The off topic thread 4.0

[Gak Attack]

I’m all for piling on this current government and they could/should be doing better, but any adult here has to take personal responsibility for their actions now. Everyone knows how serious this is and what they shouldn’t be doing, and those doing the wrong thing shouldn’t get away with hiding behind ‘ScoMo wasn’t clear enough’.

The shutdown of retail isn’t as clear cut as people make out either. If it was just for 2-4 weeks then it would be a pretty straightforward decision. The problem is we’re told anything that is closed will be closed for a minimum of 6 months. That makes it very complicated. People will have fridges/freezers that stop working or beds that have to be replaced, and suddenly places like Harvey Norman etc. become an essential services. Children in particular will need new clothes, suddenly best and less etc. become an essential service. It’s a spiral that occurs across a variety of products.

Basically the longer we’re told this will be an issue and places will be closed, the wider the classification of ‘essential services’ becomes.

I have a mate who is a Manager at Bunnings at apparently they will go to online ordering with delivery/arranged pick up. Not sure if that's just them preparing or perhaps major retail has been told to be prepared so they're ready. I don't think you could give warning for retail due to the rush of panic buying.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

I’m all for piling on this current government and they could/should be doing better, but any adult here has to take personal responsibility for their actions now. Everyone knows how serious this is and what they shouldn’t be doing, and those doing the wrong thing shouldn’t get away with hiding behind ‘ScoMo wasn’t clear enough’.

The shutdown of retail isn’t as clear cut as people make out either. If it was just for 2-4 weeks then it would be a pretty straightforward decision. The problem is we’re told anything that is closed will be closed for a minimum of 6 months. That makes it very complicated. People will have fridges/freezers that stop working or beds that have to be replaced, and suddenly places like Harvey Norman etc. become an essential services. Children in particular will need new clothes, suddenly best and less etc. become an essential service. It’s a spiral that occurs across a variety of products.

Basically the longer we’re told this will be an issue and places will be closed, the wider the classification of ‘essential services’ becomes.

They won’t order a shutdown for 6 months as you’re probably aware. It might eventually be for that length of time but they’ll play it month by month. The issues you list will start being a factor after 2-3 months of closure you’d imagine and you’d hope some measures would be put in place to try and combat it. No easy solutions though obviously

 

[SM]

They won’t order a shutdown for 6 months as you’re probably aware. It might eventually be for that length of time but they’ll play it month by month. The issues you list will start being a factor after 2-3 months of closure you’d imagine and you’d hope some measures would be put in place to try and combat it. No easy solutions though obviously

We've been told that whatever happens will last six months because we're heading into winter while you guys are heading into summer.

 

[Loonerty]

We've been told that whatever happens will last six months because we're heading into winter while you guys are heading into summer.

Morrison did say "expect it to last six months" and not that it would be six months but I think it might end up being more.

 

[glenferry23]

India going into full lockdown. Wow. Meanwhile, it’s surely a matter of time before our idiotic leaders do the same.

 

[SM]

Morrison did say "expect it to last six months" and not that it would be six months but I think it might end up being more.

I thought he'd used more definitive language, particularly when it came to schools.

 

[Kompany]

Why is this not surprising?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gests-elderly-willing-die-economy/2905990001/

“No one reached out to me and said, ‘as a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?’” Patrick said. “And if that’s the exchange, I’m all in.”

 

[Loonerty]

I thought he'd used more definitive language, particularly when it came to schools.

I think initially he did but recently he's been saying "expect that it could be six months".

Why is this not surprising?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gests-elderly-willing-die-economy/2905990001/

Saw this yesterday. Messed up when people are less important than money.

 

[SM]

I think initially he did but recently he's been saying "expect that it could be six months".

Saw this yesterday. Messed up when people are less important than money.

While I agree that people's lives shouldn't be secondary, the economy isn't just 'money', it's people's livelihood's and in many isntances, a way of life.

Look at a (less important) example of sporting leagues and the permanent damage this will do to them. Then consider people's generational businesses that they've built up, think of small towns that will be absolutely destroyed by this.

There's a lot of long lasting, societal damage that this will do.

 

[jd2010]

A communist style living wage for all during a lockdown with all mortgages/rents frozen, all utilities frozen is starting to look like the fairest solution.

Only the absolute essentials jobs would remain employed; anyone in the health sector, supermarkets, police, ambulance, firefighters, army and any logistics workers to keep the above well resourced. The rest of us would just be stood down and on a living wage with no major bills to pay bar food to eat which would be fine. No company would need to actually make anybody unemployed as their own major bills (rent/utilities) would not need to be paid.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

A communist style living wage for all during a lockdown with all mortgages/rents frozen, all utilities frozen is starting to look like the fairest solution.

Only the absolute essentials jobs would remain employed; anyone in the health sector, supermarkets, police, ambulance, firefighters, army and any logistics workers to keep the above well resourced. The rest of us would just be stood down and on a living wage with no major bills to pay bar food to eat which would be fine. No company would need to actually make anybody unemployed as their own major bills (rent/utilities) would not need to be paid.

I posted something similar earlier. If it wrecks the economy as has been predicted in some quarters then it may have to happen or we’ll enter another Great Depression which ironically also happened in the 20’s, the 1920’s. Millions men out of work, hundreds of thousands evicted from their homes, food shortages, the list goes on. Obviously hopefully it doesn’t come to that but the signs are looking slightly ominous. And I tell you some of these capitalists have acted appallingly. Richard Branson who was thought of as one of the good guys has turned out to be an uber campaigner. It just makes you question the whole capitalist mentality that I’ve never really questioned before. We need to look after our people better after this is all through. The UK could end up under socialism after all.

 

[jd2010]

I posted something similar earlier. If it wrecks the economy as has been predicted in some quarters then it may have to happen or we’ll enter another Great Depression which ironically also happened in the 20’s, the 1920’s. Millions men out of work, hundreds of thousands evicted from their homes, food shortages, the list goes on. Obviously hopefully it doesn’t come to that but the signs are looking slightly ominous. And I tell you some of these capitalists have acted appallingly. Richard Branson who was thought of as one of the good guys has turned out to be an uber campaigner. It just makes you question the whole capitalist mentality that I’ve never really questioned before. We need to look after our people better after this is all through. The UK could end up under socialism after all.

I dont think there's any scenario that doesnt have a ****ed economy to be honest so why not protect/help other humans rather than lessen a ****ed monetary result

 

[WealstoneRaider]

Would be interested to get Bojan KantKick take on this as I know he’s a staunch capitalist...

 

[Loonerty]

While I agree that people's lives shouldn't be secondary, the economy isn't just 'money', it's people's livelihood's and in many isntances, a way of life.

Look at a (less important) example of sporting leagues and the permanent damage this will do to them. Then consider people's generational businesses that they've built up, think of small towns that will be absolutely destroyed by this.

There's a lot of long lasting, societal damage that this will do.

Maybe I didn't phrase it right. I agree that that is the case, I think it's s**t that it is the case.
Our priority IMO should always be protection of people. But if we're at a point where we accept deaths to protect the economy, the system is broken (and has been for a long time).

I posted something similar earlier. If it wrecks the economy as has been predicted in some quarters then it may have to happen or we’ll enter another Great Depression which ironically also happened in the 20’s, the 1920’s. Millions men out of work, hundreds of thousands evicted from their homes, food shortages, the list goes on. Obviously hopefully it doesn’t come to that but the signs are looking slightly ominous. And I tell you some of these capitalists have acted appallingly. Richard Branson who was thought of as one of the good guys has turned out to be an uber campaigner. It just makes you question the whole capitalist mentality that I’ve never really questioned before. We need to look after our people better after this is all through. The UK could end up under socialism after all.

I am way lefter than you WR, I don't think we need or should go full socialism because greed eventually wins out and makes everything worse. But we should have a hybrid.

Universal basic income is a good start, even if it's only used in emergencies like this.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

Maybe I didn't phrase it right. I agree that that is the case, I think it's s**t that it is the case.
Our priority IMO should always be protection of people. But if we're at a point where we accept deaths to protect the economy, the system is broken (and has been for a long time).

I am way lefter than you WR, I don't think we need or should go full socialism because greed eventually wins out and makes everything worse. But we should have a hybrid.

Universal basic income is a good start, even if it's only used in emergencies like this.

Although I said I’ve never properly questioned capitalism before, the truth is it has been weighing on my mind in recent years. I believe the wealth disparity has become far too wide. This Coronavirus has opened my eyes as to how low paid so many workers are who provide critical services are - services that are literally keeping us afloat right now. While on the other hand you have the bankers and brokers who get paid millions for doing what exactly? We need a fairer system is how I’m starting to see it. I don’t advocate full blown socialism but as I said we need a more balanced society. Capitalism although it does have merits, it seems to promote greed and selfishness as primary traits in so many. Branson, Tim Martin, Mike Ashley and I’m sure many of your own multi millionaires operating in Australia have done * all to help during this crisis. In fact the names I’ve mentioned have tried to exploit it. How can you fully endorse a system that breeds that thinking?

 

[Loonerty]

Although I said I’ve never properly questioned capitalism before, the truth is it has been weighing on my mind in recent years. I believe the wealth disparity has become far too wide. This Coronavirus has opened my eyes as to how low paid so many workers are who provide critical services are - services that are literally keeping us afloat right now. While on the other hand you have the bankers and brokers who get paid millions for doing what exactly? We need a fairer system is how I’m starting to see it. I don’t advocate full blown socialism but as I said we need a more balanced society. Capitalism although it does have merits, it seems to promote greed and selfishness as primary traits in so many. Branson, Tim Martin, Mike Ashley and I’m sure many of your own multi millionaires operating in Australia have done fu** all to help during this crisis. In fact the names I’ve mentioned have tried to exploit it. How can you fully endorse a system that breeds that thinking?

 

[jd2010]

 

[99 Problems]

Maybe I didn't phrase it right. I agree that that is the case, I think it's s**t that it is the case.
Our priority IMO should always be protection of people. But if we're at a point where we accept deaths to protect the economy, the system is broken (and has been for a long time).

I am way lefter than you WR, I don't think we need or should go full socialism because greed eventually wins out and makes everything worse. But we should have a hybrid.

Universal basic income is a good start, even if it's only used in emergencies like this.

I agree with you on a personal, ethical and theoretical level on the value of human life, but on a practical level I don’t think it’s ever been or ever will be put above all else. If it was we’d never pay a cent for healthcare and it would always be accessible.

I do have sympathy for governments around the world, because they’re quite aware the world will go back to the way it was as soon as possible once we get through this. That puts them in the awful position of trying to save as many people as possible, whilst keeping the economy and society in the best possible position to remain/return to normal once this is done.

One thing I know for sure in Australia is that the federal and state governments will get hammered by the media and public coming out the other side of this. If we get out of this relatively unscathed (thankfully still in single figures of deaths) they will be blasted for overreacting and destroying the economy, which is what I’d certainly prefer the outcome to be. The flip side is if it does get ugly here they will be hammered for not acting tough enough and locking everything down earlier.

 

[Kompany]

I don’t advocate full blown socialism but as I said we need a more balanced society.

I'm speaking for myself here but I'm convinced most of us who get called commies or lefties by people such as your previous self aren't in favour of full blown socialism. I think a free market with government intervention to protect certain groups is much more desirable than pure capitalism.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

I'm speaking for myself here but I'm convinced most of us who get called commies or lefties by people such as your previous self aren't in favour of full blown socialism. I think a free market with government intervention to protect certain groups is much more desirable than pure capitalism.

Yes that’s how I’m starting to see it.

In fairness before all this crap hit I was advocating for Boris to back the voters in the north who had basically put him in No 10. That would have meant ploughing money into more deprived areas of the country ahead of London and the South East.

But yes government subsidies for the low paid needs to be looked at. I understand wages for care workers has to be low otherwise care for the elderly would skyrocket, and it’s already bloody expensive. But that’s one area that can have gov subsidies because those people are criminally underpaid for the work they do. Teachers, nurses and many other professions are also underpaid in relation to the importance of the jobs they do.

Striking the balance is always going to be the challenge though. You have also got to reward and encourage entrepreneurs because they are wealth creators for the country. And the finance sector is Britain’s biggest but for most advocates of socialism it is the sector that they want reigned in the most

 

[glenferry23]

 

[Cruyff14]

This is all so depressing to read. I just wish we could flatten the curve and see cases decrease.

 

[jd2010]

First round of sackings at my work have begun.

Unnecessary when they could have been stood down for 3 months and given the option to resign if somehow they found something else. I guess the bottom line will look a bit better not having to pay them out the week's annual leave they'd accumulate during a stand down

 

[99 Problems]

This is all so depressing to read. I just wish we could flatten the curve and see cases decrease.

Will likely see a pretty sharp rise the next 7 days from the idiots at the beach/pubs etc. from last weekend. Our hope is to see the curve flatten out from there.

One positive we have is that our testing levels per population is much higher than most parts of the world. That gives us a reasonable chance of avoiding the out of control spikes that Italy/Spain/US have had.

 

[ADL9798]

I think initially he did but recently he's been saying "expect that it could be six months".

Saw this yesterday. Messed up when people are less important than money.

We may not realise it, but we and the governments we elect to represent us make decisions on the monetary value of human life every day. The health system has a finite budget and is constantly making decisions around rationing of services to achieve maximum utility and equity.

At some point, the cost of a health service outweighs the ROI. In this instance the burden of anticipated deaths and severe illness is so great that this threshold is very high for the response to Covid, but nonetheless a threshold still exists, whether people are consciously aware of it or not.