Saints rebuild vs Carlton rebuild

[majortinkle]

Yes agreed they have the 5 kids you mentioned who will all be players according to my Carlton mates. However it is slim after that, especially as Simpson, Murphy, Gibbs etc start to retire. Docherty is another one who is quality.

I think SOS got some GWS kids in as a short term fix to make Carlton semi competitive whilst they rebuild. I see it similar to when we got Saad and Milera in for a 5 pick downgrade from 20 to 25 which we picked Seb Ross as the cupboard was bare at the Saints. We had to go through pain for the next 3 years except we had fewerless older players like Carlton has.

Carlton essentially has no fwd line and they need to get a tall fwd in the coming draft with their first pick to build around. Not sure who that would be - maybe Battle?

I'd be amazed if they don't pick up James Stewart this offseason. Him McKay and silvagni wouldn't be too bad a trio to try to build around. Maybe they get finlayson as a swingman as well.

Everyone's list looks a lot better if you assume friendly terms from gws of course, but they're more likely to get them unfortunately.

 

[gringo2011]

I think that what really helped us when we started to rebuild is that we were coming off a successful era. Therefore, we had enough players to trade of a high quality that netted us extra picks (eg, Savage and Acres for MacEvoy) yet still had very good older players to keep in the team to help the rebuild with the kids. Basically the players we traded out still had value so we didn't only have to rely on the draft and could rebuild a little more quickly. (Good work from Pelchen who was absolutely pilloried by some when he traded out our "next captain" in Macca.)

I see a world of pain for Carlton and the Tigers in their rebuilds because if they have to trade out some quality, there will be very little left on their lists for balance. Demons, of course, stuffed theirs up completely initially, by getting rid of their older players ( their captain for heaven's sake) and although they are now looking pretty good for the future, it took years and years to get where they are now.

I believe we had, and still have some very smart people building our list these days. Spooners, to 6 1/2 wins, to 10+ (possibly 12/13) and just missing out finals over three years has been an excellent rebuild...although there is still some way to go, if rebuilding ever actually stops.

We actually didn't get much for our trades. Goddard netted us Lee and White who are both gone after this year I reckon. Dal got us Longer and Delaney as steak knives. We probably down graded on that one as Dal would still have high output and Longer has had one okay season but not yet made it and Delaney will be gone next year. Still potential good trade though if Longer becomes a gun. Newnes as a swap for Lynch is probably a break even and Savage and Acres for Hartung and Mc Evoy probably break even ATM too but has potential to go either way.

Our best accumulation of talent is definitely Bruce, Members, Roberton and Mav for pretty much a handful of unusable picks. Next best has been purely from the draft and that was a bonus in a period where access was extremely limited due to GWS and GC getting a bulk of the high ones for a long time.

 

[RoundCubic]

We actually didn't get much for our trades. Goddard netted us Lee and White who are both gone after this year I reckon. Dal got us Longer and Delaney as steak knives. We probably down graded on that one as Dal would still have high output and Longer has had one okay season but not yet made it and Delaney will be gone next year. Still potential good trade though if Longer becomes a gun. Newnes as a swap for Lynch is probably a break even and Savage and Acres for Hartung and Mc Evoy probably break even ATM too but has potential to go either way.

Our best accumulation of talent is definitely Bruce, Members, Roberton and Mav for pretty much a handful of unusable picks. Next best has been purely from the draft and that was a bonus in a period where access was extremely limited due to GWS and GC getting a bulk of the high ones for a long time.

McEvoy + Hartung + Rookie upgrade for Savage + Acres + Dunstan
McEvoy + 24 + 59 for Savage + 18 + 19

 

[crasha301]

We actually didn't get much for our trades. Goddard netted us Lee and White who are both gone after this year I reckon. Dal got us Longer and Delaney as steak knives. We probably down graded on that one as Dal would still have high output and Longer has had one okay season but not yet made it and Delaney will be gone next year. Still potential good trade though if Longer becomes a gun. Newnes as a swap for Lynch is probably a break even and Savage and Acres for Hartung and Mc Evoy probably break even ATM too but has potential to go either way.

Our best accumulation of talent is definitely Bruce, Members, Roberton and Mav for pretty much a handful of unusable picks. Next best has been purely from the draft and that was a bonus in a period where access was extremely limited due to GWS and GC getting a bulk of the high ones for a long time.

5 & 24 for gresh & Carlisle looks like a winner.

 

[gringo2011]

McEvoy + Hartung + Rookie upgrade for Savage + Acres + Dunstan
McEvoy + 24 + 59 for Savage + 18 + 19

Looks a bit better with that extra pick.

 

[gringo2011]

5 & 24 for gresh & Carlisle looks like a winner.

Yeah it does if Carlisle makes an impact. Probably would have used that pick at 5 for Gresh possibly anyway so 24 might have netted a good mid fielder like Ryan Clarke from North Melbourne, maybe even a KP...a few good players were still there in the 20s. Really need Carlisle to make an impact or it was just about par for the course.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

5 & 24 for gresh & Carlisle looks like a winner.

No it was just 5 for Carlisle. Essendon supporters told me that. They used pick 5 to get Parish. And because Carlton , Brisbane, Melbourne and Essendon finished below us, Callum Mills clearly does not exist in this universe.
Not sure we how we got Gresham, i think we just pushed in on draft night and no one noticed us grab a pick we didn't have.

 

[Melksham2Siposs]

Gresham is worth pick 5. After already selected academies plus Hopper + Hipwood + Kennedy, the pick we traded was around the 9 to 10 mark.

In regards to talent access, it was pick 10 + 29 for Gresham and Carlisle.

With Dodo playing checkers, Baines playing chess, we happily took a top 3 midfielder from the draft and an 8 year + elite marking KPD.

 

[Baldur]

We actually didn't get much for our trades. Goddard netted us Lee and White who are both gone after this year I reckon. Dal got us Longer and Delaney as steak knives. We probably down graded on that one as Dal would still have high output and Longer has had one okay season but not yet made it and Delaney will be gone next year. Still potential good trade though if Longer becomes a gun. Newnes as a swap for Lynch is probably a break even and Savage and Acres for Hartung and Mc Evoy probably break even ATM too but has potential to go either way.

Our best accumulation of talent is definitely Bruce, Members, Roberton and Mav for pretty much a handful of unusable picks. Next best has been purely from the draft and that was a bonus in a period where access was extremely limited due to GWS and GC getting a bulk of the high ones for a long time.

Yep

But my opinion for what its worth is that picks are so hit and miss that when rebuilding the trick is to get as many picks as you can. If your recruiting staff are any good some should come good. While you may get picks by trading, linking that trade to that pick and judging win/loss, while common is a form of self torture, with little upside.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yep

But my opinion for what its worth is that picks are so hit and miss that when rebuilding the trick is to get as many picks as you can. If your recruiting staff are any good some should come good. While you may get picks by trading, linking that trade to that pick and judging win/loss, while common is a form of self torture, with little upside.

Which was part of my point from my original post.
Because we came off a successful era we had players with value to trade in order to get extra picks, whilst still keeping other very good senior players to help with the rebuild.
Whereas if Carlton and/or Tigers traded their players of value they wouldn't have as many to keep in their sides for the rebuild.
The idea being to try and create as many extra picks as you can. What you do with them, well...there's never any guarantee they'll all come good.

 

[gringo2011]

Gresham is worth pick 5. After already selected academies plus Hopper + Hipwood + Kennedy, the pick we traded was around the 9 to 10 mark.

In regards to talent access, it was pick 10 + 29 for Gresham and Carlisle.

With Dodo playing checkers, unaware that Baines was playing chess, we happily took a top 3 midfielder from the draft and an 8 year + elite marking KPD.

The bigger the ego, the bigger the peelin',
Who gives a f@# about a juiced up villain?
Spin the media while Baines is f@#ing ya real quick,
And Trout's d#ck, is smellin' like checker boy Dodo's sh!t

I need a shower after reading that but agree with the sentiment. We looked like we'd been ridden but the outcome worked out well. I'm pretty confident we were probably wanting Gresh but thought that pick 5 was a bit high, we probably worked it around to be in our favour. Either that or karma got Essendon.

 

[ronnysnodgrass]

It was quite clear that Patrick Cripps was the best clearance midfielder in the 2013 draft.

The issue was the quality that was in front of his which pushed him down the order. Injuries/etc. have affected some players, but on balance, Cripps was chosen at the right spot. Just that some players were half backs, which does get underrated, and obviously a tall midfielder that can go forward has intrinsically more value. At best, he could have come in at top 5, but still Billings and Bont were rated ahead of him for good reason.

Kevin Sheehan did think the 2013 draft was one of the best drafts ever, particularly the top 30 (post draft completion).

Basically, it would take a lot of effort to get a lemon in that one.

I've pasted the top 30 below - I think most of the top 30 are in the best 22 of their teams, except Scharenberg, Freeman, Leslie, McStay and Gardiner. So, 25 of the 30 players in there are best 22, which is a stunning return.



1 Tom Boyd Greater Western Sydney Eastern Ranges TAC Cup
1 2 Josh Kelly Greater Western Sydney Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Traded from Melbourne
1 3 Jack Billings St Kilda Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup
1 4 Marcus Bontempelli Western Bulldogs Northern Knights TAC Cup
1 5 Kade Kolodjashnij Gold Coast Launceston TSL
1 6 Matthew Scharenberg Collingwood Glenelg SANFL Traded from West Coast
1 7 James Aish Brisbane Lions Norwood SANFL
1 8 Luke McDonald North Melbourne Werribee VFL Father–son selection – son of Donald McDonald
1 9 Christian Salem Melbourne Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Mid first round compensation pick from 2010 traded from Greater Western Sydney
1 10 Nathan Freeman Collingwood Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup
1 11 Dom Sheed West Coast Subiaco WAFL Traded from Collingwood; free agency compensation pick (Thomas)
1 12 Ben Lennon Richmond Northern Knights TAC Cup
1 13 Patrick Cripps Carlton East Fremantle WAFL
1 14 Cameron McCarthy Greater Western Sydney South Fremantle WAFL Traded from Port Adelaide
1 15 Zak Jones Sydney Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup
1 16 Darcy Lang Geelong Geelong Falcons TAC Cup
1 17 Michael Apeness Fremantle Eastern Ranges TAC Cup
1 18 Luke Dunstan St Kilda Woodville-West Torrens SANFL Traded from Hawthorn
1 19 Blake Acres St Kilda West Perth WAFL Traded from Hawthorn; free agency compensation pick (Franklin)
1 20 Jack Leslie Gold Coast Gippsland Power TAC Cup End of first round uncontracted player compensation pick
2 21 Jarman Impey Port Adelaide Murray Bushrangers TAC Cup Traded from Greater Western Sydney
2 22 Darcy Gardiner Brisbane Lions Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Traded by Greater Western Sydney; received from Melbourne
2 23 Matt Crouch Adelaide North Ballarat Rebels TAC Cup Traded from Melbourne; free agency compensation pick (Sylvia)
2 24 Billy Hartung Hawthorn Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Traded from St Kilda
2 25 Daniel McStay Brisbane Lions Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Traded from St Kilda; free agency compensation pick (Dal Santo)
2 26 Zach Merrett Essendon Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Traded from Western Bulldogs
2 27 Sean Lemmens Gold Coast Port Adelaide SANFL
2 28 Lewis Taylor Brisbane Lions Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Traded from West Coast
2 29 Rory Lobb Greater Western Sydney Swan Districts WAFL Traded from Brisbane Lions
2 30 Trent Dumont North Melbourne Norwood SANFL

Man collingngwood really fluffed that draft.

And apness

 

[StCicatriz]

Man collingngwood really fluffed that draft.

And apness

the apeness selection is a classic case of a club not addressing their needs for too long and then shitting themselves and selecting a player far too ahead of where they should be taken in a draft

passing on mcgovern really really hurt them

 

[Half Back Pocket]

whatever happened to this fool:

Bulldogs have Bontempellii, Hunter, Liberatore, Caleb Daniel, Stringer, Macrae, Wallis and it goes on and on.
Melbourne have Gawn, Viney, Petracca, Hogan, Brayshaw, Oliver, Oscar McDonald, Wagner etc etc.
Carlton have Cripps, Docherty, Weitering, Byrne, Plowman, Curnow, Silvagni etc etc.
Collingwood have Darcy Moore, Elliott, Langdon, Treloar, Adams and Mason Cox
St.Kilda have Paddy McCartin always injured, Billings, Lonie and Dunstan and I struggle to think of any of their youngsters that look on a path to being elite or making progress this year.
What the hell is going on with your re-build ? Billings is just dropped. I thought he was your best youngsters and now he is not even playing against us on Sunday. Concerning news in terms of what is going on there in terms of development.

 

[RoundCubic]

I need a shower after reading that but agree with the sentiment. We looked like we'd been ridden but the outcome worked out well. I'm pretty confident we were probably wanting Gresh but thought that pick 5 was a bit high, we probably worked it around to be in our favour. Either that or karma got Essendon.

No one below Gresham between 5 and him we could take but i think we would of wanted to have kept our 2nd

 

[gringo2011]

Man collingngwood really fluffed that draft.

And apness

On paper they had smashed it out of the park straight after the draft. Scharenberg looked like a superstar but is just unbelievably unlucky with his body. Freeman too was just ridiculously injury plagued. They had the Kyle something kid at VFL level who looked like a gun who retired as well. They really had a bad run at it. It was still a very strong draft year even with those guys taken out. Some amazing quality there.

 

[blktreacle]

whatever happened to this fool:

Bulldogs have Bontempellii, Hunter, Liberatore, Caleb Daniel, Stringer, Macrae, Wallis and it goes on and on.
Melbourne have Gawn, Viney, Petracca, Hogan, Brayshaw, Oliver, Oscar McDonald, Wagner etc etc.
Carlton have Cripps, Docherty, Weitering, Byrne, Plowman, Curnow, Silvagni etc etc.
Collingwood have Darcy Moore, Elliott, Langdon, Treloar, Adams and Mason Cox
St.Kilda have Paddy McCartin always injured, Billings, Lonie and Dunstan and I struggle to think of any of their youngsters that look on a path to being elite or making progress this year.
What the hell is going on with your re-build ? Billings is just dropped. I thought he was your best youngsters and now he is not even playing against us on Sunday. Concerning news in terms of what is going on there in terms of development.

Was that purple?

 

[JG22]

Lol

 

[CHBench]

Carlton are truly awful. Bolton's structuring has covered up the 19 potatoes they have out on the ground

 

[JG22]

That mob are a good century away from competing again

 

[Choomah]

They've truly made a meal of their rebuild, I don't expect them to challenge for 50+ years and casboult what a ******* hack he is they have a team full of VFL players

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Carlton are only 1 year in to their rebuild. I hate them more than any other club but to go from dead set last in 2015 to this year is a fair effort. Their list is poor and they have a long way to go but I dont think they've made a meal of it - yet, (there's still hope Choomah )!!!!!!

 

[Roadto2018]

Carlton may improve slightly in the short term as they have a mature list and some youngsters with improvement, but I can't see them rocketing up tbh, unless they trade murphy/gibbs and endure some more years of bottom 4 stuff then they'll be building with 1 or 2 good picks per year, as they 'list turnover' that we always here about that'l continue this year is a turnover of blokes with no value whatsoever, so they won't get any good picks for them. Unless they have some serious success will cheap money ball types, like better than we have, I just can't see them having a strong enough overall list to shoot up any time soon, they'll have guns Cripps Weitering and a few others, but not sure they'll be a strong 22. Should've let kreuzer go last year and obviously daisy was a huge mistake but at the time was supposed to be the icing on the cake.

 

[George]

Epic melts in the Carlton game day thread

 

[JG22]

Casboult and Liam Jones may be the worst forward pairing in history