Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

[Geelong_Sicko]

You don't ever position yourself as the 'good guy' by removing a specific group's human rights.

Again, just because we find their beliefs abhorrent, doesn't mean everyone else does unfortunately.

As I said in an earlier post, being being violent toward and/or removing their rights as a human, you remove any chance of redemption for these people because they will double down and look to grow their group even further.

There's already laws against Nazi paraphernalia and salutes in Australia, so it's not an issue here, as they will be dealt with the law accordingly, as evidenced by those Croatian soccer club morons posting themselves doing a Nazi salute in Geelong a few days ago.

Also, you appear to be saying that I'm suggesting it should be 'tolerated', I'm not. I'm saying you can NEVER remove someone's human, constitutional and judicial rights and convince everyone you're the 'good guys'.

You pick 'one' group, watch it be applied to every group. An emboldened majority will do this to any minority group they don't like in future. It's human nature.

The bolded is a fair point, and it has happened before. You can remove such groups at the very least from participating in Australian Democracy as a whole though. Any group that stands for the removal of the human rights of one ethnic group or religious group or race has no business being asked to participate in our democracy.

I'd suggest police have unofficial 'look the other way' directives when an anti-human rights group gets stomped by a pro-human rights group and a 'come down hard' directive if the Far Right ever got the upper hand. Even if that meant they'd be beating some of their own!

We need to have a Bill of Rights, really. A sorting screen.

 

[bzparkes]

The bolded is a fair point, and it has happened before. You can remove such groups at the very least from participating in Australian Democracy as a whole though. Any group that stands for the removal of the human rights of one ethnic group or religious group or race has no business being asked to participate in our democracy.

Yes, thank you for actually understanding my point on this.

Whether we agree with them or not, removing someone else's rights is just enabling the same behaviour we say we disagree with.

I'd suggest police have unofficial 'look the other way' directives when an anti-human rights group gets stomped by a pro-human rights group and a 'come down hard' directive if the Far Right ever got the upper hand. Even if that meant they'd be beating some of their own!

We need to have a Bill of Rights, really. A sorting screen.

No issue with this myself but again, if people are blatantly breaking the law to push their political opinion(whatever it is) then they need to be held accountable.

That's how a civilized society remains civilized.

 

[CM86]

Whether we agree with them or not

Most of us disagree, you do you.

removing someone else's rights is just enabling the same behaviour we say we disagree with.

No.
And it's so easy to make you cede this point, by pushing you on a position that you know you cannot defend.

Pedophilia.
Pedophiles should have no rights to their thoughts or positions, because of the actions that they can lead to.
You agree with this, everyone does.
No one wants to even protect the concept of them having a right to thoughts and opinions, because of the real world harm that comes from their thoughts and opinions.

There's a reason people will defend the thoughts and positions of neo-Nazis. And it isn't some aspect of free speech, it's always because part of them supports the aspect of neo-Nazism.

 

[faible]

Neo-Nazis WANT to remove human rights though. This is no mere ideological disagreement. Your argument may apply for many other standpoints but not one where one group actively wants the removal of ethnicities and races not their own.

Tolerate THAT and say goodbye to a harmonious multicultural Australia.
Tolerate THAT and it will lead to untold and flagrant human rights violations.
Tolerate THAT and it will lead to the death of all idea of tolerance in society.

Isn't it called the paradox of tolerance?

 

[Chief]

You do realise that once you make an 'exception' then it's you who becomes the person facilitating the removal of human rights from persons, groups or the removal of them entirely from society.

That's an incredibly dangerous thought process.

No it isn't.

No tolerance for intolerance. It's fine. It's how we should be.

 

[bzparkes]

No it isn't.

No tolerance for intolerance. It's fine. It's how we should be.

That's very intolerant of you.

 

[CM86]

That's very intolerant of you.

Not as bad as neo-Nazism...

Tolerating an actively intolerant community, leads to intolerance.

You need to pretend to be super autistic and with no grasp on nuance, to understand why declaring war against Hitler's Germany is actually a good thing.
Instead of just insisting that all war is bad, therefore war against literal Nazis is bad...

 

[Gough]

That's very intolerant of you.

Would you describe history's judgement of Nazis as intolerant.

 

[bzparkes]

Would you describe history's judgement of Nazis as intolerant.

I would judge it as fair, they did heinous things after all.

Judgement and treatment are very different things though.

If you support violence and the removal of human rights against Nazis, then how are you any different?

You don't change hearts and minds by inflicting violence towards other groups you disagree with, you make it worse.

You can't advocate for violence against a group you disagree with. Period.

 

[CM86]

I would judge it as fair, they did heinous things after all.

Judgement and treatment are very different things though.

If you support violence and the removal of human rights against Nazis, then how are you any different?

You don't change hearts and minds by inflicting violence towards other groups you disagree with, you make it worse.

You can't advocate for violence against a group you disagree with. Period.

Can you make the same argument for pedophiles or Islamic terrorists, as you do for neo-Nazis.

When you can't, will you pause to consider if it's the movement you support, not the platitudes you're preaching?

 

[Gough]

I would judge it as fair, they did heinous things after all.

Judgement and treatment are very different things though.

If you support violence and the removal of human rights against Nazis, then how are you any different?

You don't change hearts and minds by inflicting violence towards other groups you disagree with, you make it worse.

You can't advocate for violence against a group you disagree with. Period.

If you judge it as fair then surely you'd agree that a whack a mole approach to modern Nazis would be the best way of dealing with them to avoid a repeat of that history.

 

[bzparkes]

If you judge it as fair then surely you'd agree that a whack a mole approach to modern Nazis would be the best way of dealing with them to avoid a repeat of that history.

Not with violence and restricting their human rights, no.

That's exactly what they did to groups they didn't like themselves, after all.

I mean, if they're being violent, then sure.

If other people are instigating violence towards them, presuming they're not being violent themselves, then they're no different.

 

[CM86]

If you judge it as fair then surely you'd agree that a whack a mole approach to modern Nazis would be the best way of dealing with them to avoid a repeat of that history.

You've missed the most important part.

They're talking about what they 'DID'.
As in

Yes, now that they've DONE this, we should be active against them... maybe.​

They're saying that they are fully supportive of the movements up to and during... but that there should be (((maybe))) some consequences for their actions.

 

[Gough]

Not with violence and restricting their human rights, no.

That's exactly what they did to groups they didn't like themselves, after all.

I mean, if they're being violent, then sure.

If other people are instigating violence towards them, presuming they're not being violent themselves, then they're no different.

We know they want to inflict extreme violence on certain sections of society, shouldn't we try to knock that on the head?

 

[CM86]

I mean, if they're being violent, then sure.

Perfect example Gough.


When they've been violent, you can now respond. But you cannot do anything to reduce their access to perpetrating that violence, because 'tolerance'.

 

[bzparkes]

We know they want to inflict extreme violence on certain sections of society, shouldn't we try to knock that on the head?

Are we the thought police?

Where does it end?

Round up all Muslims, because we know that there's a heap of anti-Israel/Jew sentiment in their community, or do they get a free pass?

Arrest Northern Irish people, because they actively hate Protestant English and have inflicted violence on them before, or is it the other way around?

If they're not breaking any laws, how can you propose to punish them?

Here in Australia, there's laws against Nazi paraphernalia/actions, such as saluting. Let the law deal with it but unless they're not breaking nay laws, you can't punish people for something they haven't done, unless you have evidence that they are actively planning to do something, which is against the law.

I'm not suggesting you ignore them, for sure they need a tight leash, but you can't punish people for things they haven't done.

Real life isn't Minority Report.

 

[Gralin]

Can't believe you lot are still taking the bait

 

[CM86]

We know they want to inflict extreme violence on certain sections of society, shouldn't we try to knock that on the head?

Just remember, this kind of person tries to share your real name and last known living location, because you're a homosexual and disagreed with a freo mod.

If you're looking to engage with logic, you've already lost.

 

[CM86]

Round up all Muslims, because we know that there's a heap of anti-Israel/Jew sentiment in their community, or do they get a free pass?

 

[kranky al]

 

[kranky al]

Are we the thought police?

Where does it end?

Round up all Muslims, because we know that there's a heap of anti-Israel/Jew sentiment in their community, or do they get a free pass?

mate here’s the thing.

Some muslims believe this some that and some the other.

All Nazis believe the same stuff. There isn’t good Nazis, average Nazis and bad ones.

There’s just Nazis

 

[bzparkes]

mate here’s the thing.

Some muslims believe this some that and some the other.

All Nazis believe the same stuff. There isn’t good Nazis, average Nazis and bad ones.

There’s just Nazis

So if some Muslims believe it, do you round those ones up?

We're going in a direction I don't really want to but the fact of the matter is, you can't arrest people for their thoughts, nor can you be violent toward them.

To suggest it's fine because you believe you are in the right is utterly wrong.

 

[kranky al]

So if some Muslims believe it, do you round those ones up?

We're going in a direction I don't really want to but the fact of the matter is, you can't arrest people for their thoughts, nor can you be violent toward them.

To suggest it's fine because you believe you are in the right is utterly wrong.

I don’t suggest rounding them up but a flying headbutt sure does take the edge off some funquit who thinks his religion / ideology means he gets to kill others that don’t share it.

And I won’t lose a moments sleep over it.

These people aren’t debating you mate. The very second they have power, you are either with them, on your way to whatever the new Russian front is - or comprising part of a bar of soap.

 

[bzparkes]

I don’t suggest rounding them up but a flying headbutt sure does take the edge off some funquit who thinks his religion / ideology means he gets to kill others that don’t share it.

And I won’t lose a moments sleep over it.

These people aren’t debating you mate. The very second they have power, you are either with them, on your way to whatever the new Russian front is - or comprising part of a bar of soap.

Well, good thing they're a small minority then and in Australia, we have laws to combat it.

You'd be headbutting a hell of a lot more people than just 'Nazis' if that's your stance though.

 

[kranky al]

Well, good thing they're a small minority then and in Australia, we have laws to combat it.

You'd be headbutting a hell of a lot more people than just 'Nazis' if that's your stance though.

Delivering the perfect head butt is a skill that is perfected over time and many Nazis.

One Grandad used to shoot em out of the sky. The other used to call artillery in to them and chop them into hamburger. Great uncles shot, stabbed and blew them up.

At what stage did we stop thinking this was a good idea and that we should chat nicely with them?

This is not like arguing with someone on the other side of politics who thinks differently to you but wants good things for the country - you just disagree on how to get there - these are turd rollers who think whole races should be liquidated. Theres nothing to debate with those people. Target front, engage.