Swans have ten premierships

[brmi]

You seriously don't get it. None of those flags warrant being counted. Read Carter's book, or at least look a bit deeper to understand the difference between the ones you have put forward and the Swan's ones in question.

Jog on sport. It's pretty clear who doesn't get it.

 

[rapidfire7]

Jog on sport. It's pretty clear who doesn't get it.

If people don't think VFA premierships/pre 1897 premierships should be included, then they should at least take a moment to understand the very well thought out arguments that have been put forward by its proponents. Arguments by very well credentialed people, which have been presented to the AFL commission for consideration and have resulted in a book being published. You may not agree that they should be counted. No one is asking you to, but when people compare those Premierships (which were officially recognised up until around 1920) with AFLW, state league and reserve grade flags etc., it's lazy at best.

 

[adammania9]

Never really understood the argument that premierships won in the “amateur era” are insignificant compared to those won today.

This was when players worked 6-day, 70 hour hard labouring work weeks then went to training and played on the weekends. Would not have been easy to front up and play great footy compared to those who play and train for the game all day every day.

 

[bloodsbigot]

Never really understood the argument that premierships won in the “amateur era” are insignificant compared to those won today.

Probably because 16 flags compared to 3 looks a lot shinier.

 

[adammania9]

Probably because 16 flags compared to 3 looks a lot shinier.

???

I figure that’s some shot at me because I’m a Collingwood supporter, but it doesn’t make great sense.

I don’t really give a rats about Collingwood successes that came before my living memory. I certainly don’t use it as a trump card in debates like some supporters. That said, I appreciate my club’s history and embrace it within my own supporter group. Every club’s supporters should.

 

[Liam Boy]

everyone knows centenary = 100, so North have 103 flags (3 regular flags and one centenary flag). Sorry everyone else

 

[Elixuh]

It’s this way because certain clubs, and I won’t name names, but Carlton and Essendon, need to count flags they won when half the country was fighting in world wars.

 

[Daka]

VFA was whole different competition to count them with VFL/AFL would be like counting SANFL flags with VFL/AFL.

 

[bloodsbigot]

???

I figure that’s some shot at me because I’m a Collingwood supporter,

It's a shot at all the big clubs prior to 1990 who think they're king s**t by lording all their country league premierships over everyone.

Then again, I'm a swans supporter, so I also have a bias.

 

[bloodsbigot]

VFA was whole different competition to count them with VFL/AFL would be like counting SANFL flags with VFL/AFL.

I think there's a good argument to count VFA flags. Otherwise you should discount VFL flags.

VFA was footballs top flight until 1896 and you could argue VFA was comparable to VFL for a while.

No competition was ever officially Australian footballs top flight until the creation of the AFL.

 

[Daka]

I think there's a good argument to count VFA flags. Otherwise you should discount VFL flags.

VFA was footballs top flight until 1896 and you could argue VFA was comparable to VFL for a while.

No competition was ever officially Australian footballs top flight until the creation of the AFL.

It doesn't matter if it was comparable it was a completely different competition you need to understand that. You can say it became a lot more professional when it became the AFL sure & that's fair sure.

But VFA flags should be counted as that VFA flags & not VFL/AFL flags.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

If people don't think VFA premierships/pre 1897 premierships should be included, then they should at least take a moment to understand the very well thought out arguments that have been put forward by its proponents. Arguments by very well credentialed people, which have been presented to the AFL commission for consideration and have resulted in a book being published. You may not agree that they should be counted. No one is asking you to, but when people compare those Premierships (which were officially recognised up until around 1920) with AFLW, state league and reserve grade flags etc., it's lazy at best.

Eight specific clubs left one competition and formed a new one. There are still clubs in existence, specifically Williamstown and Port Melbourne, that were playing with the big boys in 1896, and weren't invited to their competition. Put yourself in the shoes of those two clubs, for example. Is it fair that premierships that they (theoretically) could have won pre-1897 get counted alongside a competiton that they were not able to join, because they weren't invited in it? From their perspective it's two different competitions. One they could play in, one they couldn't.

I understand a million things have changed since then, not least the AFL themselves taking over organisation of the VFA in the 90's. But Geelong and Geelong associated people should not get the historical benefit from counting statistics from before a competitiont that they deliberately broke away from and prevented other teams from accessing for sporting reasons. If the continuation of league premierships was so important, then the Geelong of 1897 should not have broken away to form a new competition.

There's no disagreement Geelong wasn't the premier Victorian teams in those years, or that Geelong can't count or organise their own club premierships in whatever grouping or hierarchy they see fit. But there is no arguments Carter can make that makes the obvious delineations of specific competitions formation and continuing nature, well, obvious delineations.

 

[Underarm]

It’s this way because certain clubs, and I won’t name names, but Carlton and Essendon, need to count flags they won when half the country was fighting in world wars.

Weird take considering your team won just as many in those periods....

 

[Elixuh]

Weird take considering your team won just as many in those periods....

The difference is we don’t set them up in the centre circle pregame

 

[rapidfire7]

VFA was whole different competition to count them with VFL/AFL would be like counting SANFL flags with VFL/AFL.

It's not the same at all. The SANFL is/was an entirely separate comp made up with with entirely different teams. The VFA was the Premier comp in the country at the time, with all the foundation clubs competing (plus a few others). Those flags were counted in club's official club tallies up until the 1920s until the revisionists removed them. Whether you think they should be counted or not, you're comparing apples with oranges comparing SANFL and old VFA flags.

 

[Tiger2709]

I think there's a good argument to count VFA flags. Otherwise you should discount VFL flags.

VFA was footballs top flight until 1896 and you could argue VFA was comparable to VFL for a while.

No competition was ever officially Australian footballs top flight until the creation of the AFL.

The difference is the old VFL and the AFL are same competition just renamed at the time it occurred it was barely noticeable. The VFA on the otherhand was a different competition it's pretty simple really, clubs can count the VFA flags for what they were, VFA flags.

On SM-N950F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sentinel]

This rubbish comes up all the time. Of course Sydney can count all of the premierships they won across their history, no matter the competition, in their own records.

That's completely separate to the record books of the VFL/AFL which obviously should not include records from a different competition (VFL/VFA), nor should they need to scrap older premierships from before 1990 which were won in the same competition because some people subjectively don't consider them as important. A record book is an objective list of facts, people attaching 'worth' to it is completely irrelevant.

 

[Tiger2709]

It's not the same at all. The SANFL is/was an entirely separate comp made up with with entirely different teams. The VFA was the Premier comp in the country at the time, with all the foundation clubs competing (plus a few others). Those flags were counted in club's official club tallies up until the 1920s until the revisionists removed them. Whether you think they should be counted or not, you're comparing apples with oranges comparing SANFL and old VFA flags.

They can still be counted in the clubs tallies and should be, like all VFA flags won by what are now AFL clubs, just not in the VFL/AFL tally, the concept of counting flags from a different competition is ridiculous.

SANFL and VFA flags are similar in one way, they are both not VFL/AFL flags.

 

[Purple Suit]

Good on them, but I believe they are selling themselves short and that those flags should be formally recognised in the club's premiership list by the AFL - just as Geelong's, Carlton's, Melbourne's, Collingwood's and Essendon's (etc.) extra flag/s should be.

I believe that all flags from 1870 should be counted. That is, all flags from the PREMIER Australian Rules competition in the country at the time (sorry Port Adelaide), which contained the majority of the teams which then made up the VFL in 1897. What many people don't know is that these flags were in fact counted in each club's official totals up until about 1920, before the revisionists came along and essentially erased them from history. It's all unpacked in Colin Carter's book - 'Football's Forgotten Years'.

As we know, Carter has been pushing for history to be properly restored for some time now. Trying to correct what the revionists all but wiped out 100 years ago, and to properly honor the accomplishments of these great and pioneering teams of the past with the respect and recognition they deserve.

Clubs like Sydney, Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon should really get behind the push too and show solidarity with Carter and Geelong to make this important restoration of history come into fruition. Let's be honest, if Collingwood had more than 1 flag to gain, Eddie would be first in line kicking and screaming.

Such an arrogant stance. Footy was being played all over the country in the late 1800's yet with no way of means testing you label Victoria as the best so there they should get AFL premiership status. This is like the NBA declaring themselves World Champions.

 

[Dan26]

This rubbish comes up all the time. Of course Sydney can count all of the premierships they won across their history, no matter the competition, in their own records.

That's completely separate to the record books of the VFL/AFL which obviously should not include records from a different competition (VFL/VFA), nor should they need to scrap older premierships from before 1990 which were won in the same competition because some people subjectively don't consider them as important. A record book is an objective list of facts, people attaching 'worth' to it is completely irrelevant.

Exactly. People, for some stupid reason want the VFL/AFL to count things in the history of that competition that didn’t occur in the history of that competition. Next they’ll be wanting the AFL to recognise the LA Lakers 17 NBA championships.

 

[GWT6]

So Port should be able to count their state flags?

No - only premierships won at the elite level count. Melbourne wouldn't count a Reserves, Casey (or Sandringham in the past) Premiership.

 

[Colonial]

No - only premierships won at the elite level count. Melbourne wouldn't count a Reserves, Casey (or Sandringham in the past) Premiership.

But it was anll elite when there was no national comp. It was all state until the 90’s.

 

[GWT6]

But it was anll elite when there was no national comp. It was all state until the 90’s.

It has always been the elite comp.

Nobody decided to leave the VFL to test themself in the great leagues of SA and WA. A few went for money or to go home, but the VFL was where interstate players came if they wanted to play against the best.

Everyone knows that, but the AFL over the last couple of decades has pandered to the WA and SA supporters by including second-rate players in the Hall of Fame and pretending that those comps were anywhere close to the VFL. Nobody with a brain believes it, but it's about the cash for the AFL so they don't want to upset the fragile egos west of The Grampians.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It has always been the elite comp.

Nobody decided to leave the VFL to test themself in the great leagues of SA and WA. A few went for money or to go home, but the VFL was where interstate players came if they wanted to play against the best.

Everyone knows that, but the AFL over the last couple of decades has pandered to the WA and SA supporters by including second-rate players in the Hall of Fame and pretending that those comps were anywhere close to the VFL. Nobody with a brain believes it, but it's about the cash for the AFL so they don't want to upset the fragile egos west of The Grampians.

This is probably true from about the late 60's onward, intensifying over time. It isn't necessarily true before then.

Keep in mind that the VFA, to varying amounts over time, also took away some of the talent pool in Victoria.

 

[rapidfire7]

Exactly. People, for some stupid reason want the VFL/AFL to count things in the history of that competition that didn’t occur in the history of that competition. Next they’ll be wanting the AFL to recognise the LA Lakers 17 NBA championships.

They were counted for about 30 years in the same way as VFL flags were. It's not like Carter and others just came up with this with no merit whatsoever.