Top 10 Captains since the Turn of the Century

[Meteoric Rise]

Rewatch some of the footy shows post 2023 GF and see what blokes that played the game said about Pendleburys influence on the ground beyond stats

Jesus, every team who wins a flag has this sort of content about them. That doesn't somehow make a former captain amongst the best captains this century. He had a crack at it but couldn't even win one flag as skipper. Being the best midfielder at remembering the game plan at 35yo doesn't make you Hodge/Cotchin/Voss.

A million posts from these clowns telling us Tiger supporters are desperate for validation then they start claiming their 3 most successful of their last 3 skippers is in the best 5 captains this century - with zero flags in 9 years of captaincy.

Pistol Night To be fair, this post is more directed at Fadge than you. I am sure Pendlebury's direction was valuable to his team-mates in the 2023 GF. But it is tough to exrapolate from that single reference that he is in the top 5 skippers this century as Fadge has done in his o/p.

 

[PhatBoy]

Jesus, every team who wins a flag has this sort of content about them. That doesn't somehow make a former captain amongst the best captains this century. He had a crack at it but couldn't even win one flag as skipper. Being the best midfielder at remembering the game plan at 35yo doesn't make you Hodge/Cotchin/Voss.

A million posts from these clowns telling us Tiger supporters are desperate for validation then they start claiming their 3 most successful of their last 3 skippers is in the best 5 captains this century - with zero flags in 9 years of captaincy.

Can you tell us, definitively, what Cotchin did as a captain, to win those flags.

You keep telling us it was Martin.

Then you tell us it was Hardwick.

Then you tell us it was the system.

Now it’s Cotchin - what was he doing, setting fields?

Again, for the record, I think he was a f**king fantastic captain. I’m just a bit baffled that it always just comes back to ‘oh well he was in charge of this amount of wins.’

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No. I find it hard to rank any of them, to be honest, I think it is one of the most unquantifiable things in the world.

What I am saying is that success is one of the stupidest possible ways you can measure captaincy on its own.

I actually DO rate Cotchin very highly as a captain, Richmond were a joke not just on the field but in every way a club can be a joke, really, and he made them respectable as much in general as they became in their results.

If you’re too stupid to understand the West Coast comment it says a lot about your intelligence.

Do you think given some of the trauma that their club has been through with scandal after scandal, one beloved ex-player who by all reports was very close to the players dying back when they were at their peak, others ODing, their best player and ex-captain with a meth addiction, one of their best players regularly in shit (Kerr) and the club basically falling to pieces and in the time since another member of that group was seemingly unable to keep his life together and has since sadly passed away tragically…..

Now none of that is ANYONE’S fault but the people who did those things. Cousins’ shortcomings were his own. Kerr’s, Mainwaring’s passing (and obviously he wasn’t even a player he was long retired), Fletcher did whatever he did in Vegas, Hunter had his demons etc etc.

That is no one else’s responsibility and should NEVER be viewed that way so please don’t think I’m suggesting that it should be.

But they were winning games, they won a premiership; were a kick away from winning two.

You don’t think better leadership around the club in general could have made that a better environment for the people in it?

I’m not trying to have a go at the eagles club by the way I have a huge amount of respect for them but cousins turned out to be a wrong choice and then poor Chris Judd got saddled with trying to lead a group that were at the top of their game on the field but getting off the rails away from it.

It’s actually amazing and testament to how strong the club itself has been that they’ve kept competing for most of the time since

I agree with most of your points here.

But the Eagles travails are in no way relevant to the question being discussed, ie Cotchin v Pendlebury & Selwood as skippers. Cotchin's players weren't going off the rails on drugs at all let alone left right & centre. So your point is very obscure to what is being discussed.

Eagles 1 kick off 2 flags but same amount off zero flags just for perspective on that comment.

I think it is pretty safe to assume excellent leadership in a team that dominates the competition for 4 years including 3 flags. But who the hell of us could actually know how good any leader is v another, bar Fadge of course, who thinks him making heavily biased guesses = knowing the truth.

 

[PhatBoy]

I agree with most of your points here.

But the Eagles travails are in no way relevant to the question being discussed, ie Cotchin v Pendlebury & Selwood as skippers. Cotchin's players weren't going off the rails on drugs at all let alone left right & centre. So your point is very obscure to what is being discussed.

Eagles 1 kick off 2 flags but same amount off zero flags just for perspective on that comment.

I think it is pretty safe to assume excellent leadership in a team that dominates the competition for 4 years including 3 flags. But who the hell of us could actually know how good any leader is v another, bar Fadge of course, who thinks him making heavily biased guesses = knowing the truth.

No that’s true I’m not trying to make a direct correlation to your actual question I’m simply saying that trying to draw a line between results, and leadership, is a fairly fruitless exercise when every captain or team’s circumstances is different.

does the player who keeps his club together and all the players happy and thriving and competitive when they might otherwise not, do any worse a job than the captain who’s job is basically to toss the coin and who’s team might steamroll their way to a flag anyway and the environment is fairly toxic?


At the moment Max Gawn is probably a very interesting study because the guy from every read we can get on it, is a fantastic bloke, keeps out of trouble for the most part, leaves everything on the field every single time he plays, lead the Demons to a drought breaking flag so he ticks all those boxes.
At the same time they seem to have players wanting to leave in every second story, they’ve underachieved big time, they have some players with some real issues and there’s rumours and scandals etc that won’t go away.
As with Judd NONE of that is Gawn’s fault at all and I feel desperately sorry for him. But maybe there are other leaders who could have prevented that.


As I said in the beginning I find it hard to rate anyone because no one can know that stuff it’s all a guess

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Can you tell us, definitively, what Cotchin did as a captain, to win those flags.

You keep telling us it was Martin.

Then you tell us it was Hardwick.

Then you tell us it was the system.

Now it’s Cotchin - what was he doing, setting fields?

Again, for the record, I think he was a f**king fantastic captain. I’m just a bit baffled that it always just comes back to ‘oh well he was in charge of this amount of wins.’

Ask yourself why you are injecting yourself into a conversation between another poster & me here. Like, be honest with yourself.

The only Richmond person I have made any definitive statements on is the only one who we are in a perfect position to judge - Dustin Martin. This is because his rate of shooting the lights out in finals well above 50%. And by any method of measurement available to us, coaches votes, player ratings, Grand Finals isolated, scoring feats, he is miles ahead of any other player we could fairly measure him against in the biggest games while being consistently very strong in home & away performances.

Go back over my posts on this thread. All I have said is more or less what you are saying, captaincy is very tough to judge from the outside and also very tough to judge v other captains for insiders - because they don't have intimate knowledge of who they are comparing their own skipper/leader against.

But you can pretty much assume that if a team wins multiple flags their coaching, captaincy, best players, fringe players etc have all proven they are up around the best of their category.

 

[RUNVS]

Who are the worst captains?

Gary Ablett Jnr is a contender to be honest as he caused a massive split at Gold Coast, seemingly interested in creating a church gang within the squad and definitely not setting a good team culture. Amazing player, really shit captain.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ask yourself why you are injecting yourself into a conversation between another poster & me here. Like, be honest with yourself.

The only Richmond person I have made any definitive statements on is the only one who we are in a perfect position to judge - Dustin Martin. This is because his rate of shooting the lights out in finals well above 50%. And by any method of measurement available to us, coaches votes, player ratings, Grand Finals isolated, scoring feats, he is miles ahead of any other player we could fairly measure him against in the biggest games while being consistently very strong in home & away performances.

Go back over my posts on this thread. All I have said is more or less what you are saying, captaincy is very tough to judge from the outside and also very tough to judge v other captains for insiders - because they don't have intimate knowledge of who they are comparing their own skipper/leader against.

But you can pretty much assume that if a team wins multiple flags their coaching, captaincy, best players, fringe players etc have all proven they are up around the best of their category.

And I’ve agreed with your last statement.

I don’t agree with shooting down of other options because they DONT fall into those categories, though. And no, that doesn’t include my players. I don’t think Dangerfield is a ‘good’ captain or anything, I didn’t think Cameron Ling was anything above average either. Just an observation.

 

[Trucker Tiger]

Can you tell us, definitively, what Cotchin did as a captain, to win those flags.

You keep telling us it was Martin.

Then you tell us it was Hardwick.

Then you tell us it was the system.

Now it’s Cotchin - what was he doing, setting fields?

Again, for the record, I think he was a f**king fantastic captain. I’m just a bit baffled that it always just comes back to ‘oh well he was in charge of this amount of wins.’

Go back and watch the 2017 QF. Cotchin set the tone. Probably the same for the 2017 PF.

 

[Bald]

I don't think I'd have Cotchin in the top 4, he's got the flags so you need to give him that and he's certainly in the top 10, but personally I'd be more inspired by seeing the things that Selwood, Voss and Hodge did on the field.

But it's different strokes for different folks. I think once you win 3 flags as a skipper you're automatically one of the best to ever captain a team in any time period, it would take a lot to keep a list up for that long.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I don't think I'd have Cotchin in the top 4, he's got the flags so you need to give him that and he's certainly in the top 10, but personally I'd be more inspired by seeing the things that Selwood, Voss and Hodge did on the field.

But it's different strokes for different folks. I think once you win 3 flags as a skipper you're automatically one of the best to ever captain a team in any time period, it would take a lot to keep a list up for that long.

Don't want to get into comparisons here because loads of captains in particular are tough players, including the 3 you mentioned. But if you don't think Cotchin had an inspirational style of play, you simply weren't watching him properly, or the media weren't highlighting it enough for you. Cotchin is right up there with any of them.

 

[PhatBoy]

Don't want to get into comparisons here because loads of captains in particular are tough players, including the 3 you mentioned. But if you don't think Cotchin had an inspiational style of play, you simply weren't watching him properly, or the media weren't highlighting it enough for you. Cotchin is right up there with any of them.

I will say this of him, he grew into that. I think he copped a lot of flak early in his career for probably not immediately reaching the standard some people expected of someone taken at his draft position - and you know my stance on draft numbers and what they mean anyway.

I don’t think it is ever fair to judge players on those things. Deledio suffered from the same problem.

Cotchin got better fairly quickly though and started to stand out in what was still a fairly average team and was obviously one of the better players in it without a lot of meaningful support around him so fair play to him.

You’ve obviously watched a lot more of him than I have over the course of his career, I only began to notice that his physicality stepped up maybe as the need for it arose, ie. when the team itself became more skilled but needed a leader to be charging in and around packs etc and doing the hard stuff.

Like I said I don’t have any qualms saying how good a leader I think he was.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I will say this of him, he grew into that. I think he copped a lot of flak early in his career for probably not immediately reaching the standard some people expected of someone taken at his draft position - and you know my stance on draft numbers and what they mean anyway.

I don’t think it is ever fair to judge players on those things. Deledio suffered from the same problem.

Cotchin got better fairly quickly though and started to stand out in what was still a fairly average team and was obviously one of the better players in it without a lot of meaningful support around him so fair play to him.

You’ve obviously watched a lot more of him than I have over the course of his career, I only began to notice that his physicality stepped up maybe as the need for it arose, ie. when the team itself became more skilled but needed a leader to be charging in and around packs etc and doing the hard stuff.

Like I said I don’t have any qualms saying how good a leader I think he was.

Who can say who is a better skipper? But when a bloke wins a Brownlow & Coaches MVP in one season it tells you he can really play the game. And when he skippers what was a laughing stock to 3 flags & a minor premiership, his leadership goes beyond question, and probably beyond the point where anybody could be confident another person is a better skipper. Similar goes for the likes of Hodge, Voss. You start trying to split these guys on leadership as a casual observer you are reducing the argument to a popularity contest.

But as I wrote in an earlier post, for all we know somebody entirely different and relatively unknown to us could be "the best" captain ever.

 

[Bald]

Don't want to get into comparisons here because loads of captains in particular are tough players, including the 3 you mentioned. But if you don't think Cotchin had an inspirational style of play, you simply weren't watching him properly, or the media weren't highlighting it enough for you. Cotchin is right up there with any of them.

I'm not saying he didn't play inspiring football, not even a bit. I'm only talking personally, I watched the other 3 (more so Hodge and Selwood as I didn't see all of Voss's career) and said to myself I'd love to play for them. I personally never got that feeling about Cotch. It could just be a me thing though.

 

[RUNVS]

Richmond fans know not every thread needs to be turned into a topic about Richmond don't they?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I'm not saying he didn't play inspiring football, not even a bit. I'm only talking personally, I watched the other 3 (more so Hodge and Selwood as I didn't see all of Voss's career) and said to myself I'd love to play for them. I personally never got that feeling about Cotch. It could just be a me thing though.

Results would suggest as much.

Cotchin interestingly is probably the first very successful example of a new style of leadership that seems to be gaining much greater traction in AFL. One where issues I don't even fully understand(because I am a dinosaur) come into focus. Vulnerability, connection, humanity etc. Whatever he was doing it was working seriously well. He himself says he altered the whole way he approached his leadership & football after his 4th season as skipper. To do that takes a lot of humility. In fact I would think most skippers just wouldn't be able to do that.

Providing you were following the story at the time, you only had to watch Richmond play in that period to understand the players were greatly inspired by Cotchin. Every player in the team just did what the team required to function well. For plenty of them(think the likes of McIntosh, D Rioli, Castagna) that meant being mocked as useless even by their own supporters because of the sacrifices they were making to allow the team to function so well. Richmond of course is not the only team in history where this has happened, but they took it to a different level and I would be shocked if Cotchin's captaincy style didn't play a big part in that.

 

[Glorfindel]

I will say this of him, he grew into that. I think he copped a lot of flak early in his career for probably not immediately reaching the standard some people expected of someone taken at his draft position - and you know my stance on draft numbers and what they mean anyway.

I don’t think it is ever fair to judge players on those things. Deledio suffered from the same problem.

Cotchin got better fairly quickly though and started to stand out in what was still a fairly average team and was obviously one of the better players in it without a lot of meaningful support around him so fair play to him.

You’ve obviously watched a lot more of him than I have over the course of his career, I only began to notice that his physicality stepped up maybe as the need for it arose, ie. when the team itself became more skilled but needed a leader to be charging in and around packs etc and doing the hard stuff.

Like I said I don’t have any qualms saying how good a leader I think he was.

It’s interesting to compare Cotchin’s trajectory with Murphy’s.
Both present really well, probably good at the “administrative” side of football & being a captain.
Murph never seemed to develop that on-field edge that Cotch did.
Not sure how much swapping them would have influenced either team’s fortunes but even ignoring team success, Cotchin would get the nod (as a leader) on his onfield exploits.

 

[G String]

I don't think I'd have Cotchin in the top 4, he's got the flags so you need to give him that and he's certainly in the top 10, but personally I'd be more inspired by seeing the things that Selwood, Voss and Hodge did on the field.

But it's different strokes for different folks. I think once you win 3 flags as a skipper you're automatically one of the best to ever captain a team in any time period, it would take a lot to keep a list up for that long.

Can you tell us, definitively, what Cotchin did as a captain, to win those flags.

One example of Cotchins great leadership was that he took Dusty under his wing, built a great relationship with him and steered him in the right direction. He transformed and motivated dusty to be a club first player and was probably the biggest influence on him becoming the greatest rfc player ever (and prob the reason we won 3 flags). That relationship and show of leadership on its own has to be one of the most influential moments in the history of any club.