square.

Is Gardner improving - yes. Is he athletic and mobile - yes. Is he a good kick when under no pressure - yes. Can he spoil - yes he can.

But in all honesty, this year should have been a development year for him. Sadly, with COVID - that's been lost for a lot of people. But Lewis Young has played far better games and is far more flexible up forward. And doesn't get 10 - 15 games in a row to learn how to play his spot. Trengove is far better credentialled, but cannot get a game...

So any assessment of Gardner competes with our viewpoint that there is bias towards him and bias against other better candidates. Now - perhaps there are reasons. Perhaps L Young has said "I'm off back to SA", so we don't want to waste development (not saying I agree here, but just for discussions sake). But I'd have rather got 10 - 15 games into Young this year, who has shown more at both ends, would have allowed Naughton to switch back if needed etc - than Gardner.

Would I be happy with Gardner on the list next year - Yes, provided he is selected on merit like everyone else, which I don't think has happened this year.

I was really hoping we got D Howard last year, he and Keath would have set us up in the defensive posts for years...
 

Glaeken Oracle

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I wouldn't give up on Gardner yet. When we drafted Hamling he wasn't too flash either. We used him in the forward line and he was soft and clueless.

With Hamling, the stars aligned in a very short period of time. He may have appeared to have blanked Buddy in the GF but Buddy scored a goal late in the game running off Hamling and that was with a bung ankle. At that point in the game I thought Buddy might turn it on but we managed to maintain possession.

Somebody coached Hamling well at Fremantle when he was on Naughton, he appeared to get away with a lot of niggles and Bevo complained at the time. That's what we need from our defenders, some smarts. I recall Matthew Scarlett saying that Roughy would be a champion defender and we played him out of position from that point on. He's a lumbering truck but holding down a key position at the Pies now.

Who's going to turn our rough diamonds into jewels?

How exactly was Hamling "soft" in his early games? I don't recall him being soft. Looked a little lost in the first few, maybe, but still got confidence through getting his hands on the ball. In fact, Gardner has played 12 games, and Hamling played 11 in 2015, including the prelim.

Their stats for their first 11 games as comparison (not the only measure, but a good guide, seeing they both played largely the same role in 2015 vs 2020):

Contested possessions: Hamling 34, Gardner 18.
Frees for/against: H 5-4, G 3-10
Contested marks: H 11, G 1
1%ers: H67 G 66
Tackles: H 15, G 13
Rebounds: H22, G 6
Clangers: H 13, G17
Overall kicks/marks/handballs: H 64/53/47 G 32/21/30

Hamling wins many those hands-down, even allowing for shortened games.

I felt Hamling had something to work from at the end of 2015. Don't get the same vibe with Gardner. (Happy to be proven wrong though.)

(Btw, Franklin led to space and marked it and kicked a set shot, from a great kick out in front of him.)
 

wayniac

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How exactly was Hamling "soft" in his early games? I don't recall him being soft. Looked a little lost in the first few, maybe, but still got confidence through getting his hands on the ball. In fact, Gardner has played 12 games, and Hamling played 11 in 2015, including the prelim.

Their stats for their first 11 games as comparison (not the only measure, but a good guide, seeing they both played largely the same role in 2015 vs 2020):

Contested possessions: Hamling 34, Gardner 18.
Frees for/against: H 5-4, G 3-10
Contested marks: H 11, G 1
1%ers: H67 G 66
Tackles: H 15, G 13
Rebounds: H22, G 6
Clangers: H 13, G17
Overall kicks/marks/handballs: H 64/53/47 G 32/21/30

Hamling wins many those hands-down, even allowing for shortened games.

I felt Hamling had something to work from at the end of 2015. Don't get the same vibe with Gardner. (Happy to be proven wrong though.)

(Btw, Franklin led to space and marked it and kicked a set shot, from a great kick out in front of him.)
Maybe my judgement is clouded but late in 2016 we played against Geelong at GMHBA and Hamling was our worst player. Often a discard from a team plays out of his skin but Hamling didn't. As I said, the stars aligned, we avoided Geelong in the finals because they thrashed us twice in the home and away.

Hamling has improved a lot since he left the Dogs, his career stats bear that out.

Are your stats from 2015 for Hamling or 2016?
 

Hard Ball Get

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I think there are a few major issues with Gardner that complicate the assessment of him.

1) His inexperience relative to his age - this is fine, hopefully he gets better with time and I think we have seen signs of improvement this year.
2) His repeated gifting of games when he has been poor to average in terms of his performance.
3) His repeated gifting of games when other, better options have been available, or haven't been offered the same opportunities for repeat games.

Without being unkind - Trengove in against the Saints - we win that game. Trengove would have taken out the body position and prevented King jumping and marking everything, could have contested ruck contests in D50 so we don't get two men up at the same time - conceding a goal; and spoiled the man, ball, pack and everything across the line when someone took a mark in the goal square.

Is Gardner improving - yes. Is he athletic and mobile - yes. Is he a good kick when under no pressure - yes. Can he spoil - yes he can.

But in all honesty, this year should have been a development year for him. Sadly, with COVID - that's been lost for a lot of people. But Lewis Young has played far better games and is far more flexible up forward. And doesn't get 10 - 15 games in a row to learn how to play his spot. Trengove is far better credentialled, but cannot get a game...

So any assessment of Gardner competes with our viewpoint that there is bias towards him and bias against other better candidates. Now - perhaps there are reasons. Perhaps L Young has said "I'm off back to SA", so we don't want to waste development (not saying I agree here, but just for discussions sake). But I'd have rather got 10 - 15 games into Young this year, who has shown more at both ends, would have allowed Naughton to switch back if needed etc - than Gardner.

Would I be happy with Gardner on the list next year - Yes, provided he is selected on merit like everyone else, which I don't think has happened this year.

I was really hoping we got D Howard last year, he and Keath would have set us up in the defensive posts for years...
Trengove isn't that good. I don't think we win cut and dry with him in the team. If he is playing key defense, we aren't a finals team. It's amazing how he has become a 10X better player since he hasn't been getting a game.
 

Glaeken Oracle

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Maybe my judgement is clouded but late in 2016 we played against Geelong at GMHBA and Hamling was our worst player. Often a discard from a team plays out of his skin but Hamling didn't. As I said, the stars aligned, we avoided Geelong in the finals because they thrashed us twice in the home and away.

Hamling has improved a lot since he left the Dogs, his career stats bear that out.

Are your stats from 2015 for Hamling or 2016?

Hamling stats I quoted are for his 11 games of 2015 only (including the elim final).

His stats were marginally better in 2016, but he still only played 12 games in 2016 (4 of them finals), and only cemented his place in the team in round 19 (which is the Geelong game you refer to). On pure stats as nmbers, his 2017-18-19 seasons at Freo look better than his seasons with us, but I haven't watched him closely enough at Freo.


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Mantis Toboggan

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Trengove isn't that good. I don't think we win cut and dry with him in the team. If he is playing key defense, we aren't a finals team. It's amazing how he has become a 10X better player since he hasn't been getting a game.
The one game he played this year he came in and did the job people expected.

Nobody claims he’s a world beater. You know what you get with Trengove and even with his limitations he would be an asset to the team. His strengths are the quite specific strengths our 22 is usually missing.
 

hutchy31

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Trengove isn't that good. I don't think we win cut and dry with him in the team. If he is playing key defense, we aren't a finals team. It's amazing how he has become a 10X better player since he hasn't been getting a game.

This is getting ridiculous now.

Trengove has played over 150 AFL games, including multiple finals, and played key defence and/or done some rucking in those. Port Adelaide were a very good team with him in it, finishing in the finals multiple times including a prelim loss by one goal.

Is he as good as he was? Unlikely. Is he a permanent solution to our KPD and/or ruck positions? Again unlikely. But let’s stop pretending what we’ve seen from Gardner is anything close to what Trengove has produced.

Maybe he’d still be pretty good, or at least be a body physical enough to mitigate the issues we have dealing with big forwards and rucks smashing English all over the ground. But he’s not even getting a chance, unlike Gardner.
 

Hard Ball Get

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This is getting ridiculous now.

Trengove has played over 150 AFL games, including multiple finals, and played key defence and/or done some rucking in those. Port Adelaide were a very good team with him in it, finishing in the finals multiple times including a prelim loss by one goal.

Is he as good as he was? Unlikely. Is he a permanent solution to our KPD and/or ruck positions? Again unlikely. But let’s stop pretending what we’ve seen from Gardner is anything close to what Trengove has produced.

Maybe he’d still be pretty good, or at least be a body physical enough to mitigate the issues we have dealing with big forwards and rucks smashing English all over the ground. But he’s not even getting a chance, unlike Gardner.
He is also incapable of playing a team structure defence... hence not being in the team.
I'm not saying Gardner is great, but I'd absolutely rather him over Tregove. 100%
 

immortalmike

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Trengove isn't that good. I don't think we win cut and dry with him in the team. If he is playing key defense, we aren't a finals team. It's amazing how he has become a 10X better player since he hasn't been getting a game.
You serious bro. We're talking about a player like Gardner as compared to Trengove who is a former Best and Fairest winner. Trengove can at least take a mark above his head. I'm not even a fan but he is a far better player than Gardner.
 

hutchy31

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He is also incapable of playing a team structure defence... hence not being in the team.
I'm not saying Gardner is great, but I'd absolutely rather him over Tregove. 100%

I think that’s a strange statement to make given his experience. Did Port play man-on-man defence until a couple of years ago?

I’m also incredulous that people are prepared to die on a hill with the Gardner selection given his exposed form - with many, many flaws.

But it looks like both camps are destined to disagree. Such is life (or BF).

I hope I’m wrong here, because Bevo seems wedded to players like him and seems to disregard the value of a player who can play defence/ruck or forward/ruck to support English - so it looks like at least part of our future success rests on this working out. We’ll see how that goes I suppose.
 

whyBulldogs

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You serious bro. We're talking about a player like Gardner as compared to Trengove who is a former Best and Fairest winner. Trengove can at least take a mark above his head. I'm not even a fan but he is a far better player than Gardner.

We are talking about out-of-contract player who only played one game for a whole season ( a game where we're destroyed down back). What is the point for club to keep him and what's the point for the player to stay in a club and a coach who doesn't have trust in him. Most likely he's out. Now question, losing one mature ruck backup will force bevo to find a replacement that he'll really (I mean really really) stick on as 2nd ruck? if yes, no more argument about Trengove
 

Hard Ball Get

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I think that’s a strange statement to make given his experience. Did Port play man-on-man defence until a couple of years ago?

I’m also incredulous that people are prepared to die on a hill with the Gardner selection given his exposed form - with many, many flaws.

But it looks like both camps are destined to disagree. Such is life (or BF).

I hope I’m wrong here, because Bevo seems wedded to players like him and seems to disregard the value of a player who can play defence/ruck or forward/ruck to support English - so it looks like at least part of our future success rests on this working out. We’ll see how that goes I suppose.
You serious bro. We're talking about a player like Gardner as compared to Trengove who is a former Best and Fairest winner. Trengove can at least take a mark above his head. I'm not even a fan but he is a far better player than Gardner.

Absolutely serious. I'm pretty positive about most players, but never with Trengove. Frustrated the hell out of me. Great team man, tries his guts out, but a bit part player. Not quite a backman, not a forward and not quite a ruck - similar to the old (but far better) Wade Skipper, too small to ruck, but not proficient anywhere else.

I find the calls about Gardener's positioning made in this thread to be ridiculous considering we are watching him on TV and not live, his kicking is improving with confidence and he was the game leader for metres gained in the first half of the game on the weekend. He is ranked as above average in spoils and statistically is one of our best 1/1 defensive contest players. As a bloke who played as a defender for most of my senior footy, I like what he does to get to a contest and half it.

He has his flaws and might not even be on the list in 2021, but I'd still play him ahead of Trengove. Louis Young is the one I'm not sure about. I'm not sure what's happening there.
 

Glaeken Oracle

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Just harping back to my Hamling posts, the first 30 seconds has 2 aerial contests in a VFL 2013 match between Fletcher Roberts (for Williamstown) and Joel Hamling (for Geelong). Only 3 years later, they were premiership team-mates, and our two KPDs, in the most glorious day in recorded history:



(Another one at about 01:35).
 

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