So... Hale or Bailey?

[Dixie Flatline]

The good Doc J summed it up perfectly for mine - you cannot risk leaving aside a genuine A Grade thoroughbred ruckman for a 'bitsa' and possibly losing control of the guts in the process for a mythical couple of goals, and I say that with no disrespect to David Hale.

If we have control of the centre square, the goals will rain down irregardless.

What would be your take if Fremantle played Zac Clarke instead of Sandilands? (and Sandy is a pretty average ruckman at the best of times in reality)

As good as Hale has been - and I believe you can fit both in the team - Bails is the Number 1, and you work out how to fit Hale into the structure after that.

No inside knowledge on my part, but I would think Clarkson disagrees with this. Hawthorn tried two ruckmen + Roughead earlier in the season with McCauley was playing with Hale and Hawthorn looked top-heavy and slow around the ground. When Hawthorn switched to Hale + Roughead combination and brought in an extra midfielder, Hawthorn by and large looked much more dangerous on the spread, which hasn't always been the case (Mitchell and Sewell, god bless'em, are terrific inside midfielders but aren't blessed with pace).

 

[christoff91]

Bit rough on Max that, Bailey is a much better then Blake was imo, I still think there is a spot for Max in the side, there are going to be times when we need a bona fide ruckman in the middle, Hale isnt that, and if you take Hale out of the side we still have the means to kick a winning score, in other words, if Hale wasnt kicking his 3 or 4 every week he wouldnt be in the side

The problem with Hale is that he isnt scoring much this season. He scored 4 against Port, probably the worst team in the AFL. After that he has kicked 2 goals 3 times and 1 goal 8 times. He hasn't scored in a game 6 times. If Bailey could kick 1-2 goals a game he would easily surpass Hale.

 

[Jiggystoon]

The problem with Hale is that he isnt scoring much this season. He scored 4 against Port, probably the worst team in the AFL. After that he has kicked 2 goals 3 times and 1 goal 8 times. He hasn't scored in a game 6 times. If Bailey could kick 1-2 goals a game he would easily surpass Hale.

Even if Bailey doesnt kick goals our forward line still has enough firepower to not have to rely on goals coming from the resting ruckman, I think we will find that Bailey will go past Hale at some stage, its just hard to leave Hale out because he is playing pretty well

 

[Nomore4s]

It wouldn't surprise me if we play both at times during the finals. I actually think it allows for more flexibility.
Bailey - first ruck
Hale - 2nd ruck/forward
Roughead - key forward/swing man - What he was recruited for.

As well as Roughead plays in the ruck, he isn't really a ruckman and the only reason he plays that role well is his ability around the ground. With Bailey and Hale as our ruck combo there is no reason we can't play Roughead as an on-baller if needed for burst periods or even as a loose man in the backline, or even chuck him in the ruck for periods, getting the best of both worlds.

I also don't think it makes us too top heavy considering Roughead and Buddy are so good at ground level and have great ability to tackle and chase(especially Buddy who i think from memory has a great inside 50 tackle count). But it may depend on who we are playing. Teams like Geelong and West Coast who are top heavy, I think all 3 is a great option. Even against Sydney with Mumford and Pyke playing all 3 might be a good option. IMO if both hale and Bailey play well they will keep their spot in the team.

 

[TAITA]

No inside knowledge on my part, but I would think Clarkson disagrees with this. Hawthorn tried two ruckmen + Roughead earlier in the season with McCauley was playing with Hale and Hawthorn looked top-heavy and slow around the ground. When Hawthorn switched to Hale + Roughead combination and brought in an extra midfielder, Hawthorn by and large looked much more dangerous on the spread, which hasn't always been the case (Mitchell and Sewell, god bless'em, are terrific inside midfielders but aren't blessed with pace).

Probably so mate - if I have one real criticism of Clarko from my point of view it is that he understands the value of ruckmen, but he doesn't necessarily utilise them as well as he could.

I am the lone ranger in this thinking, but I would play Hale as the sub, safe in the knowledge that you won't lose more games than playing Savage or Suckling as a sub might win you.

 

[christoff91]

Probably so mate - if I have one real criticism of Clarko from my point of view it is that he understands the value of ruckmen, but he doesn't necessarily utilise them as well as he could.

I am the lone ranger in this thinking, but I would play Hale as the sub, safe in the knowledge that you won't lose more games than playing Savage or Suckling as a sub might win you.

But how would Hale have an impact as the sub? Players like Savage or Suckling provide energy and pace when they are subbed in. Hale isnt really renowned for ether of those...

 

[christoff91]

Just in, Bailey is out.

 

[TAITA]

But how would Hale have an impact as the sub? Players like Savage or Suckling provide energy and pace when they are subbed in. Hale isnt really renowned for ether of those...

Hawthorn have not won a game off the impact of a sub, infact you'd be lucky to find a handful of sides that have. The extra, explosive runner has only had so much appeal.

However, consider for a second that we lose a KPP to injury early in the match - if you really think about it our options are limited - however Hale as the sub not only gives us options back and forward should that eventuate, but also a fresh ruck in the second half - for me it's a no brainer, providing both of those blokes can attain the level of fitness required to fill those roles.

 

[Henry Jr]

Well, if Bailey is out, then its not looking good for him. Thought that might have rested Rough to have another look at Bailey.

 

[Jaeger]

Well, if Bailey is out, then its not looking good for him. Thought that might have rested Rough to have another look at Bailey.

They still might.

 

[Jaeger]

Hawthorn have not won a game off the impact of a sub, infact you'd be lucky to find a handful of sides that have. The extra, explosive runner has only had so much appeal.

However, consider for a second that we lose a KPP to injury early in the match - if you really think about it our options are limited - however Hale as the sub not only gives us options back and forward should that eventuate, but also a fresh ruck in the second half - for me it's a no brainer, providing both of those blokes can attain the level of fitness required to fill those roles.

Rucks tend to tire out and provide less run as the game goes on.

If we had Hale as a sub (Bailey rucked with Rough), and a mid or running defender went down, we would be in all sorts.

 

[TAITA]

Rucks tend to tire out and provide less run as the game goes on.

If we had Hale as a sub (Bailey rucked with Rough), and a mid or running defender went down, we would be in all sorts.

If we had one of 14 go down we would be more disadvantaged than if we had one of 7 go down - seriously?

Have a think about it Shepp.

Dinosaurs (of the tall variety) are not yet extinct.

 

[The Post Man]

The problem with Hale is that he isnt scoring much this season. He scored 4 against Port, probably the worst team in the AFL. After that he has kicked 2 goals 3 times and 1 goal 8 times. He hasn't scored in a game 6 times. If Bailey could kick 1-2 goals a game he would easily surpass Hale.

Could this have something to do with Hale spending more time in the ruck than he previously has? He is now the number 1 ruck who rests forward.

 

[christoff91]

Could this have something to do with Hale spending more time in the ruck than he previously has? He is now the number 1 ruck who rests forward.

very true! but if we want a number 1 ruck who dosnt play forward as much then it might be better to use Bailey as he is better in the ruck.

 

[Hawkers]

As well as Roughead plays in the ruck, he isn't really a ruckman and the only reason he plays that role well is his ability around the ground. With Bailey and Hale as our ruck combo there is no reason we can't play Roughead as an on-baller if needed for burst periods or even as a loose man in the backline, or even chuck him in the ruck for periods, getting the best of both worlds.

Hmm - Roughy the quintessential Ruck Rover

 

[Henry Jr]

Rucks tend to tire out and provide less run as the game goes on.

If we had Hale as a sub (Bailey rucked with Rough), and a mid or running defender went down, we would be in all sorts.

No worse off than playing two rucks from the get go given that you would have two big blokes in your 21. Even if you bring on a medium defender as a sub to replace the injured player, your still stuck with two rucks.

I do think the ruck as a sub has merit however, its very late in the game now to see if the theory works.

 

[Hawks1994]

Big Max gives his all, but Hale stays for mine. Just because he has combined well with Rough this year and this should continue

 

[Lord Mud of Glenferrie]

Hale and Roughead or Bailey and Hale or Bailey and Roughead?
A bit of conundrum because playing both Bailey and Hale reduces our running capacity. It is as simple as that, or at least that is the typical assumption because the second Ruck takes the place of a runner. Okay, I ask why should a Ruckman take the place of a runner?
I have not got time to list all of the “Runners / On Ballers” in our current team. Instead I will list our Armada of Half Back Flankers
1. Suckling
2. Gibson
3. Birchall
4. Guerra
5. Gilham
6. Stratton
Almost certainly Hodge will be a starter down back and Burgoyne will spend most game time down back. If Ellis remains in the team he will also spend time down back.
Shoey is the only true Key Position Back in the team, so he is a must selection. Birchall is the attacking defender – he remains. Guerra is probably our best defender and also a superb kick – he remains. Hodge of course stays and he is also a good kick. I doubt any one would suggest that Burgoyne be dropped.
That is one KPD and four halfbacks. Surely only one more is required.
Good Ruckmen are not Dinosaurs and playing two in the same team is not a thing of the past PROVIDING BOTH ARE GOOD ENOUGH. A good Ruckman needs to be able to dominate hit outs, take marks around the ground, relieving marks in defence and sneak forward to take a contested mark and kick the odd goal. Neither Hale nor Bailey meets all of the above criteria. This is an absolute shame because Hawthorn is crying out for at least one to fill this role.
I am disappointed that Bailey is not selected to play on Sunday. It takes a Ruck around four or five consecutive games to attain any sort of form. Maybe if Bailey had those games under his belt and displayed some form the question would not be about playing both Hale and Bailey and which “runner” to drop, instead it should be about which Half Back to drop - Gilham, Gibson, Stratton or Suckling.
Gibson, Stratton or Suckling too good to drop? Bully for us, I suppose that is what happens when we had a list manager mesmerized by undersized KPDs.

 

[HawkNation]

It is a difficult one. I think ideally Bailey being fit all year would have allowed us time to see if all three worked (the plan at the start of the year). However it is too late to go away from the two ruckman winning forumula. Roughead is the gun forward/ruckman(2) in the AFL.

I think Hale has to remain. He has the runs on the board. His only issue is his big game play. I am of the opinion Max is slightly overated aswell.

Initially I had Hale as the forward/ruckman taking Gunstons forward position, but I think Jack is in our best 22 now.

Guerra Gibson Stratton
Birchall Schoenmakers Burgoyne

Hale Sewell Lewis
Smith Mitchell Young

Rioli Franklin Hodge
Breust Roughead Puopolo

Int: Suckling, Shiels, Whitecross, Gusnton

Thats the team I'd run with in the finals. Bailey, Savage, Ellis the three emergencies.

 

[realhawk]

The selectors have had their say and Max is out, they are going to go with Hale and rough, we just cant have max in the side at the expense of a running midfielder or an extra defender, the 1 or 2 kicks and the rare mark that he takes is just not enough to warrant his selection, supporters have to remember he has had 3 knee recos and his output around the ground is always going to be limited, its been a great effort by him to get back playing footy but he just cant do enough unfortunately to make our best team.

 

[RIOLINWITPUNCHS]

I have the perfect solution! Play 'Hailey'! That way they both get a run!

 

[Gralin]

At this stage Bailey looks like depth for finals, Hale offers us so much more around the ground and up forward atm.

If Bailey can improve his running and most importantly his marking then he can give Hale a run for his money but that is more likely to be for next year

 

[christoff91]

A very strong game from Hale, seemed to attack the ball more. He needs to do this against tough opposition too.
Stats:

K:11​

H:12​

D:23​

M:7​

HO:30​

T:6​

FF:4​

FA:2​

G:1​

B:0​

​

​

 

[TAITA]

A very strong game from Hale, seemed to attack the ball more. He needs to do this against tough opposition too.
Stats:

K:11​

H:12​

D:23​

M:7​

HO:30​

T:6​

FF:4​

FA:2​

G:1​

B:0​

His work around the ground was fantastic but his 30 taps just seemed ineffectual to me - more just bringing the ball to ground rather than palming to advantage, and against pretty average (being kind) opposition he should have really cleaned up. Certainly, and without the stats to confirm my views, when Roughy was in the middle the centre square group had more direction, more purpose imo.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

The ruckman ran wide of each other all day. Explains why both Rough and Hale won a fair bit of the ball around the ground.