Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

[mike123]

Possibly. I reckon you could develop Kylo as much as you like and the blowback for him being able to kill Luke would still be somewhere in the neighborhood of nuclear if current negative reactions to this movie are any indication.

And I reckon the negative reactions would have been softened if we got to see Luke in action and go out like a boss instead of dying because he used the force to much. Besides why would they care about blowback here when the whole movie is just them showing how much they don't care about blowback.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

What's not to understand though? The Empire was defeated, the scenes on Jakku confirm this, the FO rose out of the remnants and were waiting for the right time to strike, which they did. In TLJ, their fleet capitalised on their destruction of the Republic and began seizing planets while chasing the remains of the Resistance. It's all in the crawl.

It just seems pretty clear to me.

It's not the same. In the originals the Empire is a government that turned into a fascist dicatorship. It even has remnants and a facade of democracy within it like real world authoritarian regimes i.e. they bang on about the Senate in A New Hope.

The First Order has none of that. It's not even the ******* government. They manage the non-trivial matter of building a giant military, recruiting for it and building weapons to destroy planets. Why didn't the government not come down on them like a ton of bricks in the last 30 years? What's in it for the First Order officers? Why does all their stuff look like the Empire's? Is there a nation-state behind it? No answers, no explanation. Just vague allusions to "Snoke was powerful and wise". That's laziness. Disney laziness.

 

[mike123]

I would have been fine with it if he belted Kylo in to submission but couldn't kill him for moral reasons and to teach him that the dark isn't more powerful, so he done an Obi Wan.

Then again some would complain that is too direct a copy.

Although, then we would have Kylo being defeated by everyone except Finn, who still matched him for a while. What a wet lettuce villain.

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Obi Wan doesn't belt Anakin into submission though.

 

[glenferry23]

I thought Kylo was at his best when he was piloting his TIE fighter. He was a on a rampage, destroyed the Resistance’s X-Wing hangar with ease. But then he had to be called back so we could have another hour or so of chase awesomeness time.

He was unstoppable. I was hoping somehow that Poe’s X-Wing would’ve survived at least so perhaps they could’ve gone toe to toe. Would’ve been great to see, the two best pilots on each side.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Disney/LFL have completely mismanaged the Star Wars IP.

I don't mean ticket sales. But book stories, canon, movie scripts, etc. Specifically not providing sufficient exposition. Even now, there's still no clear picture of the first order -- even the aftermath trilogy which was tasked with giving it backstory still left it in a Mystery Box unable to say exactly who Snoke is and how he got control of the First Order. The book trilogy left it an unanswered cliffhanger so TLJ could address it, which RJ ended up not doing.

Perfect example of canon/story mismanagement

 

[bourbons]

And I reckon the negative reactions would have been softened if we got to see Luke in action and go out like a boss instead of dying because he used the force to much. Besides why would they care about blowback here when the whole movie is just them showing how much they don't care about blowback.

Well I'm pretty sure they didn't produce a movie to evoke such vitriolic negative reactions on purpose. Might have underestimated the effect stuff like Snoke's demise and Rose's character have had on people, but I don't think its unreasonable to assume an event like Luke's death would have been a higher priority and thought about a bit more than some of the other story elements.

 

[mike123]

Well I'm pretty sure they didn't produce a movie to evoke such vitriolic negative reactions on purpose. Might have underestimated the effect stuff like Snoke's demise and Rose's character have had on people, but I don't think its unreasonable to assume an event like Luke's death would have been a higher priority and thought about a bit more than some of the other story elements.

So they went with Luke dying because he used a magic trick, this excuse isn't good enough.

 

[edgie]

Yeah the issues you mention aside, thats pretty good I reckon.

No idea why they've made him so lackluster. He'd wanna step it up significantly in the next movie, but if they were going for that arc it really should have happened this movie. Setting it apparently hours after the conclusion of TFA really hamstrung them I think, strange choice.

Then you could have had Poe take Luke's X-Wing since his was destroyed too.

Yeah. The timeline is stuffed, set it too late and the cliff hanger ending goes indirectly unresolved. Start it there then have a time jump and you do something no Star Wars flick has ever done before... Although they already introduced flashbacks so maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

Really, Luke should have owned the Knights of Ren. You get him being awesome but without the issue of the villain being prematurely slain. They should have found him and Rey on the island while Kylo is still on the ship with Snoke.

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[edgie]

Obi Wan doesn't belt Anakin into submission though.

He did the first time

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[mike123]

He did the first time

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No he didn't, Anakin had him in the back foot the whole fight, it was only till Obi Wan got the advantage.

 

[ClokesShankedIt]

It's not the same. In the originals the Empire is a government that turned into a fascist dicatorship. It even has remnants and a facade of democracy within it like real world authoritarian regimes i.e. they bang on about the Senate in A New Hope.

The First Order has none of that. It's not even the ******* government. They manage the non-trivial matter of building a giant military, recruiting for it and building weapons to destroy planets. Why didn't the government not come down on them like a ton of bricks in the last 30 years? What's in it for the First Order officers? Why does all their stuff look like the Empire's? Is there a nation-state behind it? No answers, no explanation. Just vague allusions to "Snoke was powerful and wise". That's laziness. Disney laziness.

It's just crap writing. It's the equivalent of, say, Indonesia militarising with the stated position of taking over Australia, and our government saying "yeah nah we aren't responding" to the extent that there is a breakaway faction of the ADF that goes off and fights.

WTF?

 

[Summer Nights]

You could say all of those things about the original Star Wars.

How did the emperor just dissolve the senate? Why didn’t they stop him? No way that thousands of star systems would just give up their democracy, including all the storm troopers who are loyal to their home planets. Why didn’t the troopers question it?
Why does Darth Vader take orders from non force users when he could just kill them?
Why don’t the ships look sufficiently advanced to match the technology?
Why the hell would the Death Star have such a major design flaw?

... all of these “lazy bits of writing” explained by exposition of later films.

 

[edgie]

You know why? Because the OT were the first lot of films in the story. The later films did explain it. Something that's not going to happen with the ST, which to remember carries on the same story after hitting the reset button harder than a kid frustrated on Ninja Gaiden, because there won't be ST prequels and it's already shown it has no interest of doing it on camera.

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[Bomberboyokay]

You could say all of those things about the original Star Wars.

How did the emperor just dissolve the senate? Why didn’t they stop him? No way that thousands of star systems would just give up their democracy, including all the storm troopers who are loyal to their home planets. Why didn’t the troopers question it?
Why does Darth Vader take orders from non force users when he could just kill them?
Why don’t the ships look sufficiently advanced to match the technology?
Why the hell would the Death Star have such a major design flaw?

... all of these “lazy bits of writing” explained by exposition of later films.

These are false equivalencies.

 

[Summer Nights]

You know why? Because the OT were the first lot of films in the story. The later films did explain it. Something that's not going to happen with the ST, which to remember carries on the same story after hitting the reset button harder than a kid frustrated on Ninja Gaiden, because there won't be ST prequels and it's already shown it has no interest of doing it on camera.

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You could make that same argument with the OT. Nobody knew there’d be prequels and Rogue One to fill in the major plot problems. And we don’t know that there won’t be additional canon down the track to answer our questions about the new trilogy. In fact, I think it’s highly likely that in the next 40 years, there will be new canon to complete the backstory. It’s EXACTLY the same.

 

[Summer Nights]

These are false equivalencies.

They’re true equivalences actually. Very accurate ones.

 

[mike123]

I've been done to death but the OT was the start so therefore it didn't need to be explained (even though it was). The ST is a sequel so the turn of events that lead us from point a to be b have to be explained.

 

[mike123]

You could say all of those things about the original Star Wars.

How did the emperor just dissolve the senate? Why didn’t they stop him? No way that thousands of star systems would just give up their democracy, including all the storm troopers who are loyal to their home planets. Why didn’t the troopers question it?

That was the point of the Death of the Star.

 

[edgie]

You could make that same argument with the OT. Nobody knew there’d be prequels and Rogue One to fill in the major plot problems. And we don’t know that there won’t be additional canon down the track to answer our questions about the new trilogy. In fact, I think it’s highly likely that in the next 40 years, there will be new canon to complete the backstory. It’s EXACTLY the same.

...

Except we did because Star Wars became episode IV in 1980.

IDGAF about additional canon. The best canon is the stuff that happens on the screen.

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[JackOutback]

...

Except we did because Star Wars became episode IV in 1980.

IDGAF about additional canon. The best canon is the stuff that happens on the screen.

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That was as much wishful thinking/leaving the door open as anything else. There was absolutely no guarantee we were getting the prequels, just as no one really expected the sequels before Disney swooped in. If Willow had taken off or Lucas had another great idea, Star Wars would have been left where it was.

 

[edgie]

That was as much wishful thinking/leaving the door open as anything else. There was absolutely no guarantee we were getting the prequels, just as no one really expected the sequels before Disney swooped in. If Willow had taken off or Lucas had another great idea, Star Wars would have been left where it was.

The ST was absolutely gonna happen, that was the point of the Phantom Menace 3D release (other than being awesome fun), to warm people up for Star Wars again, just like OT special editions and Shadows of the Empire multimedia project in the 90s.

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[Bomberboyokay]

Maybe they ****ed around with the title crawl on the home video releases before but the movies were called Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi until the 1997 special editions.

 

[Tuco]

Maybe they ****** around with the title crawl on the home video releases before but the movies were called Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi until the 1997 special editions.

Even earlier I think.

 

[King Elvis]

The movie isn’t just inconsistent with the entire universe, its inconsistent and s**t within itself.

Poe single handedly gets them a crack at the Dreadnought, which would’ve destroyed the entire Resistance fleet; and gets slapped and demoted for it.

Paige is a hero for taking it down.

Holdo is a hero for taking them out and sacrificing herself.

Poe then stops the heroic last stand, because its not the right thing to do, even though Holdo was a hero for doing it.

Finn then goes for the suicide messiah move, but is prevented from doing it, because it’s not right... so the entire Resistance would die instead.

Great, selfless sacrifice is now something we’re against...

Until Luke, the most valuable asset in the entire galaxy, sacrifices himself to save them. So instead of a disposable ex storm trooper, we have the only Jedi Master in entire galaxy die... and he’s a hero for it.

 

[edgie]

The movie isn’t just inconsistent with the entire universe, its inconsistent and s**t within itself.

Poe single handedly gets them a crack at the Dreadnought, which would’ve destroyed the entire Resistance fleet; and gets slapped and demoted for it.

Paige is a hero for taking it down.

Holdo is a hero for taking them out and sacrificing herself.

Poe then stops the heroic last stand, because its not the right thing to do, even though Holdo was a hero for doing it.

Finn then goes for the suicide messiah move, but is prevented from doing it, because it’s not right... so the entire Resistance would die instead.

Great, selfless sacrifice is now something we’re against...

Until Luke, the most valuable asset in the entire galaxy, sacrifices himself to save them. So instead of a disposable ex storm trooper, we have the only Jedi Master in entire galaxy die... and he’s a hero for it.

Except he didn't really save them. They escaped with plenty of time to spare.

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