eth-dog
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The crux for me is to find great opening partnerships in combination with individual averages. Hayden and Langer were so good together. As were Lawry and Simson reportedly.
Warner and where is he amongst great openers
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eth-dog
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Openers are unique. Tell me, would you rather two blokes who average 50 opening the batting but average 35 as a partnership, or two blokes averaging 45 that average 55 as an opening partnership.
Greenidge and Haynes are the classic example of this. Neither had outstanding averages but they were the best combination in the world at the time.
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I'd have both Hayden and Langer comfortably ahead of Warner, and on par with Slater. Certainly not top 10. I don't rate occasionally hitting a hundred that takes a game away from players over consistency and ability to adapt.
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That was an amazing series from Hayden but he was never able to consistently replicate that adaptability.
If you consider an average of 40 a pass mark for a series, he only hit that mark on 4 of 12 overseas multi-test series including none of his last 6 tours, and he failed in two other single test matches he played overseas. Failed in both English Ashes series he played. It took a little while but I think teams worked him out a little bit, but the Australian roads didn't allow them to exploit the issues he had with his footwork.
Still one of Australia's great openers. We don't have many with a 50+ average, and he isn't as home track bully as Dave Warner. But he does have quite a significant difference between home and away. Also that ridiculous innings against Zimbabwe adds nearly a full 2 runs (1.95) to his average.
But when talking about where you rate one batsman its about his quality and abilities.
Talking about opening pairs is a different conversion.
Woodfull and Ponsford both averaged over 50.
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Before Warner scores another rampant SCG ton (he's scored a ton in each of the last three Sydney Tests, going at an average strike rate of 107.69 in those innings), though I'd get in with the career numbers for our best openers (when opening, as Davey has had a few innings where he didn't open, and Langer had a large number as well).
Like it or not, Warner stacks up to the best, and he may have another 4-5 years to go. If he surpasses Hayden in longevity/average/centuries, people would have to give him serious consideration as the best.
Really unsure how his lack of a long-term partnership (Lawry/Simpson, Hayden/Langer, Taylor/Slater) affects his standing, but that's not necessarily his fault. You could maybe put Chris Rogers there, as he's been the best of the other openers we've tried since Warner's Test debut, and they did very well as a pair (average opening partnership of 51.32), but they probably didn't really have enough longevity together to be considered a great duo like others (although surprisingly, their average together is comparable to Hayden/Langer and Taylor/Slater, and they scored just as many tons together as Lawry/Simpson).
Like it or not, Warner stacks up to the best, and he may have another 4-5 years to go. If he surpasses Hayden in longevity/average/centuries, people would have to give him serious consideration as the best.
Really unsure how his lack of a long-term partnership (Lawry/Simpson, Hayden/Langer, Taylor/Slater) affects his standing, but that's not necessarily his fault. You could maybe put Chris Rogers there, as he's been the best of the other openers we've tried since Warner's Test debut, and they did very well as a pair (average opening partnership of 51.32), but they probably didn't really have enough longevity together to be considered a great duo like others (although surprisingly, their average together is comparable to Hayden/Langer and Taylor/Slater, and they scored just as many tons together as Lawry/Simpson).
Demosthenes
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Great batsman if you only watch cricket between November and January. Otherwise, not so much.
Marcus DuQuesne
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Interesting the averages of Greenidge and Haynes. Low to mid 40's however different era with different bats and field sizes. I would rate both of these guys above Warner as openers. The modern game has skewed averages as it favors the bat ahead of the ball...Modern Bats and Smaller grounds add about 10 runs to a good players average. This means G and H would both average in the 50's today. Steve Smith likewise would be a 55 average yesteryear. Drop in pitches and the absolute roads prepared for cricket these days aid the batters. There are other factors but that's enough for now.
I agree bat sizes and the things you mentioned have changed things dramatically, but surely there's also an allowance for having to face bowlers who are now professional athletes and can maintain their pace all day along with being able to watch hundreds of hours of video on any batsman they like and study all their favoured scoring zones, etc.
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Stats don't suggest that those effects add 10 runs to a good players average. More like ~4 or 5 runs max
Anyone have stats on how often he scores tons in dead rubbers? Seems to have a lot of them..
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Hayden is far and away better than Warner and would slot highly on that list IMO.
Warner's average flatters him. Hayden and I'd argue Langer were superior players to Davey. Love a flat track ton does Warner, and as previously mentioned, pitches these days are made for those five day tests.
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Posted stats in the boxing day thread regarding increase in averages now compared to historical eras. About 6.5% increase which equates to about 3.25 runs for the top level of batsmen.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/boxing-day-test-2017.1184140/page-245#post-53859404
Broke it down by top 6 batsmen, and #7's and below here:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/boxing-day-test-2017.1184140/page-245#post-53863923
Definitely a bias towards modern day batsmen but not quite as strong as a lot of people will tell you - the biggest factor keeping scoring from blowing out IMO is the standard of fielding and how much better it is. DRS and the occasional D/N test helping bowlers as well. Everything else in in the favour of batsmen. Bigger, stronger bats, short boundaries, bowling talent low*, flat pitches.
* I do believe over the next couple of year we are about to come into a period of strong quick bowling talent which should be fun to watch.
Marcus DuQuesne
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Stats do not tell the full story...outs made where batters were caught on the fence are now six. My 10 runs was arbitrary number ..but the point is the bias towards batters changes a lot of the dynamics. Sure bowlers are more professional and better trained etc. but this does not make them "better" bowlers per se. No doubt Video study of players is used more often and all players at the top level have access to it. In any sport at the top level bowlers and batters are adjusting to each other all the time..on a day by day basis in a test series. Baseball has examples of changing bats and ball to level out the game when it gets out of sync. Cricket which is a bat and ball game has the same issues...getting the balance right. Currently the balance is not there and only the micky mouse test in Adelaide evens things out.
ROFL. I would say Langer on par with Slater, Hayden better than both of them, and Warner very nearly on par with Hayden. Very few players could bully/dominate a bowling attack like a Hayden could. I mean walking down the pitch to fast bowlers to get the ball on the half volley and smash it over the infield for 4 - how many players do you see doing that?
Hayden > warner > slater/langer
Definitely cashes in at home but if that’s his biggest flaw while averaging 48 and smashing 20-30 hundreds I’ll take it.
Without him at the top of the order I’d hate to see where we’d be.
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Without him at the top of the order I’d hate to see where we’d be.
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4 of Warner's 21 test tons have come in dead rubbers. As for Steve Smith, 8 of his 23 test centuries have come in dead rubbers. The link below is an article from December 28. As of then, Steve Smith's dead rubber century record was 7 dead rubber centuries from 22.
More stats on this topic: https://www.foxsports.com.au/cricke...d/news-story/235ad82303b02461a246d2be197dc255
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Nah, he's more one for bashing a century in friendly batting conditions or when Australia are already ahead in a match - not necessarily in dead rubbers (though the MCG century was).
Probably his first two centuries and his Bangladeshi centuries are exceptions to the rule.
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It seems like his gamestyle has changed. Strike rate seems to be a lot lower and I think he's done the right thing to set himself up for overseas better. Hoping the scores against Bangladesh were signs of things to come.
