Unions need more power in Australia

[Darkyprotector]

The first 2 issues that you refer to there are, again, not new news... The conflict in Iraq and existence of detention centres were both issues while Labor governments were in power. I'm not for a second suggesting they are not issues that are worthy of debate and, where appropriate, condemnation, all I am trying to highlight is that it is a misrepresentation of the truth to say that conservative governments are solely responsible for them. Labor governments have at the very least been complicit in them.

As for the last one, I actually agree with you. I'm not sure that such a defence heavy agenda is necessarily the best way to go. On the other hand I'm yet to hear any plans for "nation building" from Labor, The Greens or anyone else for that matter that could have that level of economic benefit. While that isn't the be all and end all of policy it certainly helps.

Yeah , love selective memorys
Well if we want some change have a look at state labour governments
As we speak the SA government has had enough of being used as a political football and is delivering outcomes that benefit ALL ,whilst fizzer , Eric , Morrison keep fiddling with the truth
Nsw and WA BOTH conservative , build stadiums which is of low benefit to many but great for James packer and ginas mob
Neg gearing shemozle and lies
60 billion in Corporate tax cuts that NEVER TRICKLE DOWN
These peanuts don't understand what an economy means
To be successful money needs to flow so it creates , not sitting in a account , not sitting in existing property pushing up prices
it was as per labour policy when immigrating to places that need support not given priority access to our largest cities cause they come with illicit cash
At least Howard understood this with his buy a vote baby bonus
Quick facts
They have Wrecked the housing market with negative gearing and now APRA is cracking down on interest only loans which is stifling commercial property development
Now in 2 years all will need refinance , all will need LMI insurance which is owned by o/s interests as they won't have 20% equity
A lot will be sold and a crash WILL occur
But like the recent global financial crisis , labour will SAVE our bacon
As no doubt it will occur when the WRECKERS are out
Then of course we will get a blatant attack by the Murdoch press as the runs are on the board over 30 years
Oh by the way , you prefer our banks and mining being owned by overseas interests , loving 29c per tonne royalties, no tax
The Darwin port , power?
Conservatives sold it all
Idea
Spend the 3.8 billion on this
Now what about re tooling our existing factories to electric tesla cars
In 4 years ban all non electric cars and subsidise everyone 3k per year of licence to get one
You know it's very very obvious
You know we are a CONTINENT
and I believe we are alone in that respect
Instead of detaining people , give em a chance value add open up australia by building 2 cities ( like china)
Most immigrants are now from arid climates and are suited
Export to asia and subsidise change overs
Become THE COUNTRY of food and water and export as well
We waste money and the 75 billion cAn be spent much more beneficially

 

[DivideandMultiply]

The unions absolutely need more power in Australia.

Wage stagnation and the explosion of innequality, match the decline in union memebership and power in an almost perfect inverse negative trendline.

Basically, if the majority of Australians want to be wealthier, we need to upscale union participation and remove the legislative hurdles that have de-fanged unions. I thought many here hated red tape. Well less red tape for unions means better wages for Australians.

 

[aCunningPlan]

Absolutely love my union, the MEAA do great things.

I take that back, they have no concept of natural justice or how the general workers feel. Their backing of these Sovereign Hill claims are opportunistic sensationalism to have a dig at the business rather than trying to find the truth.

 

[Power Raid]

The point is that Grocon have a history of not paying their bills, of deaths, and of injuries on sites.

What could possibly be causing the government to look away from that and focus on unions instead? Hmmm

Ever think about why companies like Grollo exist in the industry but honest quality companies can’t survive?

Perhaps unless you pay the $5m to $15m kick back to the unions, per building you get squeezed out?

Hmmmm

Could this be a light bulb moment that corrupt unions are keeping honest people out of the sector?

 

[Power Raid]

Care to explain why we have no car manufacturing industry in Australia, and why the Unions are to blame?
Also, I assume you earn more than $1.30 an hour in the work that you do, assuming you work.
Then you're much better off than manufacturing workers in China.

Perhaps ask the same question about our shipping industry and gas trains.

 

[rodney hoo]

I was part of an EBA around the time that Workchoices came in for a very large company and was given the choice of going on to an AWA.

My sick leave didnt change, my hours didnt change, i didn't become a casual, i didnt have to work overtime, i didnt lose any conditions at all.

All that changed, was I was given the option to earn commission in exchange for putting a portion of my salary (20% i think) 'at risk'. I was confident that I was good at my job, my employer (and the government) werent out to 'con' me, so I agreed to the change. I think out of about 80 employees in our particular office, only 2 people opted to change. It was a very unionised office, especially amongst the older staff, and most did not want to change as they felt it was effectively a trick to get them to give up conditions. Personally I think some were insecure about their own ability, but that's neither here nor there.

After the change I was clearing 200-300% of my usual fortnightly wage. Its a while ago so I dont remember the exact number, but I remember one of my pays was close to 10k which was about 8 times what I would have received. I eventually moved to another job that wasn't a sales job, and I have no doubt they would have adjusted some of our sales targets to prevent paying out so much money, but I would still have been able to earn far more money on an AWA than on an EBA.

That was my experience. I am sure others were very different. But I was certainly wasn't conned and no one else was either.

You must be a very lucky man, 200-300% more per fortnight for just changing to an EBA, and even getting $10g one pay packet, you must work for turdbull, his staff seem to get extreme pay rises while everyone else is battling for a buck. Good luck to you but most people were conned.

 

[nobbyiscool]

I take that back, they have no concept of natural justice or how the general workers feel. Their backing of these Sovereign Hill claims are opportunistic sensationalism to have a dig at the business rather than trying to find the truth.

I wish it was. The situation out there is seriously bad. They're not trying to have a go at the business, they're targeting a specific couple of people at Sov Hill.

 

[aCunningPlan]

I wish it was. The situation out there is seriously bad. They're not trying to have a go at the business, they're targeting a specific couple of people at Sov Hill.

There is another side to this story that has not been told.

 

[nobbyiscool]

There is another side to this story that has not been told.

More than one side...

 

[aCunningPlan]

More than one side...

Very true.

 

[Power Raid]

I was part of an EBA around the time that Workchoices came in for a very large company and was given the choice of going on to an AWA.

My sick leave didnt change, my hours didnt change, i didn't become a casual, i didnt have to work overtime, i didnt lose any conditions at all.

All that changed, was I was given the option to earn commission in exchange for putting a portion of my salary (20% i think) 'at risk'. I was confident that I was good at my job, my employer (and the government) werent out to 'con' me, so I agreed to the change. I think out of about 80 employees in our particular office, only 2 people opted to change. It was a very unionised office, especially amongst the older staff, and most did not want to change as they felt it was effectively a trick to get them to give up conditions. Personally I think some were insecure about their own ability, but that's neither here nor there.

After the change I was clearing 200-300% of my usual fortnightly wage. Its a while ago so I dont remember the exact number, but I remember one of my pays was close to 10k which was about 8 times what I would have received. I eventually moved to another job that wasn't a sales job, and I have no doubt they would have adjusted some of our sales targets to prevent paying out so much money, but I would still have been able to earn far more money on an AWA than on an EBA.

That was my experience. I am sure others were very different. But I was certainly wasn't conned and no one else was either.

don't go promoting the concepts of alignment of interests between employees and employers, that result in better outcomes for both.

the best model is having a antagonistic approach, with the introduction of third parties who is more interested in personal kick backs than trying to understanding positive outcomes or objectives.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yeah , love selective memorys
Well if we want some change have a look at state labour governments
As we speak the SA government has had enough of being used as a political football and is delivering outcomes that benefit ALL ,whilst fizzer , Eric , Morrison keep fiddling with the truth
Nsw and WA BOTH conservative , build stadiums which is of low benefit to many but great for James packer and ginas mob
Neg gearing shemozle and lies
60 billion in Corporate tax cuts that NEVER TRICKLE DOWN
These peanuts don't understand what an economy means
To be successful money needs to flow so it creates , not sitting in a account , not sitting in existing property pushing up prices
it was as per labour policy when immigrating to places that need support not given priority access to our largest cities cause they come with illicit cash
At least Howard understood this with his buy a vote baby bonus
Quick facts
They have Wrecked the housing market with negative gearing and now APRA is cracking down on interest only loans which is stifling commercial property development
Now in 2 years all will need refinance , all will need LMI insurance which is owned by o/s interests as they won't have 20% equity
A lot will be sold and a crash WILL occur
But like the recent global financial crisis , labour will SAVE our bacon
As no doubt it will occur when the WRECKERS are out
Then of course we will get a blatant attack by the Murdoch press as the runs are on the board over 30 years
Oh by the way , you prefer our banks and mining being owned by overseas interests , loving 29c per tonne royalties, no tax
The Darwin port , power?
Conservatives sold it all
Idea
Spend the 3.8 billion on this
Now what about re tooling our existing factories to electric tesla cars
In 4 years ban all non electric cars and subsidise everyone 3k per year of licence to get one
You know it's very very obvious
You know we are a CONTINENT
and I believe we are alone in that respect
Instead of detaining people , give em a chance value add open up australia by building 2 cities ( like china)
Most immigrants are now from arid climates and are suited
Export to asia and subsidise change overs
Become THE COUNTRY of food and water and export as well
We waste money and the 75 billion cAn be spent much more beneficially

I hope you took a breath during all of that! Quite the manifesto... There are far too many things here for me to address so I'll focus on the ones where I have direct, industry based knowledge.

Can you please show me either the financial modelling or taxation reports that show mining companies are paying 29c royalties and no tax (on a consistent basis - there will always be examples of this occurring in specific periods)? If it were the case that they were paying no tax they would be out of business (or heading in that direction) as it means they are not making any money. Yes royalties are tax deductible but that is no different to any other business expense, I don't know how people have some much difficulty reconciling this issue.

I thought we put the debate about automotive subsidies to bed yesterday but obviously not. How much will be required to subsidise the re-tooling of plants and banning of non-electric vehicles? Let's re-ignite an industry that we found to be uncompetitive in the global economy! We sell over 1 million new cars per year in Australia, using your $3k subsidy as an example the $3.8 billion that you refer to would be eaten up in 2 years!

In relation to the property market it sounds to me like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too... You propose removing the benefits associated with negative gearing to drive prices down and make the market more accessible but go on to say that we are destined for disaster with refinancing causing a property sell off... Isn't lower prices exactly what you are asking for?

What value will be added by these new cities? What are the industries that we can be commercially competitive in that are so under resourced at present that we can generate such incremental market share to justify the expenditure? I'd be happy to debate the merits of them but "build it and they will come" isn't an economically pragmatic, or logical, one.

 

[Power Raid]

Yeah , love selective memorys
Well if we want some change have a look at state labour governments
As we speak the SA government has had enough of being used as a political football and is delivering outcomes that benefit ALL ,whilst fizzer , Eric , Morrison keep fiddling with the truth
Nsw and WA BOTH conservative , build stadiums which is of low benefit to many but great for James packer and ginas mob
Neg gearing shemozle and lies
60 billion in Corporate tax cuts that NEVER TRICKLE DOWN
These peanuts don't understand what an economy means
To be successful money needs to flow so it creates , not sitting in a account , not sitting in existing property pushing up prices
it was as per labour policy when immigrating to places that need support not given priority access to our largest cities cause they come with illicit cash
At least Howard understood this with his buy a vote baby bonus
Quick facts
They have Wrecked the housing market with negative gearing and now APRA is cracking down on interest only loans which is stifling commercial property development
Now in 2 years all will need refinance , all will need LMI insurance which is owned by o/s interests as they won't have 20% equity
A lot will be sold and a crash WILL occur
But like the recent global financial crisis , labour will SAVE our bacon
As no doubt it will occur when the WRECKERS are out
Then of course we will get a blatant attack by the Murdoch press as the runs are on the board over 30 years
Oh by the way , you prefer our banks and mining being owned by overseas interests , loving 29c per tonne royalties, no tax
The Darwin port , power?
Conservatives sold it all
Idea
Spend the 3.8 billion on this
Now what about re tooling our existing factories to electric tesla cars
In 4 years ban all non electric cars and subsidise everyone 3k per year of licence to get one
You know it's very very obvious
You know we are a CONTINENT
and I believe we are alone in that respect
Instead of detaining people , give em a chance value add open up australia by building 2 cities ( like china)
Most immigrants are now from arid climates and are suited
Export to asia and subsidise change overs
Become THE COUNTRY of food and water and export as well
We waste money and the 75 billion cAn be spent much more beneficially

for a start you have bought into Labor's lie that property prices have gone up due to negative gearing. Treasury has already stated the negative gearing policy will not cause a big property crash..........as it didn't cause the price hike.

the issue has been foreign investment into property!


Labor also wrecked much of the marginal large scale businesses during the GFC through the over stimulus. Ths caused the FX to go through the roof leading to the closure of many businesses and ceased project plans of others. This was attested to the "Ken Henry(?)" what is the worst outcome of the potential GFC.........Ken Henry's response was "there is a lot to consider before you think of the worst outcome. Rudd's response was "no, tell me the worst" and then rolled out the stimulus based on that. The cost of Rudd saving Australia from something that didn't eventuate was billions in debt, a structural debt, the loss of important industry and the loss of important projects.

We will pay for Rudd's and Labor's mistake for three or four generations. Oh and the poor and middle class will wear the brunt of that burden. Including kids, who weren't born when the "wheel of fortune cash give away, pink bats or the digital set top box revolution" occurred, will be paying that debt off.

 

[Darkyprotector]

for a start you have bought into Labor's lie that property prices have gone up due to negative gearing.

No that's wrong as per treasury advice refer the locked cabinet papers
MORRISON LIED

Treasury has already stated the negative gearing policy will not cause a big property crash..........as it didn't cause the price hike.

the issue has been foreign investment into property!

You are getting there ,my discussion is interest ONLY LOANS, propped up by negative gearing


Labor also wrecked much of the marginal large scale businesses during the GFC through the over stimulus. Ths caused the FX to go through the roof leading to the closure of many businesses and ceased project plans of others. This was attested to the "Ken Henry(?)" what is the worst outcome of the potential GFC.........Ken Henry's response was "there is a lot to consider before you think of the worst outcome. Rudd's response was "no, tell me the worst" and then rolled out the stimulus based on that. The cost of Rudd saving Australia from something that didn't eventuate was billions in debt, a structural debt, the loss of important industry and the loss of important projects.

Look up history , drive past a school call it stimulus I call it a basic need
We will pay for Rudd's and Labor's mistake for three or four generations.
Well we will now with I've brought the leadership mal and born again liar scott

Oh and the poor and middle class will wear the brunt of that burden.
AND WHAT'S NEW

Including kids, who weren't born when the "wheel of fortune cash give away, pink bats or the digital set top box revolution" occurred, will be paying that debt off.

Bit like giving away our mineral wealth , wasting money on wars and tax cuts for o/s owned companies that don't pay tax
Won't matter later their all doomed anyway ,
CLIMATE CHANGE will get us all, before the conservatives do

 

[Darkyprotector]

I hope you took a breath during all of that! Quite the manifesto... There are far too many things here for me to address so I'll focus on the ones where I have direct, industry based knowledge.

Can you please show me either the financial modelling or taxation reports that show mining companies are paying 29c royalties and no tax (on a consistent basis - there will always be examples of this occurring in specific periods)? If it were the case that they were paying no tax they would be out of business (or heading in that direction) as it means they are not making any money. Yes royalties are tax deductible but that is no different to any other business expense, I don't know how people have some much difficulty reconciling this issue.

I thought we put the debate about automotive subsidies to bed yesterday but obviously not. How much will be required to subsidise the re-tooling of plants and banning of non-electric vehicles? Let's re-ignite an industry that we found to be uncompetitive in the global economy! We sell over 1 million new cars per year in Australia, using your $3k subsidy as an example the $3.8 billion that you refer to would be eaten up in 2 years!

In relation to the property market it sounds to me like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too... You propose removing the benefits associated with negative gearing to drive prices down and make the market more accessible but go on to say that we are destined for disaster with refinancing causing a property sell off... Isn't lower prices exactly what you are asking for?

What value will be added by these new cities? What are the industries that we can be commercially competitive in that are so under resourced at present that we can generate such incremental market share to justify the expenditure? I'd be happy to debate the merits of them but "build it and they will come" isn't an economically pragmatic, or logical, one.

The 29c fiasco come out during the last state election
And was recieved with the contempt it deserved

 

[Darkyprotector]

I hope you took a breath during all of that! Quite the manifesto... There are far too many things here for me to address so I'll focus on the ones where I have direct, industry based knowledge.

Can you please show me either the financial modelling or taxation reports that show mining companies are paying 29c royalties and no tax (on a consistent basis - there will always be examples of this occurring in specific periods)? If it were the case that they were paying no tax they would be out of business (or heading in that direction) as it means they are not making any money. Yes royalties are tax deductible but that is no different to any other business expense, I don't know how people have some much difficulty reconciling this issue.

I thought we put the debate about automotive subsidies to bed yesterday but obviously not. How much will be required to subsidise the re-tooling of plants and banning of non-electric vehicles? Let's re-ignite an industry that we found to be uncompetitive in the global economy! We sell over 1 million new cars per year in Australia, using your $3k subsidy as an example the $3.8 billion that you refer to would be eaten up in 2 years!

In relation to the property market it sounds to me like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too... You propose removing the benefits associated with negative gearing to drive prices down and make the market more accessible but go on to say that we are destined for disaster with refinancing causing a property sell off... Isn't lower prices exactly what you are asking for?

What value will be added by these new cities? What are the industries that we can be commercially competitive in that are so under resourced at present that we can generate such incremental market share to justify the expenditure? I'd be happy to debate the merits of them but "build it and they will come" isn't an economically pragmatic, or logical, one.

You're an expert in this, know much about Profit distribution in the real world
Glencor?
You realise that if 10 houses are for sale in every street , value will decrease , real fair on the aussie dream who looses it all
You've never heard of value adding , you'll rather "STOP THE BOATS" and spend how much doing it for what?
Empathy ?
Lets put the 30 billion to use hey, all we get at present is a divided country
Grow food ,can it send it iN aid instead of cash
Sell to the world and develop the CONTINENT

 

[Carn The Berries]

You're an expert in this, know much about Epcot distribution
Glencor?

Expert? No. Good understanding of the financial mechanics of the local automotive and mining sectors due to being employed in both? Yes.

If you can direct me to the evidence that supports your claim I'm more than happy to look at it but I certainly haven't seen anything that supports the supposition that there are (any) mining companies that pay a 29 cent royalty and no other taxation which is what you are claiming.

 

[Power Raid]

Bit like giving away our mineral wealth , wasting money on wars and tax cuts for o/s owned companies that don't pay tax
Won't matter later their all doomed anyway ,
CLIMATE CHANGE will get us all, before the conservatives do

meth?

 

[Power Raid]

Expert? No. Good understanding of the financial mechanics of the local automotive and mining sectors due to being employed in both? Yes.

If you can direct me to the evidence that supports your claim I'm more than happy to look at it but I certainly haven't seen anything that supports the supposition that there are (any) mining companies that pay a 29 cent royalty and no other taxation which is what you are claiming.

It’s quite frustrating to hear when people get deceived by politicians, “trusted” lobby groups and the media.

You often hear ridiculous tax rates and royalty rates quoted. But sadly too many are deceived even though it doesn’t pass a reasonableness quote.

 

[Carn The Berries]

You're an expert in this, know much about Profit distribution in the real world
Glencor?
You realise that if 10 houses are for sale in every street , value will decrease , real fair on the aussie dream who looses it all
You've never heard of value adding , you'll rather "STOP THE BOATS" and spend how much doing it for what?
Empathy ?
Lets put the 30 billion to use hey, all we get at present is a divided country
Grow food ,can it send it iN aid instead of cash
Sell to the world and develop the CONTINENT

I'm am more than aware of the effects of supply and demand... And the fact that tightening the regulation of negative gearing will do exactly that... I pointed out the contradictory nature of your stance when you first brought up the property market. In fact the entire premise of your argument (that investors are freezing out owner-occupiers from the market) means that prices HAVE TO GO DOWN to correct the imbalance that you perceive. How do you suggest this situation can be resolved without forcing prices down?

As for value adding, given I have worked my entire career in the private sector if I wasn't value adding I'd be unemployed...

 

[Darkyprotector]

I'm am more than aware of the effects of supply and demand... And the fact that tightening the regulation of negative gearing will do exactly that... I pointed out the contradictory nature of your stance when you first brought up the property market. In fact the entire premise of your argument (that investors are freezing out owner-occupiers from the market) means that prices HAVE TO GO DOWN to correct the imbalance that you perceive. How do you suggest this situation can be resolved without forcing prices down?

As for value adding, given I have worked my entire career in the private sector if I wasn't value adding I'd be unemployed...

I'm suggesting that the fear is the ability of so called mum and dads investors seduced by interest only loans who are ALL. About to get shock
Irresponsible lending practices pal
If you don't have 20% equity you're forced into LMI
If no capital gains are recieved , and people can't get finance ( refer states ) same s**t is likely to happen again so we won't have to do anything
Value adding pal you know zip

 

[Chief]

Union power in my (potentially misinformed) view seems stifled by the Liberals constant tarring of a minority of heavy handed union organizers as "union thugs", which is also eagerly portrayed by conservative newspapers like the daily telegraph.

It seems the Unions message that workers rights are undermined gets lost in the labeling and name calling of a few rogue unionists.

Care to comment?

Yeah but when you know a person who was basically held against his will by three union thugs until he signed a union application form, it all starts to look pretty sordid.

 

[Carn The Berries]

I'm suggesting that the fear is the ability of so called mum and dads investors seduced by interest only loans who are ALL. About to get shock
Irresponsible lending practices pal
If you don't have 20% equity you're forced into LMI
If no capital gains are recieved , and people can't get finance ( refer states ) same s**t is likely to happen again so we won't have to do anything
Value adding pal you know zip

Where is the irresponsibility on the part of "Mum & Dad" investors who are not fully aware/prepared for a change in the conditions of their loan? I'm getting sick and tired of people absolving themselves of responsibility for not understanding what they are getting into. You don't need to have too much financial savvy to understand that if you leverage yourself to the back teeth and can only just make your mortgage repayments (interest only of course) when rates are at historical lows then you're going to be well and truly pushing it up a hill once you have to actually start paying the thing back and interest rates rise.

I'm still none the wiser as to your actual position, do you think that the property market is overvalued and that the government should intervene to put downward pressure on prices? You're warning of this burning platform but advocating for it at the same time???

 

[TimmeT]

Find it interesting that after the major fuss and complaining from unions and pro union persons after the overturned Sydney train Strike that the right to strike is gone that there have been no comment from them regarding the airport strike today. As expected the unions were simply telling fairytales about the fact that the right to strike no longer exists

 

[nobbyiscool]

Find it interesting that after the major fuss and complaining from unions and pro union persons after the overturned Sydney train Strike that the right to strike is gone that there have been no comment from them regarding the airport strike today. As expected the unions were simply telling fairytales about the fact that the right to strike no longer exists

So one example is symbolic of the whole?

You'd be an amazing scientist