Senior Coach Rankings

[LittleG]

I look forward to your critical analysis detailing exactly how McCartney under developed those players directly through his actions and what Beveridge did directly through his actions to counter that.

I am not going to go through every player. I will give you one example and not from a young draftee either.
Marcus Picken
Played back pocket or a tagging role under Macca. Was instructed to beat his man and sit on that player. One day, ran forward to make his man Harvey chase him and kicked a goal. Was immediately dragged to the bench for a word and he never left Harvey's side for the rest of the match.
Under Bevo, he plays as an attacking high half-forward role. Flies for some awesome marks and kicked some hugely important goals in the finals series.
Macca was good at teaching players to win their own ball and not be afraid of contact. But his strategy and lack of inspiration made it hard to watch the dogs play.

 

[craffles]

Exactly as mentioned above.

Unless this forum user is a time traveler this is proof Bevo walked into it and didn't create anything.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/there-is-something-about-this-footscray-team.1024626/

But that doesn't fit the narrative that Luke Beveridge is super jesus? You know he runs up hills the players cycle and he surfs and cuts his own hair right?

He just builds "belief"

 

[craffles]

Marcus Picken

Credibility = Zero

 

[hawkman]

Oh but you did. See for yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_AFL_season#Ladder

Mustn't follow the afls too much I see.

No need to play finals then. Team that finishes on top wins the flag. Ross Lyon with 2 flags is equal to Clarkson

 

[eth-dog]

I look forward to your critical analysis detailing exactly how McCartney under developed those players directly through his actions and what Beveridge did directly through his actions to counter that.

Under McCartney:

Johannisen struggled to stay fit and was a promising but unreliable HB who never averaged over the mid teens and struggled defensively.
Picken was an honest toiler who tagged to reasonable effect but could never break the 20 average disposals mark.
Hunter was a midfielder who was struggling in the VFL
Biggs was recruited under Bevo, my mistake
Wood was a Half Back that looked reasonably promising but couldn't stay on the park
Roughead was an okay key defender played out of position
Smith was a midfielder that had an okay career trajectory but nothing outstanding
Dickson was a good player on reflection, again, my mistake
Cordy was also recruited under Bevo; my mistake
Roberts was an okay swingman in the VFL

Under Beveridge:

JJ is one of the best offensive and defensive half backs in the AFL
Picken is a 20+ touch midfielder that can rotate forward and have a big impact
Hunter is a bona fide star midfielder
Wood is the best intercept defender in the game
Roughead is one of the more underrated rucks in the game
Smith is a forward who rotates through the midfield to good effect
Roberts is a very good key defender who shuts down some very good players

We didn't play in a prelim that year. But we did finish top 4 that season. If you look at the 2014 AFL season ladder you can clearly see we finished 3rd that season but fell out early in finals.

How many times must I tell you Scott has placed top 4 four times over his past 6 seasons jeez.

The problem for you is that those facts are mutually exclusive. Geelong weren't in the four last teams in the competition, ergo, not in the top four.

How many times do I have to tell you that this information is incorrect before you realise that it is?

 

[Benny78]

But that doesn't fit the narrative that Luke Beveridge is super jesus? You know he runs up hills the players cycle and he surfs and cuts his own hair right?

He just builds "belief"

"I'd like to get Macca up to the stand" "Come up here mate this is as much yours as it is mine or anyone elses"

 

[Benny78]

Under McCartney:

Johannisen struggled to stay fit and was a promising but unreliable HB who never averaged over the mid teens and struggled defensively.
Picken was an honest toiler who tagged to reasonable effect but could never break the 20 average disposals mark.
Hunter was a midfielder who was struggling in the VFL
Biggs was recruited under Bevo, my mistake
Wood was a Half Back that looked reasonably promising but couldn't stay on the park
Roughead was an okay key defender played out of position
Smith was a midfielder that had an okay career trajectory but nothing outstanding
Dickson was a good player on reflection, again, my mistake
Cordy was also recruited under Bevo; my mistake
Roberts was an okay swingman in the VFL

Under Beveridge:

JJ is one of the best offensive and defensive half backs in the AFL
Picken is a 20+ touch midfielder that can rotate forward and have a big impact
Hunter is a bona fide star midfielder
Wood is the best intercept defender in the game
Roughead is one of the more underrated rucks in the game
Smith is a forward who rotates through the midfield to good effect
Roberts is a very good key defender who shuts down some very good players

The problem for you is that those facts are mutually exclusive. Geelong weren't in the four last teams in the competition, ergo, not in the top four.

How many times do I have to tell you that this information is incorrect before you realise that it is?

Mate under McCartney the below thread was born

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/there-is-something-about-this-footscray-team.1024626/

All that stuff you mentioned is easily attributed to Ryan Griffen leaving. Not Bevo arriving. But the thread I posted clearly makes evident Bevo succeeded in what Lyon could not.

 

[craffles]

Under McCartney:

Johannisen struggled to stay fit and was a promising but unreliable HB who never averaged over the mid teens and struggled defensively.
Picken was an honest toiler who tagged to reasonable effect but could never break the 20 average disposals mark.
Hunter was a midfielder who was struggling in the VFL
Biggs was recruited under Bevo, my mistake
Wood was a Half Back that looked reasonably promising but couldn't stay on the park
Roughead was an okay key defender played out of position
Smith was a midfielder that had an okay career trajectory but nothing outstanding
Dickson was a good player on reflection, again, my mistake
Cordy was also recruited under Bevo; my mistake
Roberts was an okay swingman in the VFL

Under Beveridge:

JJ is one of the best offensive and defensive half backs in the AFL
Picken is a 20+ touch midfielder that can rotate forward and have a big impact
Hunter is a bona fide star midfielder
Wood is the best intercept defender in the game
Roughead is one of the more underrated rucks in the game
Smith is a forward who rotates through the midfield to good effect
Roberts is a very good key defender who shuts down some very good players

The problem for you is that those facts are mutually exclusive. Geelong weren't in the four last teams in the competition, ergo, not in the top four.

How many times do I have to tell you that this information is incorrect before you realise that it is?

At no point in your ramblings did you address in any way how the direct actions of Luke Beveridge contributed to an increase in output. from any of those players, You merely used subjective ratings to support your opinion.

I could easily counter with opinions like

Smith - Injured, finally had a decent run at it
Roughead - Minson dropped off a cliff, more game time in the middle
Hunter- Developed in the VFL came into AFL match hardened.


Literally the only legitimate point you've half raised is the role shift into a more attacking mid/fwd for Picken (which I'll pay)

 

[eth-dog]

Mate under McCartney the below thread was born

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/there-is-something-about-this-footscray-team.1024626/

All that stuff you mentioned is easily attributed to Ryan Griffen leaving. Not Bevo arriving.

In your opinion. It may have been one or both or a combination of those and other, currently unknown factors, but to mark it down to one thing is simplistic.

 

[eth-dog]

At no point in your ramblings did you address in any way how the direct actions of Luke Beveridge contributed to an increase in output. from any of those players, You merely used subjective ratings to support your opinion.

I could easily counter with opinions like

Smith - Injured, finally had a decent run at it
Roughead - Minson dropped off a cliff, more game time in the middle
Hunter- Developed in the VFL came into AFL match hardened.


Literally the only legitimate point you've half raised is the role shift into a more attacking mid/fwd for Picken (which I'll pay)

How about this: Beverage was the one it happened under, not McCartney.

 

[craffles]

How about this: Beverage was the one it happened under, not McCartney.

In your opinion. It may have been one or both or a combination of those and other, currently unknown factors, but to mark it down to one thing is simplistic .

No reply required

 

[Cadillac]

The Macca fans amuse me. Yeah, he did a reasonable job in putting time into the clubs youth. But I've heard from many people who have affiliations with the club that the playing group couldn't stand him as a person or as a coach. And it wasn't just the veterans.

And I also didn't see Macca give Luke Dahlhaus time in the midfield like Bevo did which has resulted in him being one of the most underrated in and under players in the game.

I didn't see Macca turn Hunter into one of the games best accumulators from the wing. He had him rotting in the two's.

JJ had no confidence under Macca because he didn't give him the freedom Bevo has.

Matty Boyd was on the cusp of retirement. Turns him into an All Australian defender.

Turns Joel Hamling into a star two years after he was delisted from Geelong.

Liam Picken. Need I say more?

And there is no hope in hell that Macca would have ever played Clay Smith as a permanent forward like Bevo has done.


And these are just a few examples that have come to me from the top of my head. Bevo is not just a motivator, he's also a developer of talent. And a bloody good coach. The best I've ever seen at the Western Bulldogs.

 

[EagleShore]

Whatever people think of Beveridge v McCartney, it was under Beveridge that the team developed (1) belief in spite of losing their captain (Griffen) and others (sorry, cannot recall who but fairly sure there were others); and (2) a handballing technique when under pressure that beat every other team truly in the running in the 2016 finals (yes, bar Geelong, who were flogged by Sydney in the prelim).

The drink is clearly one of the better coaches in the AFL.

Sorry for a relatively facile analysis, but sometimes it is just that simple.

 

[Bulldog Joe]

And Geelong weren't?

Geelong were if you remember tipped by the same morons to fall way harder than Dogs were in their respective timeframes.

We were too old, too slow, and too good at the time. Our list was tipped as finished as our coach. Bulldogs merely got a new coach with no prospective list concerns. If anything the list was already giftwrapped and as evident in above thread the seeds already sewn.

You continue to live in your own fantasy, it must be pleasant.

It is not possible to have any reasonable debate, so I will not engage you further.

 

[Mofra]

I could easily counter with opinions like

Smith - Injured, finally had a decent run at it
Roughead - Minson dropped off a cliff, more game time in the middle
Hunter- Developed in the VFL came into AFL match hardened.

Polls show that Macrae and Stringer are regularly nominated as two of the best 3 players in the draft. Bevo's dropped both of them.

Positional changes will show how Bevo has developed players much differently, playing them to their strengths rather than focusing on hiding their weaknesses.

Roughy from FB to ruck
Dahl FP to mid
M Boyd from inside mid to HBFer
Crameri further up the ground
Dickson further up the ground
Hunter from HFF to genuine mid
Macrae resting forward
Stringer rotating through the middle
Picken as an attacking mid and resting forward
Wallis & Libba from pure inside mids to resting forward.

Handball club was an initiative under Bevo and in 2016 caught the competition napping. Under B-Mac we were predictable and easy to play against.

 

[Golden_6]

Exactly as mentioned above.

Unless this forum user is a time traveler this is proof Bevo walked into it and didn't create anything.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/there-is-something-about-this-footscray-team.1024626/

The thread you're quoting came directly after a round 20 win against Carlton in a period where it seemed to be that the club was showing some improvement over the back end of 2013. The truth is we were generally winning games on the back of our more experienced players over this period and this showed when the club went backwards in the 2014 season.

The only members of the premiership team that played in this round 20 fixture were Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Wood, Dickson, Picken and Morris.

- Roughead was being played as a fullback under McCartney's tenure which clearly was a terrible idea as he didn't have the mobility or speed to hold down KPD.
- Picken was played as a lockdown defender and Beveridge has turned him into a finals matchwinner.
- Dahlhaus was played as a small FP/HFF, but under Beveridge has been transformed into an elite midfielder.
- Wood has excelled and become an AA and premiership captain under Beveridge after being given the confidence to play to his strengths.
- Dickson has become a consistent finals performer after being in and out of the team in his first few seasons.
- Morris has always been a consistent performer and Libba was elite in 2013.

These are just examples from that specific game where players were underutilized and it's clear as day this trend would continue had Beveridge not become coach. This is not mentioning the other 15 players that Beveridge has had a profound impact on.

The cattle was clearly there as it won us a flag, but it wasn't for the coaching and development of Beveridge then success would've felt an eternity away.

 

[Bulldog1954]

After reading the last few pages the following has become obvious:

- Finals don't matter when gauging a coach. Finishing top four after the regular season is more important then finishing top four after the finals.

- Beveridge inherited a ready made list that had gone 15 and 29 under Macca with the captain and two other senior players walking out. The list was a lot stronger then the list Bomber Thompson left at Geelong, who had been in a premiership drought of over 12 months.

 

[craffles]

After reading the last few pages the following has become obvious:

- Finals don't matter when gauging a coach. Finishing top four after the regular season is more important then finishing top four after the finals.

- Beveridge inherited a ready made list that had gone 15 and 29 under Macca with the captain and two other senior players walking out. The list was a lot stronger then the list Bomber Thompson left at Geelong, who had been in a premiership drought of over 12 months.

Pretty selective synopsis.

* you bulldogs fans have become w***ers post the GF win.

 

[TedDougChris]

Pretty selective synopsis.

**** you bulldogs fans have become ******s post the GF win.

As opposed to Essendon supporters behaviour in the past few years ??

There is clearly been some over reaction by some of our fans following our GF win, which is slightly understandable when you consider that we had been waiting a while. But not by all and every club has them.

We are now seeing the backlash, which is some people trying to play down the significance and merit of our performance and discredit those involved.

I agree, some of us have gone a bit Ken Bruce on here, but it is not everyone and quite a few media types (not necessarily the best reference I will admit) rate our sides and our coaches performance highly...

 

[LittleG]

Pretty selective synopsis.

**** you bulldogs fans have become ******s post the GF win.

Previously we would be called unsuccessful and/or irrelevant.... now things have changed, so it is harder to criticise us now.
Good Luck for this year and we hope all* supporters get experience a flag at some stage. *Except for those supporting robotic or manufactured teams, they can wait!

 

[Super Hans]

The ranks are essentially.

Clarkson (The Ablett version of coach)

Daylight

Scott
Longmire

Both are good but not great. Longmire however is worse.

Then one hit wonders such as

Beveridge

Then

Kinkly
Worsfold

Then all the others, Brad Scott followed by Lyon probably being the best of that tier.

I honestly don't rate Longmire, think Bevo atm is another Lyon (that actually suceeded) and more time is needed to see where he stands. I think Scott is rather poor, just all the others are worse.

Clarko really is the only good coach in the League. And Bevo but I assume I rate him correctly and this season was more a one hit wonder. No chance is he good enough to place top 2 half of his next 6 seasons, and top 4 four out of those next 6 seasons like Scott has after winning his flag. If you said he could I'd tell you you're crazy! Chris Scott would be so good if only he wasn't so bad as well. But still second best coach in league and greater than Bevo as above compelling facts display. Bevo will not achieve a record anywhere near as close as Scott over the next 6 years. Scott had a honeymoon period in 2011 as well how quickly we forget. Won it in his first year (also a rarer achievement in afl history).

How is Beveridge a one hit wonder and Scott isn't? Scott took over a team that had one two flags and has taken them backward. Beveridge took the wooden spoon favourites and made them premiers in 24 months.

 

[Bokonon_]

After reading the last few pages the following has become obvious:

- Finals don't matter when gauging a coach. Finishing top four after the regular season is more important then finishing top four after the finals.

- Beveridge inherited a ready made list that had gone 15 and 29 under Macca with the captain and two other senior players walking out. The list was a lot stronger then the list Bomber Thompson left at Geelong, who had been in a premiership drought of over 12 months.

I dont dispute his performamce and his influence on the game last year. The juries still out but he may have changed the game forever in my view.
A coach is ranked on long term performance though. If the OP asked for coach of the year, he gets my vote.
If the Bulldogs contend for the next few years, we can start to make comparisions with Clarkson.

 

[Super Hans]

McCartney was a gun. His gameplan of Minson hitting it to Libba/Griffen then bomb it forward was a joy to watch. That was the real reason for the flag, nothing to do with Beveridge changing everything in our gamestyle.

 

[Golden_6]

Pretty selective synopsis.

**** you bulldogs fans have become ******s post the GF win.

It's a discussion topic. Many posters have offered reasonable explanations on why McCartney was ultimately failing as a coach, both through the underutilisation of individual players and poor team structures and strategies. Beveridge has completely turned all of this around.

Feel free to disagree and offer a differing opinion with substantiation other than attacking an entire fan base.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Who let Benny out of the asylum?