The thread about the Environment

[telsor]

I'm no expert but I'm saying what was said on Radio National some little while ago & just Googled the topic, a news report says Chinas energy use in 2013 comprised 67% coal, the next 5year plan is to reduce it to 60% & replace that amount with Russian Gas. The just signed some massive deal.

Anyway you guys can discuss that.

So yes, coal is big, but wont grow, if anything, it will shrink. They are choking on the fumes.

Relatively, it might be shrinking, but as an absolute value it's still growing because China's energy usage is growing rapidly. (if energy growth is 10% and coal power only grows 5%, relatively it's shrunk)

Reducing the fumes is happening, but more by replacing older plants with newer, more efficient/cleaner plants (not so much less CO2 as less grit/particulates).

 

[telsor]

You need to update your view of environmentalists.

So you're in favor of nuclear energy?

 

[madmug]

Relatively, it might be shrinking, but as an absolute value it's still growing because China's energy usage is growing rapidly. (if energy growth is 10% and coal power only grows 5%, relatively it's shrunk)

Reducing the fumes is happening, but more by replacing older plants with newer, more efficient/cleaner plants (not so much less CO2 as less grit/particulates).

Yes understood. But they will have more efficient plants. They will not waste as much energy. The recent import duty has already put a break on our coal industry.

Where is the bright future for our coal?

 

[telsor]

Yes understood. But they will have more efficient plants. They will not waste as much energy. The recent import duty has already put a break on our coal industry.

Where is the bright future for our coal?

The import duty was a protectionist move because their coal mines were too expensive.

More coal is being used every year, and that growth will continue for probably a decade or more because there aren't really a lot of alternatives.

 

[alchemy333]

It's a typical piece of Abbott moronity, coal is the power source of the future in the same way that Beta was the future of video recording in 1981. The man's a dangerous idiot.

Or he's doing his damn best to sell a commodity that pours billions into the economy and keeps Australian's in jobs...

 

[Gough]

What do we do when nobody wants our coal because it's dirty fuel and our renewable energy industry has been murdered by this government? I stand by what I said, he's a dangerous idiot.

 

[swingdog]

So you're in favor of nuclear energy?

I'm in favour of GM's research.

 

[madmug]

The import duty was a protectionist move because their coal mines were too expensive.

More coal is being used every year, and that growth will continue for probably a decade or more because there aren't really a lot of alternatives.

My reading of it is that they are desperate to reduce their massive pollution problems. They are stuck between that & the economic imperative. Their massive gas deal with Vlad, massive push into wind power & new power stations are all about using less coal & using it more efficiently. Which ever way they go, our coal industry is suddenly under pressure. The lower $A may help a bit.

I was speaking to a guy who works for a labor management group. He does some work employment/recruiting for some Coal group. He said they are slashing jobs by the hundreds right now. They wont close because that has significant costs. A lot will be on maintenance shifts only. Things have become very tight, very quickly.

Anyway, we cannot just go back & rely on a dig it up or sheer it economy again. We must have a strategic plan. We havent, except for the dirty industries.

We've lost our low skill type jobs so must support more of our key manufacturing industries, like Germany & the USA do. Otherwise its the banana republic all over again.

 

[telsor]

My reading of it is that they are desperate to reduce their massive pollution problems. They are stuck between that & the economic imperative. Their massive gas deal with Vlad, massive push into wind power & new power stations are all about using less coal & using it more efficiently. Which ever way they go, our coal industry is suddenly under pressure. The lower $A may help a bit.

I was speaking to a guy who works for a labor management group. He does some work employment/recruiting for some Coal group. He said they are slashing jobs by the hundreds right now. They wont close because that has significant costs. A lot will be on maintenance shifts only. Things have become very tight, very quickly.

Anyway, we cannot just go back & rely on a dig it up or sheer it economy again. We must have a strategic plan. We havent, except for the dirty industries.

We've lost our low skill type jobs so must support more of our key manufacturing industries, like Germany & the USA do. Otherwise its the banana republic all over again.

Well, we're not doing high skill jobs like IT, because they've all gone to India.

 

[smokingjacket]

Sorry, can't use that, it has the N word.

You need to update your view of environmentalists.

Nah, it's much easier to throw everyone into the greenie/loon basket.

The thing is, you don't even need to be updated telsor you're just plain wrong. There's a huge number of environmentalists who've been campaigning FOR the use of nuclear power to roll back the effects of pollution and climate from before you would have even heard of the concept.

These people range all the way between your moderate environmentalists, trying to work with the most practical solution to the fairly extreme like James Lovelock who came up with the Gaia hypothesis of the world being a single living organism with tipping points in the 70's. Since that time, at various stages he's said that most of us are going to die this century, but he's always maintained that nuclear power was the only viable option for the UK. Now he might be a bit of a loon but he's deep green and very much in favour of nuclear power.

We're usually courteous enough to distinguish between the politics of Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott so you can open your ears too.

 

[madmug]

Well, we're not doing high skill jobs like IT, because they've all gone to India.

Well that just compounds the problem & exposes the Guments attack on the unemployed as the farce it is.

Where is a proper jobs policy? Just making the situation of the unemployed such a nasty divisive issue is really cruel & heartless. Is that the way to tackle it? 2 & 3 word slogans & making more people potentially destitute?

 

[telsor]

The thing is, you don't even need to be updated telsor you're just plain wrong. There's a huge number of environmentalists who've been campaigning FOR the use of nuclear power to roll back the effects of pollution and climate from before you would have even heard of the concept.

These people range all the way between your moderate environmentalists, trying to work with the most practical solution to the fairly extreme like James Lovelock who came up with the Gaia hypothesis of the world being a single living organism with tipping points in the 70's. Since that time, at various stages he's said that most of us are going to die this century, but he's always maintained that nuclear power was the only viable option for the UK. Now he might be a bit of a loon but he's deep green and very much in favour of nuclear power.

We're usually courteous enough to distinguish between the politics of Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott so you can open your ears too.

You're right, there is a range of views, and I did narrow it down too far.

That said, I don't recall a lot of support for the idea of replacing coal power plants with nuclear in Australia when it's been raised here before, nor am I familiar with any Australian environmental groups that advocate nuclear power.

 

[smokingjacket]

You're right, there is a range of views, and I did narrow it down too far.

That said, I don't recall a lot of support for the idea of replacing coal power plants with nuclear in Australia when it's been raised here before, nor am I familiar with any Australian environmental groups that advocate nuclear power.

For one there's a more than a few 'green' scientists and advocates of nuclear energy despite the Australian Greens political party not supporting it. Then again the LNP which has a market based solution philosophy as it's supposed core has introduced a direct action plan over an ETS or Tax scheme. Go figure.

Besides you're looking at the wrong people to construct your argument. Scientists and activists will throw up any old batshit scheme they think will be the way of the future if they personally believe it. You should be looking at the CEO's and energy industry leaders and asking why are none of them interested in building nuclear power plants in Australia. For this country it makes no sense for so many reasons. Countries with the need and political will power to do so are investing heavily in nuclear energy.

 

[Mogwai]

I would say so. They have a shitload of coal plants and keep building more, in my opinion and only my opinion I really doubt China give a flying **** about western thoughts on AGW, their population want power and they need to satisfy with a consistent base load capability, for them they see it as coal.

China's main problem is the pollution in cities, especially in Beijing and Shanghai. They have no plans in shutting down the coal industry - instead the old plants that used to be right outside Beijing are being replaced to hundreds of kilometers away in county-grade cities. These county-grade cities gets stuck in a living hell of smog, polluted water instead of the shiny, new cities.

 

[smokingjacket]

Little bit old now but a great little bit on the CSIRO's work in baseload solar.

The Australian science agency CSIRO is working on a super duper “supercritical” steam system for concentrating solar power plants, and in a lucky twist for us over here in the US it turns out that one of CSIRO’s partners in the project is Abengoa Solar.
...The project apparently resulted in the highest temperatures ever achieved globally for steam generated by non-fossil sources.
... "It’s like breaking the sound barrier; this step change proves solar has the potential to compete with the peak performance capabilities of fossil fuel sources. Instead of relying on burning fossil fuels to produce supercritical steam, this breakthrough demonstrates that the power plants of the future could instead be using the free, zero emission energy of the sun to achieve the same result."

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/11/aus-concentrating-solar-power-breakthrough-hit-us-shores/

 

[bombersfan4000]

What do we do when nobody wants our coal because it's dirty fuel and our renewable energy industry has been murdered by this government? I stand by what I said, he's a dangerous idiot.

the world will always want coal.
its easy cheap form of power, it creates thousands of jobs for & earns them trillions of dollars for the governments.
there will always be a demand for coal

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Little bit old now but a great little bit on the CSIRO's work in baseload solar.


http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/11/aus-concentrating-solar-power-breakthrough-hit-us-shores/

and now for the campaigners to flog it off to china and sell it back to us!

 

[swingdog]

and now for the campaigners to flog it off to china and sell it back to us!

It's the Australian way!

 

[skilts]

Worthy and all as I find this debate, FMD, it's dull. I think this has more to do with its participants than the subject matter.

 

[medusala]

What do we do when nobody wants our coal because it's dirty fuel and our renewable energy industry has been murdered by this government? I stand by what I said, he's a dangerous idiot.

The market will redirect cash in to other areas. That is how markets work. Far better than wasting billions of taxpayers $ on renewable pipedreams

And far, far better than forcing Australian businesses to buy credits from overseas under an ETS.

Abbott might be stuffing up many things but on this he is absolutely correct. its not just China that is love with coal.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-german-brown-coal-power-output-a-942216.html

Germany plans to wean itself off CO2-belching coal-fired power stations. But new figures show that coal power output in 2013 reached its highest level in more than 20 years. Researchers blame cheap CO2 emissions permits, and demand urgent reforms.

 

[Lebbo73]

What do we do when nobody wants our coal because it's dirty fuel and our renewable energy industry has been murdered by this government? I stand by what I said, he's a dangerous idiot.

And a lot of people think you are a crazy alarmist

 

[Mningasimisonda]

Nuclear should be considered more. Also others like tidal and solar thermal. There are many sources of energy. Just don't burn fossil fuels and things will improve in terms of climate change.

I think the idea of struggling for power on photovoltaics and wind is not the way of the future. These can be support with another baseload solution but we are limiting ourselves if we have to run everything off them.

Nuclear gets a bad name, but there are safer lower waste fission reactors on the horizon or even buildable at present if there is real interest. And while fusion plants seem like a pipedream, they are clearly in the difficult rather than impossible basket. There's also hybrid reactors.

 

[smokingjacket]

Worthy and all as I find this debate, FMD, it's dull. I think this has more to do with its participants than the subject matter.

Apologies. I'll do my best to keep it upbeat.

 

[smokingjacket]

The market will redirect cash in to other areas. That is how markets work. Far better than wasting billions of taxpayers $ on renewable pipedreams

And far, far better than forcing Australian businesses to buy credits from overseas under an ETS.

Abbott might be stuffing up many things but on this he is absolutely correct. its not just China that is love with coal.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-german-brown-coal-power-output-a-942216.html

Germany plans to wean itself off CO2-belching coal-fired power stations. But new figures show that coal power output in 2013 reached its highest level in more than 20 years. Researchers blame cheap CO2 emissions permits, and demand urgent reforms.

How is it a pipedream? Only a few posts back I gave a link to CSIRO/Abengoa baseload solar project that's actually getting built.

Germany is hardly in love with coal either. They've just canned all of their nuclear power stations (unwisely in my view) and now they need something to quickly fill their energy needs that isn't Russian gas. Included in your own quote it even states that Germany plans to wean itself off coal eventually. That's hardly "coal is good for humanity" talk.

 

[smokingjacket]

I should have gone further actually medusala

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/germany-looks-dump-coal-well-nuclear-16716

The conservative government of Chancellor Angela Merkel last week issued a discussion paper proposing to implement the strictest controls on coal fired generation yet to be seen in Europe, and to redesign its energy system around renewables, which will account for around two thirds of supply within two decades.

The discussion paper has been prompted by the need to deal with massive over-capacity in its energy system, and as Germany commits to phasing out the remainder of its nuclear generators by 2022 and sourcing nearly half of its electricity supply from renewables – hydro, biomass, wind and solar – within a decade.

The response is in stark contrast to the situation in Australia, where the conservative government of Tony Abbott is using the argument of “overcapacity” to shut down the pipeline of new renewable energy projetcs, rather than forcing coal to exit the market.