Roast St Kilda in no mans land - Part 2

[timokane]

always was saints never ending as well nothing new as they say they a pretty good for 1 flag

 

[bergholt]

$1.7m goes a long way though.

Essendon are paying Ben McKay $1m a year or whatever it is to fill an actual area of need and they have gotten worse.

There is only a 4 year age difference between Marshall and TDK and Marshall is playing good footy.

Granted Sunday's game was a rare case where St Kilda's second "ruck" was Mitch Owens but I don't think fielding Marshall and TDK wins you that game. And that's against the team with arguably the worst first ruck, the worst second ruck and the worst midfield in the league currently.

If it was me looking to spend St Kilda's salary cap I would be targeting 22-26 year old mids and someone like Josh Battle.

A lot of chat about Zak Butters, Matt Rowell, Harley Reid etc. being linked to the usual suspects. Those are the sort of players you throw $1m at. If they aren't gettable then better off going to the draft and bringing in Jack Macraes ec.

Yeah everyone knows we need mids, we've thrown money at plenty and none have bitten.

If we don't pay TDK then it's not like we can pay a gun free agent mid instead - that player doesn't exist in our list of choices. Maybe we could pay Dom Sheed or Dion Prestia or 100 year old Travis Boak $1.2m a year to get them over but anyone who's actually good doesn't want to come here.

So we take TDK if he's what we can get.

 

[Scotland]

Yeah everyone knows we need mids, we've thrown money at plenty and none have bitten.

If we don't pay TDK then it's not like we can pay a gun free agent mid instead - that player doesn't exist in our list of choices. Maybe we could pay Dom Sheed or Dion Prestia or 100 year old Travis Boak $1.2m a year to get them over but anyone who's actually good doesn't want to come here.

So we take TDK if he's what we can get.

It isn't binary.

How much did you pay for 21 year old Jack Steele? Two time B&F winner, two time All Australian, club captain. Probably the best performed Saint in the last decade or at least close to it.

WC signed a 26 year old Jack Graham for as a free agent on a deal that warranted band 3 compo. We didn't pay him $1m because no on else wants to join WC.

When St Kilda were good they didn't really have any high profile recruits. I don't understand the loser mentality that has crept back in since Ross The Boss left the first time.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Funny that OP started this almost 4 years ago to the day with one comment being "arguably furthest position away from a flag". In that time, OP's team:

18th, 18th, 17th, 17th, currently 17th

 

[kane249]

Can you lot even begin to imagine the inconceivable force that would be unleashed on the universe if we amalgamated the enigmas that are our 2 clubs ??!!

I believe it could be powerful enough to defy all laws of physics and even devour black holes .

( or just powerful enough to flush the toilet )

I shudder to think about the amount of umpire whinging that will occur from the fanbases by merging them

 

[The Nostradamus]

Funny that OP started this almost 4 years ago to the day with one comment being "arguably furthest position away from a flag". In that time, OP's team:

18th, 18th, 17th, 17th, currently 17th

Which is where you need to be instead of no mans land middle table


Not contending and not stockpiling elite talent

 

[The Nostradamus]

can we get this to part 3?

 

[Freddy Swift]

always was saints never ending as well nothing new as they say they a pretty good for 1 flag

Can you repeat that in English this time?

 

[boncer34]

Which is where you need to be instead of no mans land middle table


Not contending and not stockpiling elite talent

Is that what North is doing?

 

[The Nostradamus]

Is that what North is doing?

Yep

 

[jumperfan]

Yep

Elite talent like Will Phillips and Dylan Stephens?

 

[bergholt]

It isn't binary.

How much did you pay for 21 year old Jack Steele? Two time B&F winner, two time All Australian, club captain. Probably the best performed Saint in the last decade or at least close to it.

WC signed a 26 year old Jack Graham for as a free agent on a deal that warranted band 3 compo. We didn't pay him $1m because no on else wants to join WC.

When St Kilda were good they didn't really have any high profile recruits. I don't understand the loser mentality that has crept back in since Ross The Boss left the first time.

It is binary because you have to pay someone, that's the way the AFLPA want the salary cap. There's a minimum. If you don't have decent mid-age players then you end up overpaying veterans or kids and either way that messes up your salary structure.

Obviously we're trying to sign the Jack Steele types as well, every club is. Last year it was Paddy Dow (injured) and Liam Henry (injured). We also had a go at Callaghan amongst others. Still gotta get them. If we had a few good 21 year olds ready to come to the Saints then maybe we'd let TDK slide past - we don't, again, they don't exist. And signing 21 year olds doesn't help with our huge gap in the 24-28 age range.

When we were good before we based our success on a couple of high-profile recruits (Gehrig and Hamill) who helped build a winning culture, along with a bunch of very high draft picks (Roo, Kosi, Ball, X Clarke, BJ, etc) including two priority picks. That avenue isn't really open to anyone any more - those guys would likely be poached JHF-style these days.

The comp is fundamentally different than it was then. Rebuilding is much harder: there are more teams, drafts are more compromised, free agency is biased against small clubs, and there are no priority pick-style mechanisms.

In the old days the comp was broadly serious about equalisation. Now it doesn't really happen. It's structurally biased against small Vic clubs which is why many Saints supporters (and North supporters) are just drifting away from footy. You can say we've been incompetent, because we definitely have, but either way it's not much fun supporting a club that's never really likely to succeed.

 

[The Nostradamus]

Elite talent like Will Phillips and Dylan Stephens?

Correct

 

[Bill Crouse]

Which is where you need to be instead of no mans land middle table


Not contending and not stockpiling elite talent

No team needs to be in the bottom 2 for five years straight, that is a list management disaster and unprecedented levels of shit since equalisation measures were introduced. I'm sure Richmond are going to really appreciate the top 5 pick you will give them this year.

 

[bergholt]

Elite talent like Will Phillips

Use his full name please - Wilson Phillips

 

[Saints43]

Which is where you need to be instead of no mans land middle table


Not contending and not stockpiling elite talent

Very chirpy after the big win this week.
Well done to you and the stockpile respectively.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Fours years later, and this post is still relevant.

Worrying for Saints

To be honest I would be more pissed off having a list that’s capable of contending but instead have been doing nothing for the last couple years like Carlton

 

[Scotland]

It is binary because you have to pay someone, that's the way the AFLPA want the salary cap. There's a minimum. If you don't have decent mid-age players then you end up overpaying veterans or kids and either way that messes up your salary structure.

Obviously we're trying to sign the Jack Steele types as well, every club is. Last year it was Paddy Dow (injured) and Liam Henry (injured). We also had a go at Callaghan amongst others. Still gotta get them. If we had a few good 21 year olds ready to come to the Saints then maybe we'd let TDK slide past - we don't, again, they don't exist. And signing 21 year olds doesn't help with our huge gap in the 24-28 age range.

When we were good before we based our success on a couple of high-profile recruits (Gehrig and Hamill) who helped build a winning culture, along with a bunch of very high draft picks (Roo, Kosi, Ball, X Clarke, BJ, etc) including two priority picks. That avenue isn't really open to anyone any more - those guys would likely be poached JHF-style these days.

The comp is fundamentally different than it was then. Rebuilding is much harder: there are more teams, drafts are more compromised, free agency is biased against small clubs, and there are no priority pick-style mechanisms.

In the old days the comp was broadly serious about equalisation. Now it doesn't really happen. It's structurally biased against small Vic clubs which is why many Saints supporters (and North supporters) are just drifting away from footy. You can say we've been incompetent, because we definitely have, but either way it's not much fun supporting a club that's never really likely to succeed.

Loser mentality. St Kilda probably have the best crop of under 25s since the Riewoldt/Goddard era and fans are resigned to paying massive overs to a ruckman they don't really need. Weird.

Who has been poached from St Kilda in the last decade? Battle as a free agent last year... Blake Acres? Josh Bruce? Given you added Brad Hill, Dan Butler, Jack Higgins, Jack Steele, Brad Crouch etc. it's not like St Kilda are a carcass being picked over like GC/GWS have been,

St Kilda burnt the early picks they had on McCartin and Billings. In 2018 you took Max King. Good selection.

Last year your pick 7 became pick 8. Your FA compo which would've been 8 became 10. My team had pick 3 before we traded it. Ashcroft and Lombard weren't available to us either. 2023 your pick 12 became 17. 2022 your pick 9 became pick 10. Guess what, my team had pick 3 again. And guess what, another Ashcroft still wasn't available to us then either. You can cry about the draft - which sucks - but if you are hovering 6th-12th each year you are never going to have great draft picks anyway.

My team - worst in the comp - got pick 1 then pick 30. Back in the day that used to get you 1 (Riewoldt), 2 (Koschitzke) and 18 (traded for Gehrig). Different era and it was easier for bottom clubs then. But you also got FA compo picks for Goddard, Dal Santo, Battle and were able to add players via that mechanism also so it's not like the system is stacked against you in particular. The draft and player movement is a joke now, but no point longing for 25 years ago.

The real issue is that St Kilda did what Carlton with with Mick Malthouse and brought back Ross the Boss thinking they are better than they are. And now it's pretty obvious they list isn't good and there's no real clear strategy. Which is why this thread exists about living in no man's land.

 

[Pistol Night]

To be honest I would be more pissed off having a list that’s capable of contending but instead have been doing nothing for the last couple years like Carlton

Couple years? Decades

 

[Freomaniac]

What was surprising was Ross the Boss smiling away having a chuckle or three yesterday.

Strange look.

Well Ross Lyon is getting paid decent money regardless of the results.

He always impressed me. He always found a way of getting a job, even during a pandemic lol.

He was working on footy crucified .... Um I mean footy classified on channel 9

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I’m enjoying reading this pissed off contest.

 

[CharacterFirst]

 

[bergholt]

Loser mentality. St Kilda probably have the best crop of under 25s since the Riewoldt/Goddard era and fans are resigned to paying massive overs to a ruckman they don't really need. Weird.

No idea what "loser mentality" means but best crop of under 25s is pretty subjective until they grow further, we've all seen false dawns with groups that just don't end up coming through.

Either way, make or break is whether we lose the best one (Nas). Not re-signing by mid-year is a pretty negative sign and if he's been wavering about going home then losing to the bottom side doesn't help.

Apart from him there's some promising ones who definitely aren't the finished article yet. This is why we're pumping games into them even when they aren't necessarily in form, so that we find out how close we are.

Who has been poached from St Kilda in the last decade? Battle as a free agent last year... Blake Acres? Josh Bruce? Given you added Brad Hill, Dan Butler, Jack Higgins, Jack Steele, Brad Crouch etc. it's not like St Kilda are a carcass being picked over like GC/GWS have been,

Yeah basically everyone we've lost we wanted to lose, even Battle if you listen to some people.

Had trouble getting good ones though. Generally the big Victorian clubs get them. Hawks get Battle and Barrass, Pies get Houston, Geelong get Bailey Smith; before that Hawks get Amon, Carlton get Hollands, Collingwood get McStay, Geelong get Bowes, Bruhn, Ollie Henry, Richmond get Hopper and Taranto, etc etc etc.

Very few good players end up nominating St Kilda, North or the Dogs usually. This is one of the reasons I'm saying the system is fundamentally skewed against small Vic clubs.

St Kilda burnt the early picks they had on McCartin and Billings. In 2018 you took Max King. Good selection.

Last year your pick 7 became pick 8. Your FA compo which would've been 8 became 10. My team had pick 3 before we traded it. Ashcroft and Lombard weren't available to us either. 2023 your pick 12 became 17. 2022 your pick 9 became pick 10. Guess what, my team had pick 3 again. And guess what, another Ashcroft still wasn't available to us then either. You can cry about the draft - which sucks - but if you are hovering 6th-12th each year you are never going to have great draft picks anyway.

Yeah totally. But the problem with us finishing low is that then our membership base shrinks. You guys still end up with 100k members even when you're finishing at the bottom for years on end. Doesn't work the same way for us.

My team - worst in the comp - got pick 1 then pick 30. Back in the day that used to get you 1 (Riewoldt), 2 (Koschitzke) and 18 (traded for Gehrig). Different era and it was easier for bottom clubs then. But you also got FA compo picks for Goddard, Dal Santo, Battle and were able to add players via that mechanism also so it's not like the system is stacked against you in particular. The draft and player movement is a joke now, but no point longing for 25 years ago.

Nah, system is definitely stacked against the three small Vic clubs:

• fewer father-sons (because historically less successful so fewer 100 gamers)
• no go-home factor (because those coming home to Vic go elsewhere)
• weaker remuneration outside the salary cap (smaller supporter bases mean fewer rich donors)
• less non-football support for players (because being on the AFL drip means you have to cut non-core activities)
• structural incompetence (less money to spend on recruiting and admin)

The system removed mechanisms which would balance these out, like guaranteed priority picks (even though basically no-one ever tanked outside Melbourne that one year) and added mechanisms which exacerbate them (free agency, academies). And every year the big clubs whinge about the small clubs getting given money.

It's fine, it is what it is. But pretending it's a level playing field and that the small clubs bring it on themselves is pretty illogical.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Well Ross Lyon is getting paid decent money regardless of the results.

He always impressed me. He always found a way of getting a job, even during a pandemic lol.

He was working on footy crucified .... Um I mean footy classified on channel 9

His win loss is worse than Rattans yet manages to survive and prosper

 

[littlecreatures]

His win loss is worse than Rattans yet manages to survive and prosper

Context is everything right. The ins and outs from Ratten’s last game as coach to Ross game on the weekend.

Ins:

• Liam O’Connell (age 22 & 6 matches)
• Hugo Garcia (age 20 & 19 matches)
• Mattaes Philipou (age 21 & 39 matches)
• Anthony Caminiti (age 22 & 43 matches)
• Angus McLennan (age 23 & 5 matches)
• Jack Macrae (age 31 & 259 matches)
• Cooper Sharman (age 25 & 57 matches)
• Darcy Wilson (age 20 & 33 matches)
• Ryan Byrnes (age 24 & 73 matches)
• Jimmy Webster (age 32 & 175 matches)
• Mason Wood (age 32 & 143 matches)
• Max Hall (age 23 & 10 matches)
• Lance Collard (age 20 & 12 matches)
• Tobie Travaglia (age 19 & 5 matches)
• Mitchito Owens (age 22 & 62 matches)

Outs:

• Max King
• Tom Campbell
• Seb Ross
• Ben Long
• Dan Hannebery
• Dan Butler
• Jarred Lienert
• Dean Kent
• Josh Battle
• Dougald Howard
• Ben Paton
• Hunter Clark
• Zak Jones
• Tim Membrey