Ukraine on verge of civil war?

[TheHeatleyStand]

you don't expect us to believe anything again do you?

we need real proof


https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/sta...ifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un.html

we've heard about phone intercepts and we have heard about moving stuff around ' proof' before

what we don't hear is the truth

so if the West lies about the lives of a million people in Iraq I don't think it has a problem lying about 298 lives
unless you're going to argue that to the West the lives of 298 mostly Caucasians are more important than the lives of a million Iraqis?

let's hear you

 

[Zidane98]

Why do you continually reference Iraq when talking about Ukraine? Is that the only topic your employers allow you to speak about at the internet research agency?

Your own Russian mates reported on their very own website shooting a plane down and also your scummy rebel leader Strelkov did on July 17 2014. These are not "western" sources comrade. So once again you fail to quote factual information and continue to ramble on about "the west".

You are failing at doing your job properly tovarisch at the internet research agency in St Petersburg.

Awaiting your well thought out & intellectual reply.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

because it's context
On Crimea it is Russian
look at the belligerents during the Crimean war

ottomans
France
Britain

v

Russia

that's historical context also

I like context

you're trying to mount an argument dismissing any context
though nothing ever is in isolation something always happened before

 

[NTRabbit]

That's Imperial Russia, which also at the time included the country now known as Finland - do you advocate the modern Russian Federation being able to simply invade and take all of Finland as well? How about Alaska? Parts of Poland? How about Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia?

Using the territorial boundaries of the 18th and 19th century Russian Empire to determine what is and is not Russian today is the ridiculous nonsense that underpins the great propaganda campaign for Novorossiya, the long term Russian hardliner plan to seize any territory they feel they ought to own and displace the local populations.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

mate boundaries have changed forever
keeping in mind that this was not Australia

but you do see it as Australia

imperial Russia?
was Russia mate

Russia was partly carved up
Ukraine was split up by western powers ottomans and what was Russia
but the original name of the area was Kiev Russ
The capital was Kiev and after the Mongol hoardes it was moved north to Moscow
Kiev was sacked and the residents were slaughtered and enslaved
Russians have always had Russians in the area called Ukraine
Ukraine actually is the Greek word 'akri' or 'the edge'
edge of the Hellenic Black sea World and the border area to kiev Russ
didn't have an individual identity till Soviet union
was just a generic term

 

[NTRabbit]

The Russian Empire dissolved in revolution, and when it did the independent nations of Russia, Belarus, Transcaucasia, Ukraine were created, (along with some others like Finland and the Baltic states who regained independence separate from the revolution and rejected the revolution until reconquered towards the end of world war 2) each run by their own Soviet, which unified their leadership, but not their borders, under a central Soviet by treaty in 1922. When the Soviet Union ended in 1991, those nations regained their independence.

The Russian Federation today is the successor state to the Russian SFSR, and has absolutely no territorial claims whatsoever to land within any of the other states that succeeded their SFSR or Union Republic predecessors. Any claim to the contrary is pure Kremlin propaganda of no merit.

Russia is actively invading neighbouring countries for the purposes of stealing territory that has never belong to them. It is undeniable.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

The Russian Empire dissolved in revolution, and when it did the independent nations of Russia, Belarus, Transcaucasia, Ukraine were created, (along with some others like Finland and the Baltic states who regained independence separate from the revolution and rejected the revolution until reconquered towards the end of world war 2) each run by their own Soviet, which unified their leadership, but not their borders, under a central Soviet by treaty in 1922. When the Soviet Union ended in 1991, those nations regained their independence.

The Russian Federation today is the successor state to the Russian SFSR, and has absolutely no territorial claims whatsoever to land within any of the other states that succeeded their SFSR or Union Republic predecessors. Any claim to the contrary is pure Kremlin propaganda of no merit.

Russia is actively invading neighbouring countries for the purposes of stealing territory that has never belong to them. It is undeniable.

which countries is Russia invading?

 

[NTRabbit]

which countries is Russia invading?

Currently Ukraine and Georgia, you know this.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Currently Ukraine and Georgia, you know this.

haha
of course they have not Georgia and Ukraine and YOU know this!
if they had have invaded you'd know it

 

[Zidane98]

In TheHeatleyTrollfarm alternative world Russia are 100% squeaky clean. Ukraine isn't a culture or ethnic group - it is part of Russia. A private businessman from Dnipro acquired a military SAM system, fired it at a civilian plane deliberately all because he is a Zionist/pro Israel and wanted to make Russia look bad.

Russia of course have never breached either Georgia or Ukraine's sovereign territory and/or launched military action. They only have the best interests of Ukraine / Georgia at heart.

Russia and rebel constituents didn't have any involvement at all in the shooting down of MH17 which was downed from separatist / Russian controlled territory. The separatists are peaceful and only have the best interests of East Ukrainians at heart (despite 2 million of them being displaced to other areas of Ukraine)!!

Reality is much different of course.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

well Russia has Crimea and a third of the rest of Ukraine on its side


maybe not squeaky clean ( is any country?)
but not Nazis as was is some ukranians past and present

undeniably

 

[NTRabbit]

well Russia has Crimea and a third of the rest of Ukraine on its side

When you use the military and PMC's to invade, forcibly seize, and occupy parts of another country before displacing the local populations, that doesn't actually count as being "on their side".

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

In TheHeatleyTrollfarm alternative world Russia are 100% squeaky clean. Ukraine isn't a culture or ethnic group - it is part of Russia. A private businessman from Dnipro acquired a military SAM system, fired it at a civilian plane deliberately all because he is a Zionist/pro Israel and wanted to make Russia look bad.

Russia of course have never breached either Georgia or Ukraine's sovereign territory and/or launched military action. They only have the best interests of Ukraine / Georgia at heart.

Russia and rebel constituents didn't have any involvement at all in the shooting down of MH17 which was downed from separatist / Russian controlled territory. The separatists are peaceful and only have the best interests of East Ukrainians at heart (despite 2 million of them being displaced to other areas of Ukraine)!!

Reality is much different of course.

why trollfarm buddy?
because I know more about the history and am more accurate than you gives you the excuse to not debate but to get nasty!?
I don't fall to your depths of historical inaccuracies and personal attacks
it just means you can't argue a reasonable debate

Georgia was not invaded by Russia and not was Ukraine

if they were Russia would be burping inside a few days lol

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

When you use the military and PMC's to invade, forcibly seize, and occupy parts of another country before displacing the local populations, that doesn't actually count as being "on their side".

example?

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

When you use the military and PMC's to invade, forcibly seize, and occupy parts of another country before displacing the local populations, that doesn't actually count as being "on their side".

are we talking USA UK Australia here or Russia!?

if Russia you'll need to give us a citation of invasion

you can't just make it up

 

[Zidane98]

why trollfarm buddy?
because I know more about the history and am more accurate than you gives you the excuse to not debate but to get nasty!?
I don't fall to your depths of historical inaccuracies and personal attacks
it just means you can't argue a reasonable debate

Georgia was not invaded by Russia and not was Ukraine

if they were Russia would be burping inside a few days lol

Continually repeating the Russia is great mantra repeatedly while ignoring factual evidence quoted to you and failure of yourself to quote factual information are usual signs of a typical Russian troll.

Try and post an argument by citing some actual facts instead of your anti western ramblings which lack factual information.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

you haven't provided an argument
I haven't said Russia is great except it crushed Isis and has no debt doesn't use genetically modified foods and is an organic food provider plus has a vision for its future
plus reunited it's people from artificial country Ukraine and the rest are longing to reunite that will ultimately put Ukraine into the bowels of Soviet history where that artificialdom belongs
most of the people in West Ukraine are waking up except the few who are led by a couple of paid off oligarchs and the right sektor

it's you guys promoting unverifiable stuff that need to clarify with facts

anti western ramblings?
of course can criticise the West.. lol

remember wmd Korea Vietnam Guatemala Nicaragua Chile Argentina ?

are you serious?

you really need to come out into the sunshine instead of personally attack and throw away generic fake and unproven lines

it's much better to be critical than sycophant

especially when we're taking about the right sektor Nazis in Ukraine that you're so big on supporting

Ukraine will be returning as a Russia's younger sibling but without Crimea of course

that's gone! The people won that vote fair and square!
Victoria Nuland and her neo conservatives destroyed Ukraine and the people are waking up to it now
they feel abandoned by the West.. and they know Russia will always stand by them

and there is no way Russia was going to lose Crimea with a fake Maidan coup created in Washington with billions of dollars
Crimea was/is and will always be Russian because ninety percent of its population identify themselves with Russia

which bit of that is not factual?

 

[Zidane98]

you haven't provided an argument
I haven't said Russia is great except it crushed Isis and has no debt doesn't use genetically modified foods and is an organic food provider plus has a vision for its future
plus reunited it's people from artificial country Ukraine and the rest are longing to reunite that will ultimately put Ukraine into the bowels of Soviet history where that artificialdom belongs
most of the people in West Ukraine are waking up except the few who are led by a couple of paid off oligarchs and the right sektor

it's you guys promoting unverifiable stuff that need to clarify with facts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Early_history

Ukraine has been around in one shape or form as a nation for centuries. It is distinctly different from Russia.

Ukrainians are also an ethnic group with their own language & culture and typically come from the area that is modern Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians


These are facts comrade. Something which you continually ignore yet accuse others of doing which is typical troll farm behaviour. Ukraine is not an "artificial" country in any way - that is an outright lie and you know it.



Personally I commend the bravery of Ukrainians for wanting to escape the clutches of Russian corruption & fascism by moving towards Europan integration. It won't be easy for them as the Russian fascists are constantly trying to destabilise the county and derail the economy which they have partially succeeded at by backing the ongoing Donbass war.

Putin is the ultimate right, just recently he was lapping it up in Austria with the far right sektor.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Wikipedia?

you're a scholar aren't you? lol

ok let's get back to Victoria Nuland and American meddling in Ukraine affairs and pushing a split

now I'm not a kid in year 5 to resort to Wikipedia right?

I'll do true scholarship and resort to what real facts are..


let's go to the video!

this is the US ambassador talking and admitting to meddling in a foreign countries affairs ( hypocritical yes?) and how they're trying to shoehorn the Ukraine into their sphere of influence and to hell with everybody else


here it goes





am I being anti western here?


I look forward to your Wikipedia octane reply

...

go for it!

 

[Zidane98]

Wikipedia?

you're a scholar aren't you? lol

ok let's get back to Victoria Nuland and American meddling in Ukraine affairs and pushing a split

now I'm not a kid in year 5 to resort to Wikipedia right?

I'll do true scholarship and resort to what real facts are..


let's go to the video!

this is the US ambassador talking and admitting to meddling in a foreign countries affairs ( hypocritical yes?) and how they're trying to shoehorn the Ukraine into their sphere of influence and to hell with everybody else


here it goes





am I being anti western here?


I look forward to your Wikipedia octane reply

...

go for it!

Believe it or not peace and a prosperous economy are favourable in Ukraine are favourable for their relationship with Ukraine so it isn't surprising that there is support for a government that wants European integration. That's what the role of being an ambassador is - buipd8ng political relationships with nations. Obviously you don't seem to understand that comrade.

And let's be real - Russia had been raping & pillaging Ukraine for years through Yanukovych who is essentially Putin's right hand man. That's why your mates got so upset when they decided to pursue democracy & EU integration. Ukraine is the wife who has finally left an abusive husband.

But of course you don't have a problem with that over at the St Petersburg branch of the "internet research agency".

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Ukrainians have their own ethn


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Early_history

Ukraine has been around in one shape or form as a nation for centuries. It is distinctly different from Russia.

Ukrainians are also an ethnic group with their own language & culture and typically come from the area that is modern Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians


These are facts comrade. Something which you continually ignore yet accuse others of doing which is typical troll farm behaviour. Ukraine is not an "artificial" country in any way - that is an outright lie and you know it.



Personally I commend the bravery of Ukrainians for wanting to escape the clutches of Russian corruption & fascism by moving towards Europan integration. It won't be easy for them as the Russian fascists are constantly trying to destabilise the county and derail the economy which they have partially succeeded at by backing the ongoing Donbass war.

Putin is the ultimate right, just recently he was lapping it up in Austria with the far right sektor.

Ukraine was never a nation mate
was originally with Russia as Kiev Rus
then split away with western empires and Ottomans for centuries part always stayed with Russia

The Russian part fought the Nazis with the Russians

The Galicia part which was for centuries mixing with the West and under the western empires also had a bunch of Polish German peoples.

during the war they sided with the Nazis against the more Russian people of the area


nazi battalions sprung up like the Ukrainian Schutzmannschaftant battalions

know anything about Bandera? Nazi leader of the Nazi Ukrainians of the time that delighted in murdering Jews and Russians?

if you don't we can enter his history as historical context


but millions of Ukrainians joined the Red army to fight the ukie Nazis and German Nazis

these Nazis still exist in Ukraine
they were used in maidan protests as shock troops and are still being used to keep ordinary Ukrainians in line



here we have a bunch of Ukrainian neo fascists parading for a dead Ukrainian fascist who had sided with Hitler to murder millions



and you think the Russians who broke fascism ( both Hitler and Bandera) are the fascists?

Russian Ukrainians died fighting fascism and will fight it again
they're not going to allow this to take off against them again

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

EU doesn't want integration with Ukraine

There would be many millions of modern day fascists trudging through the EU along with everybody else

The EU can't afford Ukraine lol

that's crazy

which is why Nuland was caught saying " fk the EU;"

they only wanted Crimea so the Russians can't use it as a naval base

remember it was khrushchev himself a Ukrainian that gifted Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 when the whole of the Soviet union was a single county.. it didn't identify as Ukraine which was a hotchpotch of different people's and areas depending on who ruled over it for centuries
it identified itself as Russian , Russian orthodox and not eastern rite Catholic etc

and being one of the parts of what's since been called Ukraine that fought against the Nazis it wasn't going to be ruled by a fascist again western Kiev in the West

which part of all this isn't historically factual?

we can move on to other areas in Ukraine like Sevastopol and Odessa.. heinous crimes that happened there recently too by the Ukraine right sektor shock troops that just isn't reported in western media

but let's finish this bit before we move to the other areas in eastern Ukraine being saveged

they're not going to join up with this
lol

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...guage-law-justified-rights-body-idUSKBN1E227K

there's only two options going forward

one is the eastern part will join with Russia completely

The other is will unite and be friendly with Russia but minus Crimea

it's back to Russia forever.. ninety percent of the people voted for it

and the West can't make Russia give up it's most important naval base
that's finished

shot themselves in the foot

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Ukraine isn't an ethnic group
it's made up of cobbled together parts under the genetic name Ukraine ' Borderlands' or literally ' the edge' in Greek!


To claim Ukrainians are a single ethnic group means you really don't know what you're talking about and if I were you I wouldn't go to Wikipedia for my historical context

Romanians Hungarians slovaks poles Austrians, Germans Russians aren't a monoethnic group lol

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1E227K

speaking of which, here is an article about progressive Ukraine and it's single ethnicity as you would like us to believe
your very scholastic approach to this topic via Wikipedia

opinions need to be formed based on truth and historical context plus facts on the ground

you can see how much of what's been said isn't factual about Crimea and Ukraine with Russia

people need to understand the facts for themselves rather than believe what western mainstream media has pushed

I thought we learnt this with Iraq.. but sadly no!
we see it with Ukraine and we see it with Syria and we saw it with Libya that we're not even bothering to revisit anymore..

mess after mess after mess and the show would like to move on to Iran..

one of the things about living in a democracy is you have a responsibility to check things out for yourselves and not believe politicians or the media..

 

[Zidane98]

You claim:

Ukraine wanted Crimea to prevent the Russians using it as a naval base:


Factual information:

Ukraine signed a lease until 2042 (with a further 5 year option) for Russia's Black Sea Naval fleet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact


You are lying through your teeth and you know it. Russia always had access to its Naval fleet and was guaranteed to do so until 2042. You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to make claims that are absolutely 100% factually incorrect.


Ukrainians are an ethnic group, that's a fact. No wonder Ukraine doesn't want the Russian fascists any longer when they don't even acknowledge Ukraine's very own culture and ethnicity.

And they certainly don't want the help of the fascist Russian scumbags who starved and murdered 3 million plus Ukrainians during Holomodor.

I can bet your auto reply to that will be yet another denial of Russia's past atrocities laced with accusations of west/right sector and completely lacking in factual information. I reckon your bosses are going to sack you soon at the internet research agency in St Petersburg comrade - you aren't doing a good job in this argument and are making Russians look rather foolish.