Underwhelming/Underachieving players

[Damon_3388]

Sounds like a whole heap of excuses.

Fair and honest reasons, yes.

Perhaps you could explain what the expectations are for him, and how is he falling short of them?

Again, he was never a high draft pick, was completely overlooked in two drafts, is small, and has dealt with numerous injuries, one of which was potentially career-threatening (how many athletes come back strongly in any sport after back surgery?).

The Pies made a GF without him last year. He's a bonus player at this point.

You’re incredibly biased towards Collingwood players. Obviously they can do no wrong in your eyes. No point having a conversation with someone who lacks objectivity.

Not the case at all, but OK.

I could say you're incredibly biased against Collingwood players too, from what I've seen, and won't accept any argument against what you claim, either.

 

[Damon_3388]

Charlie Dixon

Injuries aside (he's played 126 of a possible 182 games in his career so far), Dixon has evolved into one of the best contested marks in the league. He's not a ruckman though, and it detracts from his overall game and wears his body down when he's forced to play there (such as last year, when Paddy Ryder was out for large stretches).

He was a foundation player (first player signed in pre-listing in 2008) and Gold Coast native, and has actually improved on the reasons that GC were willing to let him go for as well (durability, contested marking) since coming to Port Adelaide.

 

[Zoom]

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You don’t have to be a high draft pick to be considered as underwhelming. Early doors he was widely lauded by Pie fans (and others) as one of the best small forwards in the game but he has never kicked on. Is he even best 22 at Collingwood? When WHE comes back, who makes way? When he was injured, all we heard about was what a massive out he was to your side, now that he’s back all we hear is excuses and that he is just a “bonus” as a opposed to a destined superstar. Yes, injuries have disrupted his career somewhat, but a lot of the players in this thread have had their respective development issues. I guess that’s the whole point of this discussion - players that have failed to deliver due to various reasons.

A comparable player to Elliot would be Luke Breust. Very similar attributes (although Breust is the vastly superior player) and I think they have a similar playing style/role. Given the hype surrounding Elliot, it is reasonable to expect he should be at (or near) Breust’s levels. But he’s not, therefore he belongs in here.

I’ve called out both Elliot and Jaidyn Stephenson as they have been incredibly overhyped. There was a thread on the main board last season claiming Stephenson will be a future Brownlow medalist on the back of a semi decent season. He has shown little to suggest he will be Brownlow medal winning quality. How often do outside seagulls with no contested game win Brownlow medals? Collingwood fans hype their own more than any other supporter. Just because I’m keeping you lot honest, does not mean I’m “incredibly biased”.

 

[Damon_3388]

You don’t have to be a high draft pick to be considered as underwhelming. Early doors he was widely lauded by Pie fans (and others) as one of the best small forwards in the game but he has never kicked on. Is he even best 22 at Collingwood? When WHE comes back, who makes way? When he was injured, all we heard about was what a massive out he was to your side, now that he’s back all we hear is excuses and that he is just a “bonus” as a opposed to a destined superstar. Yes, injuries have disrupted his career somewhat, but a lot of the players in this thread have had their respective development issues. I guess that’s the whole point of this discussion - players that have failed to deliver due to various reasons.

A comparable player to Elliot would be Luke Breust. Very similar attributes (although Breust is the vastly superior player) and I think they have a similar playing style/role. Given the hype surrounding Elliot, it is reasonable to expect he should be at (or near) Breust’s levels. But he’s not, therefore he belongs in here.

I’ve called out both Elliot and Jaidyn Stephenson as they have been incredibly overhyped. There was a thread on the main board last season claiming Stephenson will be a future Brownlow medalist on the back of a semi decent season. He has shown little to suggest he will be Brownlow medal winning quality. How often do outside seagulls with no contested game win Brownlow medals? Collingwood fans hype their own more than any other supporter. Just because I’m keeping you lot honest, does not mean I’m “incredibly biased”.

Sorry, I was expecting something more concrete than "Elliott or Stephenson haven't yet lived up to the overhype/excitement of a few Collingwood supporters" (we're not all a collective groupthink with one opinion). That's the "expectation" they "haven't lived up to"? Ok then...

 

[Zoom]

Sorry, I was expecting something more concrete than "Elliott or Stephenson haven't yet lived up to the overhype/excitement of a few Collingwood supporters" (we're not all a collective groupthink with one opinion). That's the "expectation" they "haven't lived up to"? Ok then...

Like I said, he hasn’t had the career that he was expected to have and has therefore underwhelmed. He belongs in this thread whether you like it or not.

 

[Damon_3388]

Like I said, he hasn’t had the career that he was expected to have and has therefore underwhelmed. He belongs in this thread whether you like it or not.

Well, I disagree, for the reasons already explained, which I think are fair and reasonable.

 

[Zoom]

Well, I disagree, for the reasons already explained, which I think are fair and reasonable.

And I countered your reasons but you either misinterpreted a lot of what I said or chose to ignore crucial parts of my reasoning, but OK.

 

[Damon_3388]

And I countered your reasons but you either misinterpreted a lot of what I said or chose to ignore crucial parts of my reasoning, but OK.

Your counter dismissed my reasoning as excuses and bias, and didn't really provide a lot of substance beyond that.

 

[Zoom]

Your counter dismissed my reasoning as excuses and bias, and didn't really provide a lot of substance beyond that.

Which they were. You could literally excuse most players in this thread as you have done with Elliot.

As for substance, not sure what else you want me to add. He has not lived up to the expectations of the footballing public and the mere fact you tried to excuse his performances tells me you agree with this notion.

 

[Damon_3388]

Which they were. You could literally excuse most players in this thread as you have done with Elliot.

Nope.

As for substance, not sure what else you want me to add. He has not lived up to the expectations of the footballing public and the mere fact you tried to excuse his performances tells me you agree with this notion.

Also, nope.

 

[Zoom]

Nope.



Also, nope.

And you say my arguments lack substance. You’re finished.

 

[Damon_3388]

And you say my arguments lack substance. You’re finished.

So are you.

But now let's cue your response, so that you can have the last word, to "win" the argument and add points to your internet credibility score.

 

[mehow2g]

Well, being a former #2 draft pick (he was considered to be the projected #1 pick for most of his draft year, too), there's a reasonable expectation that he'll become a superstar, and be on pace to become one in their prime years (ages 25-29, usually seasons 7-11) by their 5th year. Otherwise, why would a club want first dibs on him as an 18-year old by picking him at #2 in the National Draft?

Draft pick numbers have no credibility, yes the chances are higher to gain a decent player however it does not equal success, Melbourne's track record on number one draft picks are laughable too, and who said he was projected to be number 1? The media.

He's shown nothing to suggest he will be a superstar pre and post draft that hype only comes from AFL back media then regurgitated by football fans.

Just to go back to Melbourne's draft picks and media, Tom scully was seen and hyped as the Messiah, anyone with a brain would have seen Dusty was the best out of that draft.

Jack watts????

 

[The Donners]

Who are some players that maybe a year or two into their careers, you thought would be absolute stars but just never reached those heights?

One for me is Daniel Rich. I thought he was going to be an absolute gun. He turned out to be ok, a C+ to B- type of player.

Hurley is another decent player, but I thought he was going to be much better. I still have a visual of him early in his career as a forward...a game maybe against Hawthorn. Had the ball from just outside 50, off a few steps on his left foot just put it straight through the middle. I thought he was going to be one of the elite players of the competition.
He has turned out to be a solid defender, but thought he would have been so much more.

He’s a 2 x All Australian. Your expectations must’ve been very high.

 

[Hank Scorpion]

Nobody mentioned Rhys Palmer yet? Probably the most underwhelming Rising Star winner.

 

[Richo83]

Damien Cupido
Sean Rusling
Richard Cole
Kayne Pettifer

 

[Hard Ball Get]

After 2015 I thought Stringer was going to be unstoppable.
He has recaptured some form, but is still a long way off 2015.

Still think he will get back to really good footy, but doubt he'll ever become what looked possible.

 

[Damon_3388]

Draft pick numbers have no credibility, yes the chances are higher to gain a decent player however it does not equal success, Melbourne's track record on number one draft picks are laughable too, and who said he was projected to be number 1? The media.

He's shown nothing to suggest he will be a superstar pre and post draft that hype only comes from AFL back media then regurgitated by football fans.

Just to go back to Melbourne's draft picks and media, Tom scully was seen and hyped as the Messiah, anyone with a brain would have seen Dusty was the best out of that draft.

Jack watts????

You're viewing things with too much hindsight. Obviously the draft order doesn't play out exactly as planned 5-10 years down the track, but the expectation is there that you'll be getting a future star with an early pick.

The whole point of the draft is to acquire the best talent available, and/or get the best junior talent into your system, to develop for the future. So logic would say that the higher the pick, the better the player is expected to be, right now and/or potentially once they mature (for most players, their prime years are or are expected to be ages 25-29). Otherwise, what's the point of a draft order and recruiting teams and research at all? May as well just throw all the nominees and clubs into a hat, and mix and match.

Petracca won the medal for the best player at the U/18 Championships in his draft year, and was seen to have the athleticism and potential to improve to go far beyond that, once he reached AFL level. He was expected to have the physical capacity and skill to be much more than an 18-19 disposal, goal a game flanker by his 5th season.

 

[Damon_3388]

After 2015 I thought Stringer was going to be unstoppable.
He has recaptured some form, but is still a long way off 2015.

Still think he will get back to really good footy, but doubt he'll ever become what looked possible.

I think both he, his coaches, and supporters became too obsessed with what he could be (there was so much talk about him "becoming a midfield pinch-hitter" at one stage, based on a couple of GIFs of him sprinting with the footy in open space) and "making him more versatile" and "taking advantage of his athleticism", rather than continuing to just use him in a way and continuing to do what worked.

I've always thought he was a rich man's (in terms of, he's somewhat panned out and at least justified the hype and draft position) Jarrod Grant.

 

[PiesUserName]

He’s a 2 x All Australian. Your expectations must’ve been very high.

I know he is a very good player and I do rate him. All I saying is that I remember him I think it was against Hawthorn in his first season and killed it as a forward and kicked like 4-5 goals and was a match winner. I remember him wheeling around from outside 50 off a couple of steps on his left foot and just bang it through.
I thought he was going to be one of the elite superstars as a forward.

He got moved around the next couple of seasons between forward and back and after a while got settled as a defender and has been a very good one.

I just thought he was going to be an elite forward after seeing him in his first season and the cream of crop of the competition.

Sounds like I am insulting him, but I'm not as I know he is one of the top defenders.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

I think both he, his coaches, and supporters became too obsessed with what he could be (there was so much talk about him "becoming a midfield pinch-hitter" at one stage, based on a couple of GIFs of him sprinting with the footy in open space) and "making him more versatile" and "taking advantage of his athleticism", rather than continuing to just use him in a way and continuing to do what worked.

I've always thought he was a rich man's (in terms of, he's somewhat panned out and at least justified the hype and draft position) Jarrod Grant.

Couldn't disagree more. He had more personal issues than any 22 year old should have and it's taken a toll. He was an amazing junior, an incredible young AFL player and hasn't reached what he could have. The Ablett comparisons, while premature and hyperbolic for the time, were not implausible.

He could have retired at 23 and been nothing like Jarrod Grant.

 

[t_94]

Luke Penny. Was expecting him to be a gun defender for a decade. Was shattered when he went to the Saints.

In the end, he was shit.

Grant Thomas pretty much forced him to play through injuries.

 

[The Donners]

I know he is a very good player and I do rate him. All I saying is that I remember him I think it was against Hawthorn in his first season and killed it as a forward and kicked like 4-5 goals and was a match winner. I remember him wheeling around from outside 50 off a couple of steps on his left foot and just bang it through.
I thought he was going to be one of the elite superstars as a forward.

He got moved around the next couple of seasons between forward and back and after a while got settled as a defender and has been a very good one.

I just thought he was going to be an elite forward after seeing him in his first season and the cream of crop of the competition.

Sounds like I am insulting him, but I'm not as I know he is one of the top defenders.

No insult at all.

Hurley himself prefers being a defender. He is a better defender than forward. I know the game you’re talking about, it was against Hawthorn and I think it was 2009 (without googling).

 

[The Donners]

Lee Walker, Scott Gumbleton, Allen Jakovich, Adrian McAdam, Dean Rioli, Andrew Lovett, Jack Watts.

 

[Former Decathlete]

Sam bloody Reid.

9 years of 500k+ contracts.
Thats somewhere between $4 and 5 million for a very underwhelming performer.

His stats are the stats of a Jesse White type player but has been paid twice as much for his entire career.