Religion The Bible: Literal, figurative, bulldust?

[Gethelred]

To clearly delineate conversation between threads, this thread is for specifically bible talk; if you're debating biblical historicity or lack of it, if you're talking interpretation, this is the thread for you.

Standard board rules apply. Go nuts.

 

[Vdubs]

You keep saying there is ONE god (that even in caps), as if you are shouting. I asked, how would you know this? FIRST you need to establish there is a God(s). This may not be the case. Life maybe is just a simulation. Maybe we are here by accident. Who can tell?

now If there is a god imagine if there are multiverses or parallel universes or different parts of this massive universe, why can't there be different gods for that? or even for different galaxies or solar systems. How can you assert there is one god based on a hunch? that's a massive statement to make. The likelihood of God of religion existing is literally non existent. I told you why above.

I believe it > I know it. No way can I believe or accept we are here by accident. My years of study and knowledge of brains and bodies confirms that.

 

[Vdubs]

Now that's better, you have the right to believe what you wish to. But you are a Christian, if you look at the origins of Christianity, there's nothing in the Bible which supports your assertion. Trinity being the most important concept in the Bible, was mentioned how many times exactly? cause it's a late addition to solve the issue of polytheism. It's humans who invented Trinity.

That was partly flippant, partly truth.

 

[Malifice]

Sorry Mal, I certainly do believe all that, that's what faith is about, and I think I know it. But believing and knowing are not synonymous.

So you believe Jesus was the prophesied Jewish messiah, the literal Son of (the Jewish sun) God (Yahweh) and he died on the cross for humanities 'original sin' to create a 'new covenant' between (the Jewish sun) God (Yawheh) and humanity?

 

[Vdubs]

So you believe Jesus was the prophesied Jewish messiah, the literal Son of (the Jewish sun) God (Yahweh) and he died on the cross for humanities 'original sin' to create a 'new covenant' between (the Jewish sun) God (Yawheh) and humanity?

Of course

 

[Malifice]

Of course

Why Yahweh and not one of the other Jewish Gods (or other Gods, such as Ganesha or Odin)?

And aren't you ignoring the teachings of Mohammed who also communicated with that God (who he called Allah)? Why is he to be ignored?

And how do you know Yawheh is the one true God you feel (as opposed to any of the other Gods)? How does Yahweh communicate that fact to you?

 

[Vdubs]

Why Yahweh and not one of the other Jewish Gods (or other Gods, such as Ganesha or Odin)?

And aren't you ignoring the teachings of Mohammed who also communicated with that God (who he called Allah)? Why is he to be ignored?

And how do you know Yawheh is the one true God you feel (as opposed to any of the other Gods)? How does Yahweh communicate that fact to you?

Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created.....

 

[Roylion]

Not to us who have had our eyes opened and hearts softened.

That you have had your 'eyes opened' and heart softened' is merely a matter of opinion. It's an opinion I don't share.

We see the Bible as God's word for all of us,

I see no reason to suppose the Bible is 'God's word' and you've certainly provided nothing to suggest otherwise

but those who try and read it like a text book, or a history book will be disappointed and continue to criticise it mercilessly

The Old Testament is a mixture of law, history, literature and prophecy of the Hebrew people. The Bible as a whole was an evolving document, written over several hundred years to meet the needs of their religion's followers. It's clearly a man made tome adopted in part from older religions.

The Bible is a great piece of literature. But so are the Iliad and the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Vdubs]

That you have had your 'eyes opened' and heart softened' is merely a matter of opinion. It's an opinion I don't share.


I see no reason to suppose the Bible is 'God's word' and you've certainly provided nothing to suggest otherwise

The Old Testament is a mixture of law, history, literature and prophecy of the Hebrew people. The Bible as a whole was an evolving document, written over several hundred years to meet the needs of their religion's followers. It's clearly a man made tome adopted in part from older religions.

The Bible is a great piece of literature. But so are the Iliad and the Lord of the Rings.

And what do those 2 literary gems purport to be all about?
Great messages about respect for soldiers and family, but NOT the message of the Bible

 

[Roylion]

And what do those 2 literary gems purport to be all about?

Well they're quite famous. Many gods are mentioned in both, amongst them Eru Iluvatar, Manwe, Melkor, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas, Zeus, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite, Poseidon, Ares, Aphrodite, and Apollo.

 

[Total Power]

I believe it > I know it. No way can I believe or accept we are here by accident. My years of study and knowledge of brains and bodies confirms that.

That is clouded by your bias. I asked you multiple questions about evolution to which you never replied to. To me an opinion of someone who doesn't even believe in evolution is pretty pointless, despite tons of evidence around. So much so that even vast majority of the Christians accept evolution as true. The same Christians who called Darwin a devil.

Whether you accept it or not, the likelihood of the god of religion existing is zero. I told you why, above.

 

[Vdubs]

That is clouded by your bias. I asked you multiple questions about evolution to which you never replied to. To me an opinion of someone who doesn't even believe in evolution is pretty pointless, despite tons of evidence around. So much so that even vast majority of the Christians accept evolution as true. The same Christians who called Darwin a devil.

Whether you accept it or not, the likelihood of the god of religion existing is zero. I told you why, above.

As I have said to you countless times, I have never excluded evolution as part of the process. Importantly, there has to be a starting point, and that is God at work. Alternative explanations are as crazy to me as God the Creator is to you.

 

[Total Power]

As I have said to you countless times, I have never excluded evolution as part of the process. Importantly, there has to be a starting point, and that is God at work. Alternative explanations are as crazy to me as God the Creator is to you.

So why does evolution need a middle man when it's explained perfectly well without a middle man? and why does evolution create all these terrible sufferings and imperfections in species? it doesn't need a middle man but you are hell bent in invoking one?

Intelligent design is a theory that no scientist worth their salt takes it seriously, so where's your evidence?

 

[Vdubs]

So why does evolution need a middle man when it's explained perfectly well without a middle man? and why does evolution create all these terrible sufferings and imperfections in species? it doesn't need a middle man but you are hell bent in invoking one?

Intelligent design is a theory that no scientist worth their salt takes it seriously, so where's your evidence?

With respect, Garbage.
I can not accept we start from zilch and evolve into what we are today.
Of course evolutionary processes work, but from what?
What is the very beginning of life, why and how?

 

[Total Power]

With respect, Garbage.

What exactly is garbage? tell me where in the ToE does one need a middle man? provide sources please.

I can not accept we start from zilch and evolve into what we are today.

Of course you cannot, it's your bias. But ToE stands strong WITHOUT a middle man, and this is why so many species die out and rot because evolution means survival of the fittest. 95% OF ALL species that have existed have died out, including neanderthals, who if they existed today would have been smarter than humans.

You are refusing to accept a theory that have stood the test of time and immense skepticism, yet accepting ridiculous ideas like trinity.

Of course evolutionary processes work, but from what?

It has been explained to you multiple times, a common ancestor. The DNA sequencing proves we are all connected one way or the other. If you wish to debate this, goodluck, cause you won't find any scientist on your side except the YEC ones.

What is the very beginning of life, why and how?

That's abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution disproves biblical creation myths and the God of religioin. It doesn’t disprove the existence of God.

 

[Vdubs]

What exactly is garbage? tell me where in the ToE does one need a middle man? provide sources please.



Of course you cannot, it's your bias. But ToE stands strong WITHOUT a middle man, and this is why so many species die out and rot because evolution means survival of the fittest. 95% OF ALL species that have existed have died out, including neanderthals, who if they existed today would have been smarter than humans.

You are refusing to accept a theory that have stood the test of time and immense skepticism, yet accepting ridiculous ideas like trinity.


It has been explained to you multiple times, a common ancestor. The DNA sequencing proves we are all connected one way or the other. If you wish to debate this, goodluck, cause you won't find any scientist on your side except the YEC ones.



That's abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution disproves biblical creation myths and the God of religioin. It doesn’t disprove the existence of God.

Yes, the full circle.
We agree to disagree

 

[Total Power]

Yes, the full circle.
We agree to disagree

Disagree with PROVEN science? All it takes for life as we know to emerge is one self replicating molecule basically. Mutations from that point forward do the rest. A mutation occurs, it's beneficial, that strain will outbreed(definition of beneficial mutation) the rest, rinse and repeat.

You have no substance on your side, only noise. Yet you need no evidence for a talking snake or a zombie. Funny that.

 

[Total Power]

Yes, the full circle.
We agree to disagree

You make a fundamental mistake. Anything with a non-zero probability (even a very very small one) will happen eventually if you wait long enough given the vastness of the universe. It's happening (probably) elsewhere in the universe too.

Many hypothesis for abiogenesis exists, God isn't one of them. God is not even a null hypothesis.

The most probable reason is organic materials from asteroid, which have been discovered. But yes we don't know yet, but it doesn't mean GOD, which you are implying here.

What is the RNA World Hypothesis?​

The RNA World Hypothesis is a concept put forth in the 1960s by Carl Woese, Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel. It proposes that earlier life forms may have used RNA alone for the storage of genetic material.

www.news-medical.net
Here is the list of various ABIOGENESIS models from the wikipedia page:

3 Current models

3.1 Origin of organic molecules
3.1.1 "Soup" theory
3.1.1.1 Reducing atmosphere
3.1.1.2 Monomer formation
3.1.1.3 Monomer accumulation
3.1.1.4 Further transformation
3.1.2 Deep sea vent theory
3.1.3 Fox's experiments
3.1.4 Eigen's hypothesis
3.1.5 Hoffmann's contributions
3.1.6 Wächtershäuser's hypothesis
3.1.7 Zn-World theory
3.1.8 Radioactive beach hypothesis
3.1.9 Ultraviolet and temperature-assisted replication model
3.1.10 Models to explain homochirality
3.1.11 Self-organization and replication
3.2 From organic molecules to protocells
3.2.1 RNA world
3.2.2 "Metabolism first" models
3.2.2.1 Iron-sulfur world
3.2.2.2 Thermosynthesis world
3.2.2.3 Bubbles
3.2.2.4 Pumice rafts

4 Other models

4.1 Autocatalysis
4.2 Clay hypothesis
4.3 Gold's "deep-hot biosphere" model
4.4 "Primitive" extraterrestrial life
4.5 Extraterrestrial organic molecules
4.6 Lipid world
4.7 Polyphosphates
4.8 PAH world hypothesis
4.9 Multiple genesis



Any of them could be right, we DO NOT KNOW. But RNA world looks extremely likely at the moment. But you saying it's not a possibility, is rubbish. There are many possibilites, we just don't know which one is correct...YET.

The real issue is that you think that not understanding something equals "it must have a supernatural cause". This is the classic God of the Gaps fallacy and you should stop doing that.

Science knows it doesn’t know everything, otherwise it’d stop...simply!!

Just because science doesn’t know everything doesn’t mean you get to fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you.

 

[Roylion]

Great messages about respect for soldiers and family, but NOT the message of the Bible

And the message of the Bible is? It's not the Word of God. It's essentially the word of man about the god that was invented.

 

[Vdubs]

And the message of the Bible is? It's not the Word of God. It's essentially the word of man about the god that was invented.

It's great to see you read the Bible so often that you like to discuss it. The fact that it's being scrutinised and discussed is all positive afaiac

 

[Total Power]

It's great to see you read the Bible so often that you like to discuss it. The fact that it's being scrutinised and discussed is all positive afaiac

nah, you guys do not like the scrutiny. All ridiculous claims should be scrutinized. If you would have put 1% of your skepticism towards the Biible as you do towards evolution (which is a proven theory), then we would not discuss any of this today. Remember what the Bible tells you ' do not use your intellect, trust the lord with all your heart'. That is telling and it shows when you type your messages.

 

[Malifice]

Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created.....

Yeah, but there are identical stories in the Jewish holy book, and in the Muslim holy book, and in the Hindu holy book, and in Dianetics (when you reach Operating Thetan level 3).

How do you know the God in that book (the New Testament of the Christian faith) is the same God you feel, and thus that book, is the correct book?

Like maybe its Allah you feel inside you, and the magical works you see around you, are the works of Allah. Or Ganesha. Or Xenu the evil Galactic overlord, and the Thetans. Or Odin. Or Zeus.

Do you agree that if you were born in Iran or Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, you'd be a Muslim and not a Christian?

 

[Malifice]

nah, you guys do not like the scrutiny.

Scrutinize it as much as you want. They'll simply change the rules on how to 'interpret' it.

'Oh, the bit where it says God magically created the world in 7 days? That really means 37 billion years, and he did it via science; you just have to know how to properly interpret the bible...'

 

[Total Power]

Scrutinize it as much as you want. They'll simply change the rules on how to 'interpret' it.

'Oh, the bit where it says God magically created the world in 7 days? That really means 37 billion years, and he did it via science; you just have to know how to properly interpret the bible...'

You are absolutely spot on, everytime i raised moral/ethical/scientific/historical issues with the Bible, they have always come back and called me 'a literalist'. It's Christians who claim that's what "it is", and thus commit special pleading when calling the unfavorable parts metaphors. The ease with which people make their own meanings out of parables because of their very inexact nature is in fact regularly at play in human interactions.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Scrutinize it as much as you want. They'll simply change the rules on how to 'interpret' it.

'Oh, the bit where it says God magically created the world in 7 days? That really means 37 billion years, and he did it via science; you just have to know how to properly interpret the bible...'

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

If there is no light on the earth; how can there be days according to your interpretation of what a day is?

 

[peetoo]

Literalists taking translations between a thousand and 6 thousand years after the actual events or composition as their text to comply with literally