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Should Salary Cheats Have Bigger Fines?
- Thread starter Stengas
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The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
- Moderator
- #2
and your Father should get a vasectomy so he doesn't do it again.
Spunjy
Rookie
I don't think that Melbourne will be doing it in the near future. The actual breaching nearly crippled us financially and caused us to consider a merger.
As for the fines, next time Diamond Joe won't be bailing us out. (He probrably will, but we don't want to take that sort of punt)
The draft restrictions haven't had a huge impact I think, because of some very astute recruitment last year (Green, Wheatley, Whelan, Bruce and Powell) without a first round pick.
As for the fines, next time Diamond Joe won't be bailing us out. (He probrably will, but we don't want to take that sort of punt)
The draft restrictions haven't had a huge impact I think, because of some very astute recruitment last year (Green, Wheatley, Whelan, Bruce and Powell) without a first round pick.
Max Power
Senior List
Topic should be 'Should the AFL be consistent in their salary cap fines?'
Melbourne blew up over the cap more than Essendon did but got a lesser penalty. And thier cap rorting in the end picked up White how is a key to their team now.
Carlton not once, twice but three times cheated but still they get a slap on the wrist.
Us Essendon fans have more reason than usual to be bitter and twisted when this topic comes up
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Melbourne blew up over the cap more than Essendon did but got a lesser penalty. And thier cap rorting in the end picked up White how is a key to their team now.
Carlton not once, twice but three times cheated but still they get a slap on the wrist.
Us Essendon fans have more reason than usual to be bitter and twisted when this topic comes up
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It really makes me laugh when Essendon whinge about Carlton breaching the salary cap three times. Weren't Essendon doing it for six years?
McKenna for PM
Senior List
I shouldn't reply to salary cap breaches by Carlton, since I lack the impartiality to present a factual argument!
But a breaching fine for financially struggling clubs like North Melbourne or Melbourne, etc. is very different to one for a rich club like West Coast, or Carlton for example. There should be other methods of punishment, maybe reducing that club's cap for the next year or something like that. A way that hurts all clubs equally should be in order.
But I also think that different breaches warrant different degrees of punishment. Sometimes it may be purely accidental, such as a small underestimate of a players' performance-based salary for the year in question.
Bugger it, I will make comments on Carlton:
In contrast, such repeated, flagrant disregard for the laws of the game should recieve a swift and hefty punishment. That is not an oversight, it is blatantly cheating. If Carlton wasn't the apple in the VFL's eye I assure you they would be reeling by now. Perhaps docking them a player or two for the coming season......!!!!
But a breaching fine for financially struggling clubs like North Melbourne or Melbourne, etc. is very different to one for a rich club like West Coast, or Carlton for example. There should be other methods of punishment, maybe reducing that club's cap for the next year or something like that. A way that hurts all clubs equally should be in order.
But I also think that different breaches warrant different degrees of punishment. Sometimes it may be purely accidental, such as a small underestimate of a players' performance-based salary for the year in question.
Bugger it, I will make comments on Carlton:
In contrast, such repeated, flagrant disregard for the laws of the game should recieve a swift and hefty punishment. That is not an oversight, it is blatantly cheating. If Carlton wasn't the apple in the VFL's eye I assure you they would be reeling by now. Perhaps docking them a player or two for the coming season......!!!!
I don't know about the punishments, but I do think the AFL should create an independent investigating committee to look into how many teams that are over the salary cap limit. I reckon there's a very strong possibly that every team in the league is either over the limit, or bending the rules in the way Carlton did.
Mckenna,
I was having a miserable day until I read your post. I nearly fell off my chair laughing! I better get serious though, I've got a lunch time meeting soon, and can't giggle through that!
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The Blues. The Best in the business.
[This message has been edited by Bee (edited 21 November 2000).]
I was having a miserable day until I read your post. I nearly fell off my chair laughing! I better get serious though, I've got a lunch time meeting soon, and can't giggle through that!
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The Blues. The Best in the business.
[This message has been edited by Bee (edited 21 November 2000).]
- Nov 17, 2000
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Players are robbed by the salary cap!
I know why the salary cap is in place, but it is a clear restraint of trade. Why shouldn't our footy stars be paid as much as soccer, baseball, golf, tennis....players?
The cap restricts their wages and that is unfair. I'm amazed that the unions haven't picked it up!
And that goes for the draft too. Why should players be auctioned like slaves, forced to go wherever they are told. Why can't they just apply for a job with employers of their choice just like everyone else.(from the players perspective, not the leagues balancing act).
So, in answer to the question, no fines and let all clubs cheat as much as they want (they probably do anyhow only most haven't been caught)
I know why the salary cap is in place, but it is a clear restraint of trade. Why shouldn't our footy stars be paid as much as soccer, baseball, golf, tennis....players?
The cap restricts their wages and that is unfair. I'm amazed that the unions haven't picked it up!
And that goes for the draft too. Why should players be auctioned like slaves, forced to go wherever they are told. Why can't they just apply for a job with employers of their choice just like everyone else.(from the players perspective, not the leagues balancing act).
So, in answer to the question, no fines and let all clubs cheat as much as they want (they probably do anyhow only most haven't been caught)
Spunjy
Didn't the salary fines come after the merger ?
And don't shed too many tears for Joseph Gutnick. He's done wonders for the demons but he's had the $3M or so he donated back ten times over in the form of free publicity
(He was unknown before the melbourne issue)
Didn't the salary fines come after the merger ?
And don't shed too many tears for Joseph Gutnick. He's done wonders for the demons but he's had the $3M or so he donated back ten times over in the form of free publicity
(He was unknown before the melbourne issue)
Maybe there is yet another salary cap breach from Carlton?
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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.
[This message has been edited by CJH (edited 21 November 2000).]
Spunjy
Rookie
Pess,
Yes, the FINES came after the merger proposal, but the actual rorting of the salary cap caused the club to lose money. By paying the players too much, we were financially shooting ourselves in the foot, which made us unstable, causing us to contemplate the merger proposal. The RORTING was before the merger proposal. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Nothing against the Hawthorn FC, but damn I'm happy that I don't follow the Dawks!!
Yes, the FINES came after the merger proposal, but the actual rorting of the salary cap caused the club to lose money. By paying the players too much, we were financially shooting ourselves in the foot, which made us unstable, causing us to contemplate the merger proposal. The RORTING was before the merger proposal. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Nothing against the Hawthorn FC, but damn I'm happy that I don't follow the Dawks!!
Pess,
Joe Gutnick was a well known businessman before he took over the presidency of the Melbourne Football Club. Also, free publicity does not do a lot to help mining companies find diamonds!
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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.
Joe Gutnick was a well known businessman before he took over the presidency of the Melbourne Football Club. Also, free publicity does not do a lot to help mining companies find diamonds!
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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.
frodo, the cap is for the good of the league, and more importantly for the good of the clubs that cant pay infinite amounts of $$$ to buy up all the best players (like Carlton did to win most of their flags before the salary cap).
Also, golf and tennis are individual sports, where the winners get paid $$$ and the losers get paid nothing (basically speaking), while in soccer and baseball, they cant really impose a cap because all the best players would just go play in another league or country that paid them more $$$, which is totally diferent to AFL.
glad we got that straight.
Also, golf and tennis are individual sports, where the winners get paid $$$ and the losers get paid nothing (basically speaking), while in soccer and baseball, they cant really impose a cap because all the best players would just go play in another league or country that paid them more $$$, which is totally diferent to AFL.
glad we got that straight.
- Nov 17, 2000
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Yea, I know why it is there but I think it is unfair on the players.
I can't see your arguments having a lot of logic re other sports. Golf and tennis all have prize money goung down to 6th or lower.
I also think that clubs that can't market themselves well enough to make money should go to the wall, just like any other business, and make way for a new club that can.
I can't see your arguments having a lot of logic re other sports. Golf and tennis all have prize money goung down to 6th or lower.
I also think that clubs that can't market themselves well enough to make money should go to the wall, just like any other business, and make way for a new club that can.
McKenna for PM
Senior List
Frodo,
What are you talking about? Taking away the rule that permits all teams to compete on as close to even grounds as is practical?
Would you rather see dominant teams winning year in year out? Now THAT is shooting ourselves in the foot.
Players can and should be drafted wherever they are wanted. They are paid professionals. If they're not happy about that, they can either bail out or play well enough to be traded back to their homes.
I can't for the life of me figure out the possible advantages to AFL your idea would have. Allowing free trade between states permits as even a competition as we can get. I think you are simply advocating the abolishment of the salary cap because West Coast is a team who stands to gain the most from it. They not only have the most money to provide their players, but they also have the greatest per team source of draftees in the competition, since WA only has two teams.
Whilst I too am a die hard West Coast fan, I would hate to see AFL's greatest idea ruined by short-sighted interests. I would far prefer to see us dominate on a level playing field.
What are you talking about? Taking away the rule that permits all teams to compete on as close to even grounds as is practical?
Would you rather see dominant teams winning year in year out? Now THAT is shooting ourselves in the foot.
Players can and should be drafted wherever they are wanted. They are paid professionals. If they're not happy about that, they can either bail out or play well enough to be traded back to their homes.
I can't for the life of me figure out the possible advantages to AFL your idea would have. Allowing free trade between states permits as even a competition as we can get. I think you are simply advocating the abolishment of the salary cap because West Coast is a team who stands to gain the most from it. They not only have the most money to provide their players, but they also have the greatest per team source of draftees in the competition, since WA only has two teams.
Whilst I too am a die hard West Coast fan, I would hate to see AFL's greatest idea ruined by short-sighted interests. I would far prefer to see us dominate on a level playing field.
McKenna for PM
Senior List
Sorry, I posted that last one before reading the latest two.
Why should teams without money go down just like corporations? The growing corporatisation of sporting teams disgusts me. Sure, it's important to run in the black, but they are there to play the best football they can, not make the most money.
My hatred for them aside, I have nothing but respect for what North Melbourne has done. They are one of the poorest clubs in the competition, yet they have been consistently dominant throughout the entire 1990s. That alone is proof that the salary cap is well worthwhile. To stick it to the rich teams like us must have been really satisfying.
I truly hope that there aren't many people who agree with your sentiments Frodo, because then the AFL will have lost what sets it apart from the rest. And I will have lost my favourite sport in the world. (sniff)
Why should teams without money go down just like corporations? The growing corporatisation of sporting teams disgusts me. Sure, it's important to run in the black, but they are there to play the best football they can, not make the most money.
My hatred for them aside, I have nothing but respect for what North Melbourne has done. They are one of the poorest clubs in the competition, yet they have been consistently dominant throughout the entire 1990s. That alone is proof that the salary cap is well worthwhile. To stick it to the rich teams like us must have been really satisfying.
I truly hope that there aren't many people who agree with your sentiments Frodo, because then the AFL will have lost what sets it apart from the rest. And I will have lost my favourite sport in the world. (sniff)
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From the AFL perspective, yes you're correct. But from a players perspective they are getting underpaid.
The other thing is that it is better that the weak seeds wither and are replaced by strong ones who can get to the top.
The other thing is that it is better that the weak seeds wither and are replaced by strong ones who can get to the top.
James2
Senior List
Frodo you are wrong!!
AFL players are played considerably more then most other sportsmen in Australia. Comparing AFL wages to those of international competitions, is misleading. The AFL cannot afford to pay players that amount of money. The market just isn't there. The AFLPA know this. They also know that spiralling wage bills will send clubs broke, leaving many of their members without a job.
The salary cap is not a restraint of trade. Whether it restricts wages, as you say it does, is irrelevant. Restricting wages is not restraint of trade. The draft is a restraint of trade, however restraints of trade can be justified as reasonable if it affords adequate protection to the draftee while at the same time does not harm the public. The draft does not harm the AFL, or football in general, its existence is necessary.
[This message has been edited by James2 (edited 21 November 2000).]
AFL players are played considerably more then most other sportsmen in Australia. Comparing AFL wages to those of international competitions, is misleading. The AFL cannot afford to pay players that amount of money. The market just isn't there. The AFLPA know this. They also know that spiralling wage bills will send clubs broke, leaving many of their members without a job.
The salary cap is not a restraint of trade. Whether it restricts wages, as you say it does, is irrelevant. Restricting wages is not restraint of trade. The draft is a restraint of trade, however restraints of trade can be justified as reasonable if it affords adequate protection to the draftee while at the same time does not harm the public. The draft does not harm the AFL, or football in general, its existence is necessary.
[This message has been edited by James2 (edited 21 November 2000).]
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
- Moderator
- #22
Players still go to the highest bidder, only initially it appears as complex draft pick deals. I can understand the fuss if a team go over their salary cap to get a star player from another team. I do have a problem however with teams losing players that they have developed because they had played well the previous year and as such their worth has gone up. Another team benefits from the hard work put in with that player.
Carlton tries to correct the problem with their cap and as such Fraser Brown has retired. Do you people think that Brown should not be given a cent? That would fix the current allegations for the Blues. No, they do the right thing by a player who has done his club proud. How the hell can Carlton gain anything by payinmg out a player's contract after he retires. The other alternative would be to make him stay and play. I think people forget the human element of football sometimes. What may have happened if Carlton could not pay Bradley the money he did. Either Bradley stays and suffers or he chooses to leave. Which other AFL clubs deserves to retain Bradley as much as Carlton? Which star recruit should they have cut to give Bradley money he had earned?
I for one would hate to see any club lose their stars that they had developed merely cause their asking price had been lifted. Do we want free agents like in the American NFL? Do you respect the players that hold out for the biggest money and change teams every year? I want to keep football looking like football as much as possible instead of a business. If Carlton breached the cap to get Greg Williams, then that would be wrong but breaching the cap to give a bonus payment to a club stalwart???
This amounts to communism. Everyone has to be equal regardless how much extra work they have put in. Team A can do some fabulous scouting and development work with a player and when that player has become so good that they rightfully deserve a pay rise, Team A has to cut another player they had developed or watch as Team B reaps the rewards of their work by doing nothing.
If recruiting a player initially puts you over the cap then that would be wrong. If the asking price of a player you developed put you over the cap then that is not so morally reprehensible.
In essence salary cap rorting is unacceptable but mitigating circumstances should be taken into account. Put yourself into the same position and see how high and mighty you might be then. You are dealing with player's lives here. Players that give people great joy by their deeds on the field.
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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body
Carlton tries to correct the problem with their cap and as such Fraser Brown has retired. Do you people think that Brown should not be given a cent? That would fix the current allegations for the Blues. No, they do the right thing by a player who has done his club proud. How the hell can Carlton gain anything by payinmg out a player's contract after he retires. The other alternative would be to make him stay and play. I think people forget the human element of football sometimes. What may have happened if Carlton could not pay Bradley the money he did. Either Bradley stays and suffers or he chooses to leave. Which other AFL clubs deserves to retain Bradley as much as Carlton? Which star recruit should they have cut to give Bradley money he had earned?
I for one would hate to see any club lose their stars that they had developed merely cause their asking price had been lifted. Do we want free agents like in the American NFL? Do you respect the players that hold out for the biggest money and change teams every year? I want to keep football looking like football as much as possible instead of a business. If Carlton breached the cap to get Greg Williams, then that would be wrong but breaching the cap to give a bonus payment to a club stalwart???
This amounts to communism. Everyone has to be equal regardless how much extra work they have put in. Team A can do some fabulous scouting and development work with a player and when that player has become so good that they rightfully deserve a pay rise, Team A has to cut another player they had developed or watch as Team B reaps the rewards of their work by doing nothing.
If recruiting a player initially puts you over the cap then that would be wrong. If the asking price of a player you developed put you over the cap then that is not so morally reprehensible.
In essence salary cap rorting is unacceptable but mitigating circumstances should be taken into account. Put yourself into the same position and see how high and mighty you might be then. You are dealing with player's lives here. Players that give people great joy by their deeds on the field.
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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body
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james,
you said :-
AFL players are paid considerably more then most other sportsmen in Australia. Comparing AFL wages to those of international competitions, is misleading.
In that case Footy is doomed to never become an international sport otherwise the AFL would die. Overseas leagues would never wear a salary cap (it would be illegal in Europe)
and they would take every good player from Australia due to our restrictive practices.
In Europe(UK) soccer players play in front of crowds as low as 10,000 in their first division with no TV revenue and players are paid much more than in Australia.
This cutting is about a Chelsea reserve player
A fee of £12m has been agreed in principle for Flo but the player is understood to have demanded almost double his present salary of £1m-a-year to move to Ibrox.
1M = $2.8M now and wanting $5.6M
What's the average clubs income in the AFL
11 home games @$50 x 35000 =$19.25M
plus catering profit, marketing and TV rights.
Plus the finals receipts.
What's the salary cap? Around $3.5M? Someone is making a fortune out of the salary cap I would say, and it's not the players.
you said :-
AFL players are paid considerably more then most other sportsmen in Australia. Comparing AFL wages to those of international competitions, is misleading.
In that case Footy is doomed to never become an international sport otherwise the AFL would die. Overseas leagues would never wear a salary cap (it would be illegal in Europe)
and they would take every good player from Australia due to our restrictive practices.
In Europe(UK) soccer players play in front of crowds as low as 10,000 in their first division with no TV revenue and players are paid much more than in Australia.
This cutting is about a Chelsea reserve player
A fee of £12m has been agreed in principle for Flo but the player is understood to have demanded almost double his present salary of £1m-a-year to move to Ibrox.
1M = $2.8M now and wanting $5.6M
What's the average clubs income in the AFL
11 home games @$50 x 35000 =$19.25M
plus catering profit, marketing and TV rights.
Plus the finals receipts.
What's the salary cap? Around $3.5M? Someone is making a fortune out of the salary cap I would say, and it's not the players.
Old Dark:
Isn't this just pure capitalism? The product goes to the highest bidder? In many ways, it is better, because the restrictions on player movements mean that a club has a much greater chance of retaining their players, unlike, say, corporate headhunting. Under any other system, the good work done by smaller clubs in recruiting and developing players would be ruined when the player is offered a better deal by one of the bigger clubs.
Frodo, in the English first division, crowds as low as 10,000 are rare; there is indeed television money, though not the same amount; ticket prices are higher; 19 home games are played and the clubs own their own ground.
The money going through the Premier league, particularly a club like Chelsea, and particularly for a player like Flo, who, although he plays off the bench, is a very high profile player, would always greatly exceed the money in the AFL.
In any case, footy always has been, and always will be, doomed as a true international sport. It's only strength is the entertainment value of the AFL.
[This message has been edited by Tom FC (edited 22 November 2000).]
Isn't this just pure capitalism? The product goes to the highest bidder? In many ways, it is better, because the restrictions on player movements mean that a club has a much greater chance of retaining their players, unlike, say, corporate headhunting. Under any other system, the good work done by smaller clubs in recruiting and developing players would be ruined when the player is offered a better deal by one of the bigger clubs.
Frodo, in the English first division, crowds as low as 10,000 are rare; there is indeed television money, though not the same amount; ticket prices are higher; 19 home games are played and the clubs own their own ground.
The money going through the Premier league, particularly a club like Chelsea, and particularly for a player like Flo, who, although he plays off the bench, is a very high profile player, would always greatly exceed the money in the AFL.
In any case, footy always has been, and always will be, doomed as a true international sport. It's only strength is the entertainment value of the AFL.
[This message has been edited by Tom FC (edited 22 November 2000).]
