Politics The coming war with China - John Pilger

[igon value]

Eh historically it hasnt always been a hegemony though.

Mostly because projecting force worldwide is fairly new, I imagine.

As rfctiger74 has said, you project as far as you can. Only technology has limited past empires.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Past empire couldn't just print money they needed actual gold/silver to back it up to buy weapons mercenaries and politicians

 

[little graham]

'. Let's put it this way, if the US killed Muslims and sold their organs on to the wealthy elite, which is what the Chinese do to their Uyghur minority, then we'd be talking about equivalent evils.

People in the West would be apoplectic if the US did anything near to that.

I met a girl trying to get this cause going in chinatown. She educated me about the black market for organs and why her people are targeted. They live longer than any other group as result of following a particular mediatation based religion. You literally could feel this bitches heart.

Americans buy those organs.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

I disagree.

A balance of power was when the USSR and USA were ideologically and economically and militarily opposed.

Everyone was terrified, but workers in the USA and the west never had it better, because they were terrified that Communism and Socialism were going to spread to the west.

Likewise it kept American aggression in check. It provided an environment that America couldn't **** with countries like China as they rebuilt, and when they actively did try to meddle in countries like Vietnam and Korea they got their arses kicked.

Having two superpowers (or more!) is infinitely better than having one.

We don't currently have a balance of power, we have America with absolute military power inflicting its will on countries that don't deserve it and killing literally millions of civilians simply to prove it can (and for a tiny percentage of Americans to profit immensely).

They are a pretty sick empire when it comes down to it.

You can't deny that they don't add somewhat of a deterrent. Japan would be terrified if they left, as would South Korea.

Unfortunately, that seems to the be the way of humanity. Find a country that doesn't have a ****ed up history. I'm not an American apologist by any means, but put China or Russia in their place and things wouldn't be much better, likely worse.

I think it probably will end up a region of bipolarity, United States will fade, but won't leave, and China will grow stronger, for now anyway.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Another excellent doco by John Pilger....Here's his Youtube site address for those interested:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcyN-xAU_VN--KWA5ZCZjoQ

 

[VineyIsLORD]

You can't deny that they don't add somewhat of a deterrent. Japan would be terrified if they left, as would South Korea.

Unfortunately, that seems to the be the way of humanity. Find a country that doesn't have a ****ed up history. I'm not an American apologist by any means, but put China or Russia in their place and things wouldn't be much better, likely worse.

I think it probably will end up a region of bipolarity, United States will fade, but won't leave, and China will grow stronger, for now anyway.

Im not convinced Russia would be worse and I am certain the USSR were better.

 

[M Malice]

Another excellent doco by John Pilger....Here's his Youtube site address for those interested:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcyN-xAU_VN--KWA5ZCZjoQ

that little girl around the 15 minute mark made me cry, she wouldn't be much older than my grand daughter.

the glorification of war is a sad indictment on our society, hopefully we grow out of it eventually.

edit- just finished watching, great informative documentary and just so so sad. unfortunately it just confirms what most of us already know ie. power/money corrupts and people of power, wealth and influence will do anything to hold onto it on an individual and nation state level.

oh yer, and the vast majority of main stream media were and are shite.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Im not convinced Russia would be worse and I am certain the USSR were better.

you need to read up more on Stalinist USSR. For what every ideals the Bolshis started with, the compromises on rights Lenin made to secure power established the blueprint for dictatorship, not a socialist nation

 

[VineyIsLORD]

you need to read up more on Stalinist USSR. For what every ideals the Bolshis started with, the compromises on rights Lenin made to secure power established the blueprint for dictatorship, not a socialist nation

Who said they were socialist? USSR was state capitalist but at least they never nuked anyone.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Who said they were socialist? USSR was state capitalist but at least they never nuked anyone.

no, they just performed mass exterminations of dissidents, and of course brutalised the eastern bloc allies

just because you hate the USA doesnt automatically make those who oppose them good

 

[VineyIsLORD]

no, they just performed mass exterminations of dissidents, and of course brutalised the eastern bloc allies

just because you hate the USA doesnt automatically make those who oppose them good

I didnt say they were good. I said they were less bad than the USA.

USA has also brutalised dissidents, USA has also brutalised dissidents in countries half way across the planet.

Theres really nothing that USSR did that the US didnt. But there are a few things the USA have done that the USSR not only didnt, but refysed to do.

Like nukes.

Just because you love the USA doesnt mean they get a free pass for being evil.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I didnt say they were good. I said they were less bad than the USA.

USA has also brutalised dissidents, USA has also brutalised dissidents in countries half way across the planet.

Theres really nothing that USSR did that the US didnt. But there are a few things the USA have done that the USSR not only didnt, but refysed to do.

Like nukes.

Just because you love the USA doesnt mean they get a free pass for being evil.

I actually dont love the USA. I was working with groups opposed to nuclear proliferation and mining in Australia before you were born, so don't get sucked into the linear black/white world people love here.

Conservative tallies have russian deaths during Stalin's time (outside military ones during ww2) at well over 40m. Off mem, some have them as high as 60m

the USA didn't even come close to doing that during the entire cold war

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I actually dont love the USA. I was working with groups opposed to nuclear proliferation and mining in Australia before you were born, so don't get sucked into the linear black/white world people love here.

Conservative tallies have russian deaths during Stalin's time (outside military ones during ww2) at well over 40m. Off mem, some have them as high as 60m

the USA didn't even come close to doing that during the entire cold war

I actually dont hate them.

When i said you loved them i was mocking the way you, in your linear black/white way, assume i hate them. Glad you agree that you were being a bit silly.

Famines happen in Russia.

America has done far worse s**t than cause famines. Cambodia and Vietnam etc.

We only avoided nuclear holocaust because of the USSR.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I actually dont hate them.

When i said you loved them i was mocking the way you, in your linear black/white way, assume i hate them. Glad you agree that you were being a bit silly.

Famines happen in Russia.

America has done far worse s**t than cause famines. Cambodia and Vietnam etc.

famines dont just always happen, those in Russia at the time were engineered to punish

Stalin was a psychopath, who in the end even was hated by his own people (there is a reason he is the only soviet leader not celebrated)

putting his crimes on the same level as those you mention is baffling. you are comparing a guy who shares an alter with Hitler and Mao to the brutality any govt inflicts during war (dont be naive, you cannot wage war without civilian deaths, it has always occurred in every conflict known to man)

 

[VineyIsLORD]

famines dont just always happen, those in Russia at the time were engineered to punish

Stalin was a psychopath, who in the end even was hated by his own people (there is a reason he is the only soviet leader not celebrated)

putting his crimes on the same level as those you mention is baffling. you are comparing a guy who shares an alter with Hitler and Mao to the brutality any govt inflicts during war (dont be naive, you cannot wage war without civilian deaths, it has always occurred in every conflict known to man)

Sorry Mao isnt nearly as bad as the USA. Stalin's USSR is close but marginally better.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Sorry Mao isnt nearly as bad as the USA. Stalin's USSR is close but marginally better.

you really need to read up on the cultural revolution. my mother in law lived through it, and it still scares her today

 

[VineyIsLORD]

you really need to read up on the cultural revolution. my mother in law lived through it, and it still scares her today

Im sure it was terrifying.

Probably not as bad as having a nuke dropped on her though

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Im sure it was terrifying.

Probably not as bad as having a nuke dropped on her though

no, it was worse

for years the country was thrown into chaos. The Red Guard were the fanatical student army of mao, and they made following him and his word the only thing that mattered in china. All puppets of course in what was a war by Mao to gut out any leadership within the CCP and the PRC that had even the potential to oppose Mao (many loyalists were killed "just in case")

if you disagreed with Mao, you were killed. if you disagreed with policy, you were sent to re-education camps. people were "encouraged" to report on each other, so whole families were destroyed as children reported parents, brothers reported sisters.

if you didn't like your boss, you reported them. You didn't like your ex girlfriend, you reported them.

it didn't matter if it was true or not, a few eggs needed to be cracked

Teachers were all but eliminated (educators were seen as untrustworthy), and the only good work was seen as peasant farming or base manual labour. the whole economy ground to a halt, one already crippled by two failed Great Leaps Forward (which cost tens of millions of lives thanks to famine from crop reductions)

now you are probably saying "thats not that bad". Estimates have 1-3 million dying via violent means. This includes executions, maimings (death from mutilation, stoning, etc), and so on. Remember the re-education camps? 15-20 million died in them. Some from violence, some from starvation, some from over work

Then we get to the people. Remember the economy was rooted? Well the people starved, again. Another 10-20 million gone

Not a nuclear bomb, but responsible for 100 times as many more deaths. there is a reason chinese still do this day dont talk about this period.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I know what it is. And that kind of thing has been funded and perpetrated by the US as well as many other countries throughout history.

It isnt a point of difference.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I know what it is. And that kind of thing has been funded and perpetrated by the US as well as many other countries throughout history.

It isnt a point of difference.

where has the US eliminated 40m citizens of any country? they havent even killed 40m soliders

 

[Ocha905]

Famines happen in Russia.

I'd argue the famine of 1932-3 or the Holodomor as its commonly referred as was more malevolent than you give credit for.

famines dont just always happen, those in Russia at the time were engineered to punish

Stalin was a psychopath, who in the end even was hated by his own people (there is a reason he is the only soviet leader not celebrated)

Stalin has had a bit of a PR rivival in recent year in Russia it seems as he was voted the third greatest Russian of all time in 2008 on the 'Name of Russia' TV program.

But I digress, America has a lot to answer for and I appreciate these sources of information and opinions.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I'd argue the famine of 1932-3 or the Holodomor as its commonly referred as was more malevolent than you give credit for.

Stalin has had a bit of a PR rivival in recent year in Russia it seems as he was voted the third greatest Russian of all time in 2008 on the 'Name of Russia' TV program.

But I digress, America has a lot to answer for and I appreciate these sources of information and opinions.

100% agree with all of this. America has a lot to answer for, but to say it causes genocides like these mad freaks is wrong.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Hows about we agree that U.S foreign policy/C.I.A shenanigans post WW2, is = to, but not < than, Stalin Domestic policy.....Lets call it a 0-0 draw.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

where has the US eliminated 40m citizens of any country? they havent even killed 40m soliders

One single country? Probably hasnt because theres only two countries that could lose that many.

But they have killed at least that cumulatively since ww2. Easily.

And remember you are including Maos donestic policy *ups that led to famine as a death that he is rwsponsible for. Which is fine.

But by the same token the shitty economic policy of the USA that leaves millions without healthcare costs lives also. So you need to include those too.

What America just did to Libya is far worse that what Mao did in China. Hell Maos famine isnt even the worst famine in Chinese history. And the cultural revolution isnt the bloodiest part of Chinese history either.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

100% agree with all of this. America has a lot to answer for, but to say it causes genocides like these mad freaks is wrong.

It absolutely has caused ethnic cleansing and massacres. It is absolutely correct to point that out. They funded the Khmer Rouge ffs.

Also what happened in China under Mao was absolutely not genocide.