The Antifa Thread

[CM86]

No problems with them protesting it. But I feel that anti-fascism is only part of their agenda. They have a broad scope that is widening.
I am continuing to observe changes globally in government control. The world is in a volatile position and the US is only part of the conversation.

What do you feel is another part of their agenda?

What in your opinion is the worst (realistic) outcome of Antifa?

 

[Jello_B]

What do you feel is another part of their agenda?

What in your opinion is the worst (realistic) outcome of Antifa?

I think there would be some in Antifa that have an anarchist agenda. An aversion to property rights, controlled immigration, traditional family structures etc...
Worst outcome is who knows? I doubt very much they would get any real political traction as they seem emotive and poorly organised. More likely property damage, relatively small scale assaults. Hopefully they don’t go further and organise a terrorist style attack. That would be a sad outcome.
The greater threat is the response from the other side. Far more organised, ability to elucidate risk to the middle etc..
You may have been baiting Echoes but they are correct in some respects. If this continuous pushing from the extreme left keeps happening that it grows the strength of the other side (and I realise that this can be looked at both ways).
Sometimes progress requires patience.

 

[CM86]

I think there would be some in Antifa that have an anarchist agenda. An aversion to property rights, controlled immigration, traditional family structures etc...
Worst outcome is who knows? I doubt very much they would get any real political traction as they seem emotive and poorly organised. More likely property damage, relatively small scale assaults. Hopefully they don’t go further and organise a terrorist style attack. That would be a sad outcome.
The greater threat is the response from the other side. Far more organised, ability to elucidate risk to the middle etc..
You may have been baiting Echoes but they are correct in some respects. If this continuous pushing from the extreme left keeps happening that it grows the strength of the other side (and I realise that this can be looked at both ways).
Sometimes progress requires patience.

I believe there has already been a what can be labeled a terrorist style attack. A man threw fire bombs at an ICE building.

I think I view it from thr opposite direction. That Antifa was a response to the rise of with nationalism.
And maybe now they are fueling each other, but the 'fascists' were, are and will always be more dangerous and worse for society.

What we fear Antifa might become, is already happening on the 'other side'.

There is no excuse for Antifa's dangerous actions.
We are blaming Antifa for their own actions.
But we are also blaming Antifa for the actions of the 'other side'.

 

[Jello_B]

I believe there has already been a what can be labeled a terrorist style attack. A man threw fire bombs at an ICE building.

I think I view it from thr opposite direction. That Antifa was a response to the rise of with nationalism.
And maybe now they are fueling each other, but the 'fascists' were, are and will always be more dangerous and worse for society.

What we fear Antifa might become, is already happening on the 'other side'.

There is no excuse for Antifa's dangerous actions.
We are blaming Antifa for their own actions.
But we are also blaming Antifa for the actions of the 'other side'.

What would be examples of fascism rising in the west?
Kind of on the final sentence. There needs to be acceptance that certain groups have particular concerns. For example, I will use Australia as I am more knowledgeable here but the point is transferable. If a group are advocating increased acceptance of refugees, and those refugees are getting government assistance over and above local people that are struggling said locals may be aggrieved. If they have no way of explaining their position of dispute without being labelled something that that don’t want to be labelled then it seems fairly obvious what the outcomes will be.
Nationalism is an interesting concept which seems to have been weaponised by both sides unfortunately. Multi-culturalism is still relatively new and in its infancy, and it’s certainly not practiced consistently across the planet. What will happen if mono-cultures start dominating economically over the next 20-30 years.

 

[CM86]

What would be examples of fascism rising in the west?

Well just recently, the POTUS standing in front of a rally as they chanted "send her back".

An increase of white nationalist marches.

Members of the KKK marching down the streets of America again.

Kind of on the final sentence. There needs to be acceptance that certain groups have particular concerns. For example, I will use Australia as I am more knowledgeable here but the point is transferable. If a group are advocating increased acceptance of refugees, and those refugees are getting government assistance over and above local people that are struggling said locals may be aggrieved. If they have no way of explaining their position of dispute without being labelled something that that don’t want to be labelled then it seems fairly obvious what the outcomes will be.
Nationalism is an interesting concept which seems to have been weaponised by both sides unfortunately. Multi-culturalism is still relatively new and in its infancy, and it’s certainly not practiced consistently across the planet. What will happen if mono-cultures start dominating economically over the next 20-30 years.

Sure. If it's true it should be discussed and ideas should be exchanged without fear of repercussion.

The problem is the deliberate use of those issues to push white nationalist issues.
Muddying the water with untruths, deceptions, and outright lies.

Fear of teenage crime in Melbourne? Absolutely lets talk about it, find solutions and act on them.
Turning it into an issue on race, immigration and 'the left', suddenly it's a divide of racist and non racist.

Take Australia. We've dehumanised refugees to the point that preventable deaths are looked at as a political issue rather than a tragedy.

People on centrelink are either junkie scumbags who should get a job, or they are hard-done-by battlers who get less than 'illegal immigrants'.

Conversations deserve to be had, and need to be had. But we need to be educated and listen to facts, as well as taking into consideration the human element.

 

[TimmeT]

Well just recently, the POTUS standing in front of a rally as they chanted "send her back".

An increase of white nationalist marches.

Members of the KKK marching down the streets of America again.


Sure. If it's true it should be discussed and ideas should be exchanged without fear of repercussion.

The problem is the deliberate use of those issues to push white nationalist issues.
Muddying the water with untruths, deceptions, and outright lies.

Fear of teenage crime in Melbourne? Absolutely lets talk about it, find solutions and act on them.
Turning it into an issue on race, immigration and 'the left', suddenly it's a divide of racist and non racist.

Take Australia. We've dehumanised refugees to the point that preventable deaths are looked at as a political issue rather than a tragedy.

People on centrelink are either junkie scumbags who should get a job, or they are hard-done-by battlers who get less than 'illegal immigrants'.

Conversations deserve to be had, and need to be had. But we need to be educated and listen to facts, as well as taking into consideration the human element.

People have talked about the issues around the teengae crime situation and when they propose situations to resolve it like getting the police and justice system to deal with it properl they are deemed to be harsh or not reasonable among other things. Furthermore whenever the fact that there is an excessive per capita over representation with African origin males gets bought up they get labelled as racist, ridiculous or unfair by those on the left and this fact is dismissed by them and attempts are made to shutdown and deflect from this issue.

Refugees come to Australia through illegal methods or for questionable reasons and as a result some in society dislike the fact and make comments calling for methods and systems to ensure appropriate refugees are taken in. Yet we have rthe same group of individuals who criticise the government for these supposedly preventable deaths (due to refugees not getting their way without question) who were willing to advocate for mechanisms which would result in unfortunate and avoidable drowning at sea to a far greater number.

People generally have liittle trouble with welfare however they have trouble with when welfare goes to the wrong people or it is abused. There have been times where refugees have been shown to have got more from the system than some citizens and thus people perceive this is wrong and want the welfare going to them first. Furthermore the same issue arises when the matter of homeless being put behind refugee. Yet again the lefties come up with comments such as racism when this matter is raised to shutdown discussion and show they either can't or don't want to discuss this matter.

So here we have you going on about how it is the right silencing discussions and blaming them for being the one not willing to discuss the issues properly when this couldn't be further from the truth and simply is very disingenuous. Here you are going the right the right and claiming that they are the ones using issues like welfare payments to push other agendas when the left is doing the very same thing by wanting to increase payments to certain subsections of the community which have been known to take advantage of it and then shouting racist or labelling people as pig capitalists for not supporting. Maybe when the lefties can come and acknowledge that there is a significant problem with African teenager crime we might get somewhere with resolving this. But while it is simply just being labelled as racist by lefties and they don't want to acknowledge the fact we will get nowher

Maybe when the left wamt to discuss things openly and actually tackle their difficult issues then we might get somewhere but until they do we wont. We will just see the clowns in ANTIFA continue to claim they are opposing fascists by beating people who hold fairly moderate right wing views like simply supporting legal migration

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Maybe when the left wamt to discuss things openly and actually tackle their difficult issues then we might get somewhere but until they do we wont. We will just see the clowns in ANTIFA continue to claim they are opposing fascists by beating people who hold fairly moderate right wing views like simply supporting legal migration

Timme, what evidence do you have that antifa is beating up people with moderate right wing views?

 

[Jello_B]

Well just recently, the POTUS standing in front of a rally as they chanted "send her back".

An increase of white nationalist marches.

Members of the KKK marching down the streets of America again.


Sure. If it's true it should be discussed and ideas should be exchanged without fear of repercussion.

The problem is the deliberate use of those issues to push white nationalist issues.
Muddying the water with untruths, deceptions, and outright lies.

Fear of teenage crime in Melbourne? Absolutely lets talk about it, find solutions and act on them.
Turning it into an issue on race, immigration and 'the left', suddenly it's a divide of racist and non racist.

Take Australia. We've dehumanised refugees to the point that preventable deaths are looked at as a political issue rather than a tragedy.

People on centrelink are either junkie scumbags who should get a job, or they are hard-done-by battlers who get less than 'illegal immigrants'.

Conversations deserve to be had, and need to be had. But we need to be educated and listen to facts, as well as taking into consideration the human element.

All of the examples could be considered push back from those that are being disadvantaged from multiculturalism. Do you have a link to the KKK stuff I thought they were basically gone? Happy to read. I think this is where the conversation should be. What is causing this increase in the attractiveness of nationalistic beliefs?
What is your suggestion on the Sudanese crime stuff?

 

[CM86]

All of the examples could be considered push back from those that are being disadvantaged from multiculturalism.

Most of them are due to the view that multiculturalism is causing the problems in their lives. But it doesn't make it true.
And it's those building on the fears and convincing people that it's definitely true that are the villains. Especially the ones making a living off it.

Do you have a link to the KKK stuff I thought they were basically gone?

The unite the right rally included people who self-identified as members of the KKK.
In July, before the unite the right rally, there was about 30 or 40 who turned up at a KKK rally for about an hour.
There is more, and I can provide links if you'd like?

What is causing this increase in the attractiveness of nationalistic beliefs?

I think it all stems from an element of truth. Crime rates, poverty, cultural clashes, etc. But then it's turbo-charged with mistruths and embellishments. A clever use of fear and misunderstandings to fuel hate.

The same way the KKK flourished in the 20s.


The great replacement theory is one that is pushed heavily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement#United_States

Shapiro, PJW, Tucker all fuel this fire.
They don't need to be overt in anything they say, because the message is out there already that multiculturalism is replacing Western culture.
Islam is replacing Christianity/Catholicism.
So they just stoke the fire.

All you need to do is plant the seed, and there is a wealth of misinformation available online ready to radicalise people who are genuinely concerned/scared of actual crime, poverty, etc.

Few things motivate us better than fear.
Which is why I think they want to generate so much fear around Antifa.

What is your suggestion on the Sudanese crime stuff?

A really hard one.
First I think it should be looked at as youth crime. It isn't purely a Sudanese issue, even if they do/did make up the majority.
I don't believe these criminal groups would refuse to let other nationalities join them in crime sprees.
Now any black teen committing a crime tends to be labeled Sudanese.
But making it about race it reduces the chance of actually being able to fix the problem.

This is a socioeconomic problem, not just an immigration problem.

I'd like to know what's happening at a community level with the families to resolve this. Is there support or just punishment? Is the punishment sufficient for the crimes? Is there any rehabilitation or just hardening of criminal social circles.
What is the likelihood of re-offending? Why is it so high and how can it be reduced?
What skill based opportunities are available in these areas for youths? What sports etc?
What paths are available for these youths to take, other than wanton violence, theft and destruction of property?
I think these are questions that need to be asked and answered to start finding a solution.

Youth crime isn't a new thing in Australia. It's getting a lot of media attention at the moment.



Now, the easy reply is that the vast majority of teens in Australia might have the same limited access to pathways etc and they don't commit crime. And that's true.
I think there is a problem in specific areas, and once the seed has been planted it spreads very quickly.

But I do not think it is a race related situation.

 

[Jello_B]

Most of them are due to the view that multiculturalism is causing the problems in their lives. But it doesn't make it true.
And it's those building on the fears and convincing people that it's definitely true that are the villains. Especially the ones making a living off it.

The unite the right rally included people who self-identified as members of the KKK.
In July, before the unite the right rally, there was about 30 or 40 who turned up at a KKK rally for about an hour.
There is more, and I can provide links if you'd like?


I think it all stems from an element of truth. Crime rates, poverty, cultural clashes, etc. But then it's turbo-charged with mistruths and embellishments. A clever use of fear and misunderstandings to fuel hate.

The same way the KKK flourished in the 20s.


The great replacement theory is one that is pushed heavily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement#United_States

Shapiro, PJW, Tucker all fuel this fire.
They don't need to be overt in anything they say, because the message is out there already that multiculturalism is replacing Western culture.
Islam is replacing Christianity/Catholicism.
So they just stoke the fire.

All you need to do is plant the seed, and there is a wealth of misinformation available online ready to radicalise people who are genuinely concerned/scared of actual crime, poverty, etc.

Few things motivate us better than fear.
Which is why I think they want to generate so much fear around Antifa.


A really hard one.
First I think it should be looked at as youth crime. It isn't purely a Sudanese issue, even if they do/did make up the majority.
I don't believe these criminal groups would refuse to let other nationalities join them in crime sprees.
Now any black teen committing a crime tends to be labeled Sudanese.
But making it about race it reduces the chance of actually being able to fix the problem.

This is a socioeconomic problem, not just an immigration problem.

I'd like to know what's happening at a community level with the families to resolve this. Is there support or just punishment? Is the punishment sufficient for the crimes? Is there any rehabilitation or just hardening of criminal social circles.
What is the likelihood of re-offending? Why is it so high and how can it be reduced?
What skill based opportunities are available in these areas for youths? What sports etc?
What paths are available for these youths to take, other than wanton violence, theft and destruction of property?
I think these are questions that need to be asked and answered to start finding a solution.

Youth crime isn't a new thing in Australia. It's getting a lot of media attention at the moment.



Now, the easy reply is that the vast majority of teens in Australia might have the same limited access to pathways etc and they don't commit crime. And that's true.
I think there is a problem in specific areas, and once the seed has been planted it spreads very quickly.

But I do not think it is a race related situation.

Thanks for all of this, I’m out for the day but will give due attention later.

 

[awaremind]

You're right. Especially with the media. That was a crazy exaggeration from me.

In terms of social media, comments on news stories, posts on sites like this. Any conversation about right wing extremism nearly always has Antifa brought up.

Very much like right wing extremism being brought up in this thread.

Andy Ngo was punched once and had some eggs thrown at him, and there is a global outcry about the immediate need for action against Antifa.

Right wing extremists have been killing people, and we talk about the need for free speech.
After James Fields drove his car into a crowd, this was followed by too much of the media and social media talking about trump and Antifa.

He was being actively attacked with baseball bats and other clubs when he reversed over some, while he was convicted, the people attacking his vehicle should also own that.

 

[CM86]

He was being actively attacked with baseball bats and other clubs when he reversed over some, while he was convicted, the people attacking his vehicle should also own that.

What do you mean?

 

[awaremind]

What do you mean?

If you are part of a mob attacking someone in their car with weapons, maybe if one of you gets killed when they panic, you should feel some responsibility. Did you not see the footage of the incident?
Edit. Yeah ok my bad, i think the woman was killed in the reversing but the initial ramming may hay have been unprovoked

 

[CM86]

If you are part of a mob attacking someone in their car with weapons, maybe if one of you gets killed when they panic, you should feel some responsibility. Did you not see the footage of the incident?

That's what I thought you meant... but I still don't understand.

You're saying the people reacting to him driving his car into them, should have had more restraint?

You believe he had no intention to get away after driving into them?

He only tried to flee the scene because some people reacted to friends and possibly family being mowed down by him??

Saying they caused him to panic?


He only stopped because he crashed into a car he couldn't see through the crowd of people he ran down...

 

[awaremind]

It did seem like theres some evidence his car had been damaged in the minutes leading up to this event, but obviously no justification for the attack.

 

[Jello_B]

Most of them are due to the view that multiculturalism is causing the problems in their lives. But it doesn't make it true.
And it's those building on the fears and convincing people that it's definitely true that are the villains. Especially the ones making a living off it.

The unite the right rally included people who self-identified as members of the KKK.
In July, before the unite the right rally, there was about 30 or 40 who turned up at a KKK rally for about an hour.
There is more, and I can provide links if you'd like?


I think it all stems from an element of truth. Crime rates, poverty, cultural clashes, etc. But then it's turbo-charged with mistruths and embellishments. A clever use of fear and misunderstandings to fuel hate.

The same way the KKK flourished in the 20s.


The great replacement theory is one that is pushed heavily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement#United_States

Shapiro, PJW, Tucker all fuel this fire.
They don't need to be overt in anything they say, because the message is out there already that multiculturalism is replacing Western culture.
Islam is replacing Christianity/Catholicism.
So they just stoke the fire.

All you need to do is plant the seed, and there is a wealth of misinformation available online ready to radicalise people who are genuinely concerned/scared of actual crime, poverty, etc.

Few things motivate us better than fear.
Which is why I think they want to generate so much fear around Antifa.


A really hard one.
First I think it should be looked at as youth crime. It isn't purely a Sudanese issue, even if they do/did make up the majority.
I don't believe these criminal groups would refuse to let other nationalities join them in crime sprees.
Now any black teen committing a crime tends to be labeled Sudanese.
But making it about race it reduces the chance of actually being able to fix the problem.

This is a socioeconomic problem, not just an immigration problem.

I'd like to know what's happening at a community level with the families to resolve this. Is there support or just punishment? Is the punishment sufficient for the crimes? Is there any rehabilitation or just hardening of criminal social circles.
What is the likelihood of re-offending? Why is it so high and how can it be reduced?
What skill based opportunities are available in these areas for youths? What sports etc?
What paths are available for these youths to take, other than wanton violence, theft and destruction of property?
I think these are questions that need to be asked and answered to start finding a solution.

Youth crime isn't a new thing in Australia. It's getting a lot of media attention at the moment.



Now, the easy reply is that the vast majority of teens in Australia might have the same limited access to pathways etc and they don't commit crime. And that's true.
I think there is a problem in specific areas, and once the seed has been planted it spreads very quickly.

But I do not think it is a race related situation.

Agree on the multi-culturalism comment. Do you think any of it is true. With anything there is always pluses and minuses. Multi-culturalism seems to have happened with little rigour on the consequences. It seems to have been successful though.
Yeah I think the Unite the Right stuff can have horrible people at them. On the whole they just seem so far removed from the majority.
It depends on the terminology of replacement. I’ll focus my post on this point.
I think this term replacement is amplified by each side. There is a replacement of sorts that is happening, organically. Birth rates in western countries is much lower than others. Migration out of lower developed countries into the west is happening.
Traditional white Christians are being replaced in a sense. Replaced as the neighbour, shop attendant etc...
But the term is being thrown around like it’s a genocide or similar which it is not, it’s birth rates and immigration.
It shouldn’t be lost that without immigration in Australia there would have been far lower growth and prosperity for the existing people.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Definition of fascism

A political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocraticgovernment headed by a dictatorialleader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Realistically, doesn't that line up more with what Antifa oppose?

Where do you get the information that they:
1. Don't believe in democracy?
2. They want to run a totalitarian state?
3. They use violence and intimidation to silence any opposition?

Are these verifiable facts that you can fully support with evidence? Or your beliefs held about Antifa?

Actually describes antifa types remarkably well. Maybe take out natuon and race and replace them with something else

 

[TimmeT]

Actually describes antifa types remarkably well. Maybe take out natuon and race and replace them with something else

The race definition is their go to defence. They still get offended when people call them anti racist fascists

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Sorry fellas, you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Most antifa in the US (the violent black bloc) are anarchists. They want no government.

And they don't bash anyone. Have a look at your own descriptions. Some engage in violence at these organised protests, just as PB and patriot prayer types do.

Simply put, the data doesn't support the amount of attention antifa get.

 

[TimmeT]

Sorry fellas, you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Most antifa in the US (the violent black bloc) are anarchists. They want no government.

And they don't bash anyone. Have a look at your own descriptions. Some engage in violence at these organised protests, just as PB and patriot prayer types do.

Simply put, the data doesn't support the amount of attention antifa get.

LOL like this says otherwise.

‘I’m Mexican!’ — Marines ‘bewildered’ after being called ‘Nazis,’ beat up by alleged antifa mob

About a dozen people attacked the two Marines, punching and kicking them, spraying them with mace and calling them "white supremacists."

www.marinecorpstimes.com

Quite funny how you are here defending antifa once again

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

LOL like this says otherwise.

‘I’m Mexican!’ — Marines ‘bewildered’ after being called ‘Nazis,’ beat up by alleged antifa mob

About a dozen people attacked the two Marines, punching and kicking them, spraying them with mace and calling them "white supremacists."

www.marinecorpstimes.com

Quite funny how you are here defending antifa once again

Timme have you noticed how the same 4-5 stories keep coming up?

I've put forth stats that show, on a large scale, antifa violence is a drop in the bucket. We can each post isolated events all night, but evaluated as a macro phenomenon, right wing terrorism poses a legitimate threat to people's lives, and antifa does not.

Those are the stats, and I'd be interested to see if you can argue otherwise.

 

[TimmeT]

Timme have you noticed how the same 4-5 stories keep coming up?

I've put forth stats that show, on a large scale, antifa violence is a drop in the bucket. We can each post isolated events all night, but evaluated as a macro phenomenon, right wing terrorism poses a legitimate threat to people's lives, and antifa does not.

Those are the stats, and I'd be interested to see if you can argue otherwise.

Amazingly and here we go with deflection again from Kidd Vicious. Firstly we have him tell us that Antifa don't attack just anyone and when we demonstrate otherwise we get whataboutism and please don't discuss ANTIFA...

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Amazingly and here we go with deflection again from Kidd Vicious. Firstly we have him tell us that Antifa don't attack anyone and when we demonstrate otherwise we get whataboutism and please don't discuss ANTIFA...

They don't Timme. I pointed out antifa violence only occurs along side proud boy violence at these organised punch ons.

The very article you posted actually confirms this. They assaulted them because they thought they were proud boys. The antifa men who assaulted the 2 men should be in prison.

Im happy with you discussing antifa. Are you able to disprove my contention that they pose a genuine large scale threat to life?

 

[TimmeT]

They don't Timme. I pointed out antifa violence only occurs along side proud boy violence at these organised punch ons.

The very article you posted actually confirms this. They assaulted them because they thought they were proud boys. The antifa men who assaulted the 2 men should be in prison.

Im happy with you discussing antifa. Are you able to disprove my contention that they pose a genuine large scale threat to life?

Seems they bash anyone who they think is a proud boy even if they aren't certain they are

 

[CM86]

Agree on the multi-culturalism comment. Do you think any of it is true. With anything there is always pluses and minuses. Multi-culturalism seems to have happened with little rigour on the consequences. It seems to have been successful though.
Yeah I think the Unite the Right stuff can have horrible people at them. On the whole they just seem so far removed from the majority.
It depends on the terminology of replacement. I’ll focus my post on this point.
I think this term replacement is amplified by each side. There is a replacement of sorts that is happening, organically. Birth rates in western countries is much lower than others. Migration out of lower developed countries into the west is happening.
Traditional white Christians are being replaced in a sense. Replaced as the neighbour, shop attendant etc...
But the term is being thrown around like it’s a genocide or similar which it is not, it’s birth rates and immigration.
It shouldn’t be lost that without immigration in Australia there would have been far lower growth and prosperity for the existing people.

Exactly. There are elements in truth to nearly all of it. It's whats done to it that changes it.
If there wasn't some truth, it wouldn't catch on.

Like every conspiracy theory. They can link to facts and evidence to give the idea of a solid case. But when rigour is applied it always falls short.
There is always something missing or something twisted.
And while based on truth, the outcome is a lie.

And to me it's not like one culture replacing another culture, but an ever evolving culture taking aspects from everywhere. Most good, some bad.

Thanks for engaging, Jello. I'm really enjoying your posts.