Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 3: Try Hard with a Kengeance

[bomberclifford]

Personally I think someone that ensures the health and well being of human beings just as valuable as someone who unclogs a toilet.

1. Nurses are more numerous than plumbers. (assumption on my behalf but I'd say it's accurate enough)
2. A self-employed plumber only gets paid what the market dictates. If he charges too much, he won't work as much.
3. Nurses get paid according to a collective wage agreement.

and finally... what evidence do you have that a nurse gets paid less than a plumber?

Source: my sister in law is a RN and while she works very shitty jobs (literally) and long hours, she gets paid very well for it and has the added flexibility of picking and choosing the shifts that she wants to work.

 

[edgie]

I debate that no one wants to crawl around in a hot roof for tradie wages.

I do it for nothing because I can't afford to pay a tradie, I'd gladly receive a bit of dosh for it.

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[ScooterBrother]

Nurses are paid out of the public health system, plumbers are not and can set their own wages or work for a private business that abides by award rates.

Bit different.

I wasn't questioning the value of the work but rather the incredibly different structures.

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And it's a valid point.

To enact a 3 year old - but why? Why is it that seemingly when the industry is dominated by women, then structures result in lower pay?

 

[ScooterBrother]

1. Nurses are more numerous than plumbers. (assumption on my behalf but I'd say it's accurate enough)
2. A self-employed plumber only gets paid what the market dictates. If he charges too much, he won't work as much.
3. Nurses get paid according to a collective wage agreement.

and finally... what evidence do you have that a nurse gets paid less than a plumber?

Source: my sister in law is a RN and while she works very shitty jobs (literally) and long hours, she gets paid very well for it and has the added flexibility of picking and choosing the shifts that she wants to work.

So you're saying...the market forces dictate that the mans job is more valuable than the womans.

Yeah I agree.

Nurses V Plumbers was one example, perhaps a bad one.

 

[bomberclifford]

So you're saying...the market forces dictate that the mans job is more valuable than the womans.

Yeah I agree.

Nurses V Plumbers was one example, perhaps a bad one.

No, market forces tend to mean that some Plumbers are paid more than some Nurses. Market forces don't 'see' gender.

 

[Portia]

No, market forces tend to mean that some Plumbers are paid more than some Nurses. Market forces don't 'see' gender.

Sexism is a market force

 

[Malibu#27]

Interesting. Aecom have announced a pay equality strategy which identifies Women that have been underpaid and ... pays them more:

http://www.aecom.com/au/employer-of-choice-gender-equality/

"For the second year in a row AECOM has allocated half a million dollars to close the pay gap, identifying those women who are underpaid and proactively topping-up their pay to match that of their male peers"

My better half works for AECOM, will be interesting to hear her thoughts as she generally is of the belief pay and recognition should be based on performance.

 

[LukeSA]

And just like that my car is dead again, it started so well this morning and now its the ****ing same, cranks but no fire, it's starting to piss me right the **** off.

 

[Forzaport]

So you're saying...the market forces dictate that the mans job is more valuable than the womans.

Yeah I agree.

Nurses V Plumbers was one example, perhaps a bad one.

A self employed female plumber would make a mint. No doubt about it.

 

[ScooterBrother]

My better half works for AECOM, will be interesting to hear her thoughts as she generally is of the belief pay and recognition should be based on performance.

And I would agree with her.

The problem lies when a women performs its not considered as good as when a man performs.

Used to work in an Engineering firm myself, learnt very quickly that qualified female Engineers were awesome to include in pricing structures for tenders as their hourly rate (reflective of pay in most circumstances) was less vs the equivalent skills for a bloke.

They could produce exactly the same work for $10 less an hour.

You'd think that would make them more competitive, yet in that organisation, they rarely got promoted.

 

[ScooterBrother]

A self employed female plumber would make a mint. No doubt about it.

Probably. And a bloke in child care would make eff all.

But it goes much deeper than the surface level type thinking of comparing genitals on one group of employees vs the genitals of another.

It's subtle, systemic and hard to quantify. It's almost at the sub-conscious level actually.

 

[ScooterBrother]

Market forces don't 'see' gender.

Tell that to a woman taking her car to a mechanic.

 

[Malibu#27]

Used to work in an Engineering firm myself, learnt very quickly that qualified female Engineers were awesome to include in pricing structures for tenders as their hourly rate (reflective of pay in most circumstances) was less vs the equivalent skills for a bloke.

They could produce exactly the same work for $10 less an hour.

You'd think that would make them more competitive, yet in that organisation, they rarely got promoted.

I work in an engineering firm too, my major observation is that incompetence is not gender specific.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Now this is christmas.

 

[Magpiespower]

And just like that my car is dead again, it started so well this morning and now its the ******* same, cranks but no fire, it's starting to piss me right the **** off.

Shouldn't laugh. But lol. Lol'ing coz I'm about ready to go postal, too.

AGL just cut my power. Because admin ****-up. But they assure me they can get it back on tonight for a "same day" service fee, lol.

Nah, I'm not giving you campaigners an extra cent. Not one. You can turn that shit on tomorrow.

Now, which movie I don't wanna see should I see tonight...

 

[bomberclifford]

Tell that to a woman taking her car to a mechanic.

That's not a market force, that's a specific example of an individual taking advantage of another individual.

 

[Steve Dore]

..... Women (and Men) are conditioned from very early on about what roles are appropriate. ......

I didn't even bother reading this article;



Mrs Wharfie says that when she finished school she basically had three choices at the "higher end" of women's employment, become a teacher, become a bank teller or become a nurse.

 

[Steve Dore]

Tell that to a woman taking her car to a mechanic.

I take my cars to a mechanic

 

[Doctor Feel]

Kelli Underwood to commentate AFLW.

Surely there was better female talent out there...she's rubbish lets be honest.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Kelli Underwood to commentate AFLW.

Surely there was better female talent out there...she's rubbish lets be honest.

Name a female broadcaster who has called lots of games at AFL level or even state league level games? I think you will struggle, and that's why she is an obvious choice. Will she call 7's Saturday night game or will she be working for Foxtel who get 3 games a week so she will probably call 2 of them??

 

[chiwigi]

Yes. It is. Download the ABS data if you like. The oft quoted ~70c in the dollar in the US. It's less here, about 17.2%. It is mathematics and is inarguable. Over simplified, agreed, but inarguable.

Men everywhere instantly dismiss the gender pay gap concept with reasonably shallow analysis along the lines of:

"its because they choose to be a child care worker rather than an Engineer!"

mixed in with

"men work more hours! compare equal time to pay, not overall"

and in turn completely miss the point. Which is:

Why do these choices occur, how do they impact pay, and why does society reward "Male" choices over "Female" choices? Why does a Nurse not get paid as much as a Plumber? Why do Men have much more success when negotiating pay rises and contracts? Why does a father not spend as much time at home as a mother when a couple has a baby? Why do Men work longer hours?

I saw a study recently (which for the life of me I cant find) which broke down the gap into smaller parts. Much of it was choice of occupation, much of it was simply "unexplained" but the really interesting part was:

As women started to make inroads into the occupations that were traditionally male dominated and high paying, the mean pay for all went down.

And therein lies the crux of it all:

We do not value work as highly if it is done by a woman. That's the real cause of the pay gap.

So it isn't about same work same pay then, it's about the market deciding a plumber is worth more than a nurse.
A father spends less time at home for a number of reasons. One of them is fewer rights than the mother.
When women make 'inroads' into an industry the supply increases, demand goes down as do wages.
You can't show me the definitive study because it doesn't exist, if the maths were so straightforward it would.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Name a female broadcaster who has called lots of games at AFL level or even state league level games? I think you will struggle, and that's why she is an obvious choice. Will she call 7's Saturday night game or will she be working for Foxtel who get 3 games a week so she will probably call 2 of them??

Fresh talent is not a bad option, you don't always have to go for the most experienced just because. there is plenty of proessional female taters' we could pinch and train up. it's about the future.

 

[LukeSA]

Name a female broadcaster who has called lots of games at AFL level or even state league level games? I think you will struggle, and that's why she is an obvious choice. Will she call 7's Saturday night game or will she be working for Foxtel who get 3 games a week so she will probably call 2 of them??

Wasn't there a woman who used to call the AFL for Channel 10 back when they had it?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Fresh talent is not a bad option, you don't always have to go for the most experienced just because. there is plenty of proessional female taters' we could pinch and train up. it's about the future.

Answer the question I asked - who else ie female, has regularly called AFL games or at state league level?? If you are going to start something new like this, but has a big male version, you are going to go for someone with experience to be the face/voice of the broadcast. You train someone else up in future years.

Look when Fox Footy Channel started in 2002, they went for Clinton Grybus who was a radio man, had plenty of experience calling the game, but almost none on TV. They made him the face of FFC, yes he was young and dynamic, and very talented, and new to most people outside Victoria, but he was an experienced broadcaster on another medium. RIP Clinton, you are still missed.

 

[ScooterBrother]

So it isn't about same work same pay then, it's about the market deciding a plumber is worth more than a nurse.

In a roundabout way yes, but the point is that the "market" produces a structural and social advantage that ensures men get paid more.

A father spends less time at home for a number of reasons. One of them is fewer rights than the mother.

Correct. This influences what each gender gets paid. Naturally, and over time, having babies results in women spending less time in the workforce.

For example - how about we introduce balanced paternity leave, so that the woman gets the first 6 months paid (for obvious reasons) and the male gets the next 6 months. With a month overlap. Start to correct custody battles as well.

Men get in a panic, but once you work it all out, pay equality advantages males too.

This is actually big one, evening out Paternity leave would go a long, long way to evening out the pay gap.

When women make 'inroads' into an industry the supply increases, demand goes down as do wages.

No, the overall numbers were roughly the same. It was just that the percentages started to creep towards females. The pay decreased at a similar rate

You can't show me the definitive study because it doesn't exist, if the maths were so straightforward it would.

Gahhh I will find it.