Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[myblueroan]

At no point can anyone who goes for Carlton escape Carlton being sh*t. If at any point you spot Carlton fans enjoying footy, report immediately to HQ and retrieve your personalized and specific BInder.

Your Binder will feature several things:

- a precise breakdown of the common ways to crush the dreams of all Carlton supporters, but for the younger fans the binder will feature non-football related methods such as informing them that their parents had sex, the Easter Bunny and Santa aren't real, and that one day, they personally will definitely die.
- a full and complete dossier on you personally, to best ensure that your own hopes and dreams no longer exist, and if they ever existed the mere reality of Carlton FC will further drive their reality into the grave where they will hopefully remain indefinitely. This will assist you in weaponising your own hopelessness against other people.
- The current in vogue whipping boy, as well as a seven day forecast featuring who it was, who it is today, and who it will be in the immient future. Warning: this forecast can change as frequently as Melbourne's weather, so you would do well to check often this dossier for any changes.
- The full list of the new terms for players who are not only currently not very good at football, but are inadequate as human beings. The old methods - flog, benchwarmer - are not commensurate with our modern, more targeted methods, and you will want to move along with the times.
- the reasons why, if anyone should bite back or otherwise poke holes in what is absolutely a foolproof, logical and otherwise impeccible dossier, it is actually the fault of Sam Petrevsky-Seton (SPS) both in the moment or over time. Even if it is the fault of Stephen Silvagni or someone on the board, it is because he cannot kick beyond seven or even six metres, and is soft.

This Binder comes with an alt account, so if you are banned in the course of delivering your vital - vital! - hope and dream crushing you can simply continue, using Appendix A and B to avoid falling afoul of the rules.

Note: Details of the BInder must not be shared with members of the public.
Note 2: If a copy of the Binder or knowledge of its existence should fall into the wrong hands, catastrophe will ensue.

Goodluck, and may the hopes and dreams of millions be ever ruined under your bootheel!

You didn't really mean that about the Easter Bunny though, did you?

 

[Gethelred]

You didn't really mean that about the Easter Bunny though, did you?

... no comment.

 

[Zuribagger]

Hope our guys are doing what Brisbane are doing to help develop younger players: https://www.afl.com.au/news/635005

 

[thylacine60]

freo at optus next saturday night...........

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

Hope our guys are doing what Brisbane are doing to help develop younger players: https://www.afl.com.au/news/635005

That’s brilliant. Imagine as a 2nd year midfielder having the current Brownlow medal winner and gun midfielder one on one coaching you like that a couple days a week.

 

[Baggers]

Last week on the Sunday Footy Show, they spoke of "embarrassing" incidents they weren't proud of. Maffew Lloyd spoke of his dog act on Brad Sewell, but said it had been spoken about enough and we didn't need to see the video of it again. Instead, he plays video of Juddys chicken wing tackle and says that's something Juddy would be embarrassed about.
Today, it's "controversial" incidents. Lloyd no mention of the snipe on Sewell, and what does he play video of? Juddys chicken wing tackle again.
2 weeks in a row. While his snipe on Sewell was not shown at all.
Really Lloyd? Pathetic.

 

[mediumsizered]

So in 2015 we started our rebuild. Let's look at those who have come through the club since then:

2015
Weitering - Star
McKay - Star
C Curnow - Could be a Star
Cuningham - On borrowed time
JSOS - Hanging in there
Gorringe - Gone
Wright - Was handy, but gone
Lamb - Sicily's nightmare, but also gone
Phillips - Now with the Dopers
Plowman - Polarising, but best 18
Sumner - Gone

2016
SPS - ?
Fisher - Slightly above average
Macreadie - Gone
Polson - Gone
Williamson - One foot out the door
Kerr - Gone
Marchbank - Ongoing injury will cost him
Palmer - Was he ever really there?
Pickett - Gone
Smedts - Gone

2017
Dow - Hanging in there
LOB - One foot out the door
TDK - Will do amazing things
Schumacher - Gone
Jarrod Garlett - Gone
Mullett - Gone, but the hairstyle seems to be back in the AFL
Lang - Gone
Kennedy - Hanging in there

2018
O'Shea - Gone
Walsh - Megastar
Stocker - Jury still out
O'Dwyer - Gone
BSOS - Gone
Fasolo - Gone
McGovern - Hmmm
Newman - Borderline
Setterfield - Hanging in there
Gibbons - Borderline
Cottrell - Jury still out
Owies - Looks good

2019
Kemp - Too early to tell
Philp - Too early to tell
Ramsay - On borrowed time
Pittonet - Honest battler
Martin - Mostly underwhelming
Betts - Thanks for the memories
Newnes - Barely hanging in there
Honey - Promising
Fraser Phillips - Gone

2020
Williams - So far underwhelming
Saad - Up & down
Fogarty - Average
Durdin - Too early to tell
McDonald - Probably not
Carroll - Too early to tell
Parks - Too early to tell
Boyd - Too early to tell
Mirkov - Long term project

I would advise against reading this late at night. It may cause nightmares.

I think I can see our problem.

 

[Stamos]

So in 2015 we started our rebuild. Let's look at those who have come through the club since then:

2015
Weitering - Star
McKay - Star
C Curnow - Could be a Star
Cuningham - On borrowed time
JSOS - Hanging in there
Gorringe - Gone
Wright - Was handy, but gone
Lamb - Sicily's nightmare, but also gone
Phillips - Now with the Dopers
Plowman - Polarising, but best 18
Sumner - Gone

2016
SPS - ?
Fisher - Slightly above average
Macreadie - Gone
Polson - Gone
Williamson - One foot out the door
Kerr - Gone
Marchbank - Ongoing injury will cost him
Palmer - Was he ever really there?
Pickett - Gone
Smedts - Gone

2017
Dow - Hanging in there
LOB - One foot out the door
TDK - Will do amazing things
Schumacher - Gone
Jarrod Garlett - Gone
Mullett - Gone, but the hairstyle seems to be back in the AFL
Lang - Gone
Kennedy - Hanging in there

2018
O'Shea - Gone
Walsh - Megastar
Stocker - Jury still out
O'Dwyer - Gone
BSOS - Gone
Fasolo - Gone
McGovern - Hmmm
Newman - Borderline
Setterfield - Hanging in there
Gibbons - Borderline
Cottrell - Jury still out
Owies - Looks good

2019
Kemp - Too early to tell
Philp - Too early to tell
Ramsay - On borrowed time
Pittonet - Honest battler
Martin - Mostly underwhelming
Betts - Thanks for the memories
Newnes - Barely hanging in there
Honey - Promising
Fraser Phillips - Gone

2020
Williams - So far underwhelming
Saad - Up & down
Fogarty - Average
Durdin - Too early to tell
McDonald - Probably not
Carroll - Too early to tell
Parks - Too early to tell
Boyd - Too early to tell
Mirkov - Long term project

I would advise against reading this late at night. It may cause nightmares.

I think I can see our problem.

The list isn't the problem.

 

[mediumsizered]

The list isn't the problem.

Neither is the coach.

Is the bootstudder any good? How about the property steward?

 

[Stamos]

Neither is the coach.

Is the bootstudder any good? How about the property steward?

The coach is definitely a problem

 

[HarryFlashman]

Some won’t like to see it but I believe Fev back at blues would be huge. He looks way more mature/sensible now and he loves the blues.

Yeah, I like it, every time Fev marked it from 50 out u would smile a little knowing he would slot it. Ridiculously powerful & accurate-more so when the pressure was on and it mattered.
Reckon he would be a able to pass on knowledge in a way the boys would relate to as well, he’s also a pretty good reminder not to screw up

 

[Ash24]

In a year that's been really poor for us in terms of collective on-field wins and performances, I thought I would highlight some individuals who have flourished so far.

1. Walsh - What more needs to be said?

2. Harry - Leading the Coleman, another self explanatory one.

3. Our key backs - Weiters following up last from last year, and Jones having a career best season. Apart from a few dumb plays, they are spoiling and intercepting everything coming their way.

4. Plowman - I was never sceptical of his spot in the side, but I was when he was a late inclusion this week. I didn't want him to turn into another underdone Martin/Fisher, but it was a blessing in disguise. It was clear how much we missed him over the last 3 weeks, and I'm so grateful to have him in our back 7.

5. Cripps - Bounced back from last year, and has dealt with his shoulder reco and back fracture like a champ. Navy blue runs through his veins, and I loved yesterday sitting in the cheersquad and us all yelling #SixMoreYears. He may not be the same 2018-19 Cripps, but I have no doubt he can return to that level soon.

6. Small forwards (the old and the new) - Betts and Owies, and unlikely duo. Both averaging about 1.7 goals this year, while creating chaos and pressure in our forward 50.

7. Our big recruits - It takes time to adjust to a brand new club, system, players and the like. Taking away his price tag, Williams bounced back yesterday and overall just so makes our side so much better. And Saad, is just Saad.

8. Playing players, in their position - Although we haven't seen Dow/Kennedy/SPS become bone fide A grade midfielders, look what happens when we actually play them in the guts! The best bit though, is that they're all adding to exactly what I was calling for last week - more versatility in our midfield! Yesterday, the 3 above (plus Walsh and Ed) all rotated through a wing or flank.

9. Lack of 'passengers' - Apart from a few stinkers over the last 1-2 months, most games this year have had a very even spread of contributors.

10. Fox Footy - Did you know that under Teague, when our games are televised on Ch 7 we have a 5-16 win/loss record? However with Fox Footy, we have a 13-8 record. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Coops93]

Yeah, I like it, every time Fev marked it from 50 out u would smile a little knowing he would slot it. Ridiculously powerful & accurate-more so when the pressure was on and it mattered.
Reckon he would be a able to pass on knowledge in a way the boys would relate to as well, he’s also a pretty good reminder not to screw up

I remember a game against Hawthorn and something about a post...

 

[Gethelred]

As I said some won’t like it. He was one of the best kicks going round.

My concern is, will it be too easy for him to fall to old habits?

I remember hearing stories about Fev. He was always happy to hang around after training to have a kick or sign a jumper, was a great team man, and a good bloke to have a drink with ('til he wasn't). My concern is, could the club rely on him to be professional and stick to his club duties instead of inviting players to come and have a beer after training, get on the punt, etc.

Fev's older, but he's still Fev.

 

[gab213]

My concern is, will it be too easy for him to fall to old habits?

I remember hearing stories about Fev. He was always happy to hang around after training to have a kick or sign a jumper, was a great team man, and a good bloke to have a drink with ('til he wasn't). My concern is, could the club rely on him to be professional and stick to his club duties instead of inviting players to come and have a beer after training, get on the punt, etc.

Fev's older, but he's still Fev.

I'd think the club would be better in actually knowing what is going on and wouldn't turn a blind eye as it did when he was a player.

His personal life appears to be back on track, it might be a good time to welcome him back in some capacity.

 

[katmanblue]

I remember a game against Hawthorn and something about a post...

What where the odds?

 

[Gethelred]

I'd think the club would be better in actually knowing what is going on and wouldn't turn a blind eye as it did when he was a player.

His personal life appears to be back on track, it might be a good time to welcome him back in some capacity.

I think that any club seeking to control or direct culture needs to be very, very careful about who they let in, because once the cat's out of the bag and relationships have begun to form you may as well be pissing into the wind.

 

[gab213]

I think that any club seeking to control or direct culture needs to be very, very careful about who they let in, because once the cat's out of the bag and relationships have begun to form you may as well be pissing into the wind.

I believe we are too concerned about controlling things right down to the smallest thing, we do need to remember that we're still a football club that is made up of many differing personalities.

We should be open to different types and certainly, that includes our past players. We don't own players 100%, you can't control who they develop relationships with, just as much as you can't as a parent. Give them a good grounding so that they will make good choices when they are making their own.

Fev wasn't a murderer. he shouldn't be ostracised for the rest of his life.

You can't shelter players, who are adults, from the realities of the world beyond the cocoon of the football club. Equip them to deal with all different types. rather than wrapping them in cotton wool.

To be honest, IMO. this term 'culture' is used far too liberally. It is a very nebulous concept.

 

[Gethelred]

I believe we are too concerned about controlling things right down to the smallest thing, we do need to remember that we're still a football club that is made up of many differing personalities.

We should be open to different types and certainly, that includes our past players. We don't own players 100%, you can't control who they develop relationships with, just as much as you can't as a parent. Give them a good grounding so that they will make good choices when they are making their own.

Fev wasn't a murderer. he shouldn't be ostracised for the rest of his life.

You can't shelter players, who are adults, from the realities of the world beyond the cocoon of the football club. Equip them to deal with all different types. rather than wrapping them in cotton wool.

To be honest, IMO. this term 'culture' is used far too liberally. It is a very nebulous concept.

In terms of what a person can affect, there's two types of culture, strong or weak, and what they refer to isn't about being accepting or not of standards but resistance to change. A strong culture can resist all kinds of media or external pressure to do what they were going to do anyway, but so too can they stagnate and defend their own positions and their own unwritten hierarchy and ruleset against positive change. The BCCI is an example of strong culture; WC under Worsfold in 2004-06 is an example of strong culture. Rome under Caesar is a strong culture.

Weak culture is too accepting of change, and is too willing to drop everything to appease people. You want to move from a weak culture (while setting the foundations while you can change it) to a strong culture, but only have it becoming strong once you've negotiated the basics of it. The problems begin to form when the culture fails to form (ie, it becomes weak again) or it stagnates and forms along unacceptable lines; ie, it forms a bureaucracy, as we've had at different times at Carlton, in which parts of the unofficial hierarchy (say, one Chris Judd) have more influence/power over the whole than perhaps they should.

Which brings us back to Fev. We're in the process of building our culture; we've the right messages but the wrong messengers or methods, and we've players who've been part of that informal power structures before and know how to make the tail wag the dog. Bringing in Fev risks that hardening step.

Now, this is based off organisation theory, which as far as I'm concerned is barely scientific (it's got aspects that are peer reviewed, aspects which aren't) but it offers useful insight into ways to look at things like this because you're absolutely right that the word 'culture' is too nebulous. Instead of providing various definitions or trying to pin it down, defining it by how open it is to new ideas makes sense to me.

As for the idea that we need to be 'open to different types', I think the idea that any two humans are identical or similar enough to be 'types' is absurd. We have different 'types', what matters is behaviour that is encouraged versus the behaviour that isn't. And going out for a beer and a punt after training isn't behaviour I want encouraged for a playing group that a) hasn't achieved anything and b) looks gassed 10 minutes into the second term.

 

[gab213]

In terms of what a person can affect, there's two types of culture, strong or weak, and what they refer to isn't about being accepting or not of standards but resistance to change. A strong culture can resist all kinds of media or external pressure to do what they were going to do anyway, but so too can they stagnate and defend their own positions and their own unwritten hierarchy and ruleset against positive change. The BCCI is an example of strong culture; WC under Worsfold in 2004-06 is an example of strong culture. Rome under Caesar is a strong culture.

Weak culture is too accepting of change, and is too willing to drop everything to appease people. You want to move from a weak culture (while setting the foundations while you can change it) to a strong culture, but only have it becoming strong once you've negotiated the basics of it. The problems begin to form when the culture fails to form (ie, it becomes weak again) or it stagnates and forms along unacceptable lines; ie, it forms a bureaucracy, as we've had at different times at Carlton, in which parts of the unofficial hierarchy (say, one Chris Judd) have more influence/power over the whole than perhaps they should.

Which brings us back to Fev. We're in the process of building our culture; we've the right messages but the wrong messengers or methods, and we've players who've been part of that informal power structures before and know how to make the tail wag the dog. Bringing in Fev risks that hardening step.

Now, this is based of organisation theory, which as far as I'm concerned is barely scientific (it's got aspects that are peer reviewed, aspects which aren't) but it offers useful insight into ways to look at things like this because you're absolutely right that the word 'culture' is too nebulous. Instead of providing various definitions or trying to pin it down, defining it by how open it is to new ideas makes sense to me.

As for the idea that we need to be 'open to different types', I think the idea that any two humans are identical or similar enough to be 'types' is absurd. We have different 'types', what matters is behaviour that is encouraged versus the behaviour that isn't. And going out for a beer and a punt after training isn't behaviour I want encouraged for a playing group that a) hasn't achieved anything and b) looks gassed 10 minutes into the second term.

My experience in dealing with and managing people in various different settings tells me that there are 'types' when it comes to people. I think you're being absurd if you can't recognise that people can have similar personalities.

Of course, no two people are exactly the same but people have traits in common with others. In any group of people, you have to manage different people in different ways.

Obviously, you set a standard of acceptable behaviours. Nobody is arguing that but don't set people up to fail by placing unrealistic expectations on them.

Where did anybody advocate encouraging the 'behaviours' you are talking about?

You have made this into too complex an issue, it's really not too complicated.

We're a footy club, we'd probably be more successful if we behaved like one.

 

[Gethelred]

Where did anybody advocate encouraging the 'behaviours' you are talking about?

... not sure if serious.

Fev is a recovered alcoholic and gambling addict (and I question the degree to which he's recovered, merely rehabilitated); given the club's history with regards to having a punt (see, Gibbs) that has its origins in his time at Carlton, the culture of the playing group at the time.

If he can keep himself professional off the training track - recognising that he is a coach, not a lad - then I have no issue, but I don't know if he can. That's my objection.

Whether this is a fair judgement is another conversation, but it's a conversation that I'm willing to have in another part of this forum.

You have made this into too complex an issue, it's really not too complicated.

Not really. You stated that culture is too nebulous a concept, so I defined it and made it relevant to what we were talking about.

We're a footy club, we'd probably be more successful if we behaved like one.

... now who's being nebulous.

Do you mean a football club that trains properly? Does the right amount of endurance running versus skills training? Do you mean a community, a place for likeminded people? Do you mean a team that wins? Do you mean a continuous line of succession and narrative from the past through to now, celebrating the highs and commiserating the lows?

If you're referring to going out and having a beer and some fun with a mate or your teammates, I'd be hypocritical to be against it but I'm also not playing AFL, either. I am not subject to skinfold tests (and if I was, I'd fail badly) nor am I equipped with a GPS to measure my running. And I am not expected to run upwards of 12km more than once a week every week.

I can drink what I like, provided it doesn't impact my job or my life; an AFL player doesn't have that luxury.

 

[gab213]

... not sure if serious.

Fev is a recovered alcoholic and gambling addict (and I question the degree to which he's recovered, merely rehabilitated); given the club's history with regards to having a punt (see, Gibbs) that has its origins in his time at Carlton, the culture of the playing group at the time.

If he can keep himself professional off the training track - recognising that he is a coach, not a lad - then I have no issue, but I don't know if he can. That's my objection.

Whether this is a fair judgement is another conversation, but it's a conversation that I'm willing to have in another part of this forum.

Not really. You stated that culture is too nebulous a concept, so I defined it and made it relevant to what we were talking about.


... now who's being nebulous.

Do you mean a football club that trains properly? Does the right amount of endurance running versus skills training? Do you mean a community, a place for likeminded people? Do you mean a team that wins? Do you mean a continuous line of succession and narrative from the past through to now, celebrating the highs and commiserating the lows?

If you're referring to going out and having a beer and some fun with a mate or your teammates, I'd be hypocritical to be against it but I'm also not playing AFL, either. I am not subject to skinfold tests (and if I was, I'd fail badly) nor am I equipped with a GPS to measure my running. And I am not expected to run upwards of 12km more than once a week every week.

I can drink what I like, provided it doesn't impact my job or my life; an AFL player doesn't have that luxury.

A footy club is above all else about people. At the end of the day Fev is one of ours.
You got it right, he;'s a recovering alcoholic,etc. Gibbs is all speculation but I don't know that you can call it a 'club history', it's part of those people's personal journies.

All indications are that Fev has taken responsibility for his actions and has been rebuilding his life starting with getting his family back on track.

I'd be prepared to give him a chance at redemption based on what he's been doing.

Footy clubs help and look after their own, this has nothing to do with current players doing whatever.

You're assuming that Fev will come back and all of a sudden lead the players into trouble like some kind of pied piper. You're assuming a lot about Fev and also our players.


Whether AFL Players should be able to have a drink is a totally different discussion, has nothing to do with the Fev issue.

 

[Gethelred]

A footy club is above all else about people. At the end of the day Fev is one of ours.
You got it right, he;'s a recovering alcoholic,etc. Gibbs is all speculation but I don't know that you can call it a 'club history', it's part of those people's personal journies.

All indications are that Fev has taken responsibility for his actions and has been rebuilding his life starting with getting his family back on track.

I'd be prepared to give him a chance at redemption based on what he's been doing.

Footy clubs help and look after their own, this has nothing to do with current players doing whatever.

You're assuming that Fev will come back and all of a sudden lead the players into trouble like some kind of pied piper. You're assuming a lot about Fev and also our players.


Whether AFL Players should be able to have a drink is a totally different discussion, has nothing to do with the Fev issue.

Redemption's a tricky thing, and I'm not sure it qualifies here. And I think you're being deliberately obtuse by missing what I'm saying.

 

[gab213]

Redemption's a tricky thing, and I'm not sure it qualifies here. And I think you're being deliberately obtuse by missing what I'm saying.

Me not agreeing with how you're seeing things isn't me being obtuse. You're adding layers to a fairly simple thing. There are no guarantees in life, you can't control everything to a point of there being zero risk, people should be given a chance.

I have a broader view of what a football club is than just what happens around the team, even if he was working with the players I think you are hugely over stating any risk.

 

[Gavstar]

Hamill being talked to re: assistant coaching position according to Sam M

Do not want, if he can’t cut it with the aints too bad.

Jeepers