Analysis Where are we actually at as a club?

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MordySaint

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Jun 2, 2012
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I'm not taking anything to heart. You opened the conversation with me. You told me what I was saying was incorrect. It isn't, the information is out there. You can have an opinion but understand when your opinion is just incorrect. Factually incorrect. You have said;

* We are a top 5 supported club in Melbourne (We are 6th in Melbourne, 7th in Victoria).

* The administration has disenfranchised it's supporters (yet we've broken our club membership in each of the last 5 seasons - two of them in seasons with no crowds).

* We've pandered to the AFL (whilst completely disregarding the financial position and favoritism by way of the fixture of the clubs you said didn't pander - Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, and disregarding the comparisons between stadium deals/revenue).

* Insinuating we need to bring in a former player to coach us because it worked once (whilst leaving out 29 other former players that have coached us and ultimately failed, not to mention the history league wide of some of the greatest coaches ever not having played at the club they won premierships for - Clarkson, Hardwick, Malthouse, Matthews).

* One side in the last 10 years have won a premiership without a standalone side (It's actually 5 of the last 10).

* Saying that our partnership with Sandringham is completely different to basically part ownership that Hawthorn and Melbourne have (It actually is, we signed a deal with Sandringham a few years ago as they were on their knees ready to fold. New deal gave us basic ownership of the club. Melbourne have had a very public disconnect between themselves and Casey - it is not all rosy)

* Claiming in a year or two Melbourne and Hawthorn will merge their VFL affiliates with their own standalone club (They have been affiliated for 22 and 13 years respectively, if they were to do it it'd be done already. If Hawthorn wouldn't do it after winning 4 flags under Clarkson then why do it now).


There's one thing I have agreed with you on over the last few days and I have told you I agreed. The stuff above is just wrong. Not opinion, just flat out wrong. I'm happy to keep the conversation going - you wanted to open up dialogue with me and I am happy to respond, but when you make factually incorrect statements then I'll say it. You say it's your opinion but you are speaking as if it's fact. It just isn't.
Hi George,

I know you like to hang on every word I post, look for errors in logic. Then use it to discredit... fine

I asked you about my boys memberships being used to inflate our record membership - your response was "if someone pays the $50 then who cares"

Our boys get membership cards, with a membership number, member packs, backpacks, free entry to a few games... guess what I didn't pay the $50. But who cares if they get a member number and they are added to our "record" tally.

I made a comment about our affiliation with Sandringham and asked why we flip flopped on our promise to have a standalone. I unfortunately made the error in thinking Melbourne and Hawthorn had standalone (when they looked like they did) ... so you discredited me on that angle

I'm not sure I was insinuating about Allan Jeans as coach, when he coached a family member of mine.
 

George

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Aug 17, 2015
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Hi George,

I know you like to hang on every word I post, look for errors in logic. Then use it to discredit... fine
You wanted to discuss football with me and I corrected the things you said that were factually incorrect.

I asked you about my boys memberships being used to inflate our record membership - your response was "if someone pays the $50 then who cares" Our boys get membership cards, with a membership number, member packs, backpacks, free entry to a few games... guess what I didn't pay the $50. But who cares if they get a member number and they are added to our "record" tally.
You are good at making up stuff. Few days of just blatant mistruths , one after the other, and now misquoting what I said. Let's see what I actually said.

If they don't pay $50 a year for a membership they are not counted towards the membership figures. And if someone is paying $50 a year to be included in a membership tally, who cares how they became members.
Yeah, I've just explained it to you. If you are paying $50 a year to the club directly for a membership then they are included. If you aren't it doesn't count.
It's simple. If the membership cost $50, it goes towards the tally. If it cost less, it doesn't. My comment regarding "who cares" was in reference to your comment downplaying our record membership by giving an example of how "easy" it is to be counted a member, when you had no idea in the first place what it took to be counted as one. And you've done it again, putting record in quotations. We have actually broke membership in every season of the last 5. That's a fact.

I'm not sure I was insinuating about Allan Jeans as coach, when he coached a family member of mine.
I don't see any other angle to take your post that said we'd have zero premierships if we didn't hire a guy who used to play for us. To me you are insinuating that that's what it'll take to be successful. It won't. The best available candidate will.
 

MordySaint

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And if someone is paying $50 a year to be included in a membership tally, who cares how they became members.
How is that misquoting you? Who is someone? I am not paying it.

You say they are not added to the tally, well they get a "membership" number.... Maybe the club has multiple databases, one for those that have member numbers which are not counted and one for ones which are.

We get the emails saying "Hello member", I am just putting 1 + 1 together

You are the one who brought up member numbers to clarify my thoughts about how strong a club we were. I was talking core base (which I understand is very subjective)
 

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George

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Aug 17, 2015
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How is that misquoting you? Who is someone? I am not paying it.

You say they are not added to the tally, well they get a "membership" number.... Maybe the club has multiple databases, one for those that have member numbers which are counted and one for ones which are.

We get the emails saying "Hello member", I am just putting 1 + 1 together

You are the one who brought up member numbers to clarify my thoughts about how strong a club we were. I was talking core base (which I understand is very subjective)
Someone meaning anyone other than you.

Yes, you can be a member without being part of the tally. There are members who are not counted because they didn't pay $50 or over for it.

Yes core base is subjective. What isn't subjective are membership figures. Clubs are not built on the back of supporters, they are built on the back of members. It's a better example of the strength of a football club because just being a supporter has little to no bearing on key decisions at the club or people and sponsors a club can attract.
 

MordySaint

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Someone meaning anyone other than you.

Yes, you can be a member without being part of the tally. There are members who are not counted because they didn't pay $50 or over for it.

Yes core base is subjective. What isn't subjective are membership figures. Clubs are not built on the back of supporters, they are built on the back of members. It's a better example of the strength of a football club because just being a supporter has little to no bearing on key decisions at the club or people and sponsors a club can attract.
Thank you George, I'm not here for a fight.

I just want my club to be successful.
 

George

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Thank you George, I'm not here for a fight.

I just want my club to be successful.
It's not healthy to perpetuate mistruths about our football club. I try and provide correct information and post it so people don't get the wrong impression of our situation. I fear people will believe the stuff you've said and we lose support because they think things may be worse than they are. We need to assess our situation objectively with the facts that are available to us. We won't know everything but we surely can know enough to make better informed opinions. That's all this ever was.
 

MordySaint

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It's not healthy to perpetuate mistruths about our football club. I try and provide correct information and post it so people don't get the wrong impression of our situation. I fear people will believe the stuff you've said and we lose support because they think things may be worse than they are. We need to assess our situation objectively with the facts that are available to us. We won't know everything but we surely can know enough to make better informed opinions. That's all this ever was.
All I was trying to do was discuss

  • How we got here
  • Where we are at
  • How we can move forward

What I have said from the start these are my thoughts alone and my opinion is no more important than anyone else on this forum.
 

George

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All I was trying to do was discuss

  • How we got here
  • Where we are at
  • How we can move forward

What I have said from the start these are my thoughts alone and my opinion is no more important than anyone else on this forum.
And that's fine, just that you started dialogue with me and I felt the need to reply with the correct information for reasons I mentioned above. It's probably annoying but I'd hate for someone to think differently about the club based on some of the stuff posted here by you or anyone for that matter.

If the club is doing a sh*t job with no underlying explanation and data to back it up then go hell for leather. Definitely criticise if it's warranted. The best discussions on here are always the ones with real analysis IMO.
 

Ephemeral Hope

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Apr 24, 2021
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It’s interesting that coaches from outside the club BECOME legends of the club in their own right once they’re there. Clarko had no connection to Hawthorn but I doubt he bleeds anything other than piss and sh*t right now. We should be taking in successful players coaches and making them love St Kilda. Make sure that their former teams are just footnotes in history
 

jwint43

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Aug 17, 2014
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Where are we at? While we like to refer as ourselves as a sleeping giant we'll never be seen as a big club because we don't have a single marquee fixture. Whether that's our fault for lack of initiative or the 'big clubs' getting looked after is up for debate. I've come to accept this reality :(
 

jwikked

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Sep 20, 2009
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How is that misquoting you? Who is someone? I am not paying it.

You say they are not added to the tally, well they get a "membership" number.... Maybe the club has multiple databases, one for those that have member numbers which are not counted and one for ones which are.

We get the emails saying "Hello member", I am just putting 1 + 1 together

You are the one who brought up member numbers to clarify my thoughts about how strong a club we were. I was talking core base (which I understand is very subjective)
I think it was Adelaide a few years ago touted a membership number that wasn't backed up by the AFL figure. They were quoting all members regardless of whether it was paid or not. Officially, AFL Memberships count if it's to the value of $50 or more. So you can have a membership card with a membership number, but not count to the official membership tally. Or maybe it does, if a sponsor is paying the cost for those freebies, but ultimately it's $50 and up. A pet membership for $51 counts.
 

Joffaboy

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I was worried about the direction of this thread, but am pretty pleased now. Should be renamed 'Where are we actually at as a club - Myths Busted, Untruths corrected'

Glad the naysayers and the ignorant aren't getting a free run at bagging the sh*t out of the club.

Sure the club has issues, one flag in a million years is proof positive of that, but as far as I can see the club is in a very good position off field, maybe the best I have seen it. Unless off field is right, onfield never will win a flag.

By all means critisise the club, but please be factual, except of course recruiting, that is all and will only ever be opinion.
 
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Stan_Darsh72

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Jun 18, 2011
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I was worried about the direction of this thread, but am pretty pleased now. Should be renamed 'Where are we actually as as a club - Myths Busted, Untruths corrected'

Glad the naysayers and the ignorant aren't getting a free run at bagging the sh*t out of the club.

Sure the club has issues, one flag in a million years is proof positive of that, but as far as I can see the club is in a very good position off field, maybe the best I have seen it. Unless off field is right, onfield never will win a flag.

By all means critisise the club, but please be factual, except of course recruiting, that is all and will only ever be opinion.
Compared to 2017 this Club is in a far better place.

As you said off field we are in one of our best positions, Our recruiting has been quite good at getting talent, The playing list has been rebuilt on the run and we know that the recruiting staff can find gems with later picks.
 

MordySaint

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Jun 2, 2012
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Compared to 2017 this Club is in a far better place.

As you said off field we are in one of our best positions, Our recruiting has been quite good at getting talent, The playing list has been rebuilt on the run and we know that the recruiting staff can find gems with later picks.
Agree with this, well and truly in a better place than 2017.

We can build a premiership team around King, we didn't have that option of a superstar player in 2017.

The list has been nearly completely turned over. Picked up some decent players from a relatively poor draft position.

Back at Moorabbin, with excellent facilities.

Lots to look forward to, last year was tough but I hope we have learnt a lot from it.
 

SaintsSeptember

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We basically run Sandringham now, the deal is similar to Hawthorn's with Box Hill. Part of that new deal was that we have a bigger stake in list management and coaching decisions and also Sandringham having to wear a St.Kilda strip for certain games. This is because Sandringham were almost going to leave the competition if not for our takeover. And they would've left like Carlton's affiliate did.
When we first moved from the Scorpions it was probably geographically motivated. We'd been with Springvale, but the Scorpions were heading further East.

It was pretty dysfunctional to start with.
Nick Sautner was a local icon, and no-one was going to accept a game plan that didn't involve him standing in the 50 and clunking goals.

But i think the main thing stopping it from being a useful means of developing Saints players back then, was the head coaches total disinterest.
 

Stan_Darsh72

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Agree with this, well and truly in a better place than 2017.

We can build a premiership team around King, we didn't have that option of a superstar player in 2017.

The list has been nearly completely turned over. Picked up some decent players from a relatively poor draft position.

Back at Moorabbin, with excellent facilities.

Lots to look forward to, last year was tough but I hope we have learnt a lot from it.
From a playing list POV the only real areas of weakness are; Lack of A grade Mids, Lack of quality ruck depth (Every club league wide has this issue) and 1 Tall Defender short.
 

SaintsSeptember

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From a playing list POV the only real areas of weakness are; Lack of A grade Mids, Lack of quality ruck depth (Every club league wide has this issue) and 1 Tall Defender short.
If we went back 5 years and dropped the best player in the world into our team, it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome much.
As it stands , we have a pretty good structure to drop that player into.
 

austinnn

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When we first moved from the Scorpions it was probably geographically motivated. We'd been with Springvale, but the Scorpions were heading further East.

It was pretty dysfunctional to start with.
Nick Sautner was a local icon, and no-one was going to accept a game plan that didn't involve him standing in the 50 and clunking goals.

But i think the main thing stopping it from being a useful means of developing Saints players back then, was the head coaches total disinterest.
Absolutely agree. Really hope that Rath and Ratten pay more respect to Zebs than our previous coaches did to their ressies teams. It may not be glamorous, but it's so important for development.

I think Bachelor is the first of our Ressies coaches to actually be doing a decent job developing our players, they seem to authentically progress after some time at Sandy.
 

sunny3193

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Sep 28, 2016
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Absolutely agree. Really hope that Rath and Ratten pay more respect to Zebs than our previous coaches did to their ressies teams. It may not be glamorous, but it's so important for development.

I think Bachelor is the first of our Ressies coaches to actually be doing a decent job developing our players, they seem to authentically progress after some time at Sandy.
Aussie, I am really looking forward to going to TBBO next year and that hasn’t been the case for years.
There will be so much new talent to view!
Hopefully the talent, and it’s development, will live up to the hype.
If we see a repeat of Ming’s first quarter (pre his injury) but multiplied by the number of new faces, I am going to be enjoying myself.
 

cooperrules

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I think our biggest problem is we dont have much home grown talent. Our midfield has been traded from other clubs.

Steele
Crouch
Jones
ryder

Look at all of the great premiership teams hawthorn richmond geelong melb bulldogs wc. They All have homegrown talent who have come through the ranks organically together to form dynasties. You need to have a solid base of homegrown stars then add to that as you need. We are doing everything backwards. Useing bandaids to fill holes instead of growing our own. Shows how poor we have been at developing talent plus poor draft pick choices have set us back.

I hope this is now on the agenda to fix this otherwise we could be in no mans land for a very long time.
 

Ephemeral Hope

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Apr 24, 2021
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I think our biggest problem is we dont have much home grown talent. Our midfield has been traded from other clubs.

Steele
Crouch
Jones
ryder

Look at all of the great premiership teams hawthorn richmond geelong melb bulldogs wc. They All have homegrown talent who have come through the ranks organically together to form dynasties. You need to have a solid base of homegrown stars then add to that as you need. We are doing everything backwards. Useing bandaids to fill holes instead of growing our own. Shows how poor we have been at developing talent plus poor draft pick choices have set us back.

I hope this is now on the agenda to fix this otherwise we could be in no mans land for a very long time.
Not something to worry about considering we’re looking at bringing in 3-4 top 30 players in this years draft. Alison and Heath will essentially be like new players too. That’s 4 midfielders, a ruck, and a forward/(or back) who will all be around the same age and coming into the club the same year.
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
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I think our biggest problem is we dont have much home grown talent. Our midfield has been traded from other clubs.

Steele
Crouch
Jones
ryder

Look at all of the great premiership teams hawthorn richmond geelong melb bulldogs wc. They All have homegrown talent who have come through the ranks organically together to form dynasties. You need to have a solid base of homegrown stars then add to that as you need. We are doing everything backwards. Useing bandaids to fill holes instead of growing our own. Shows how poor we have been at developing talent plus poor draft pick choices have set us back.

I hope this is now on the agenda to fix this otherwise we could be in no mans land for a very long time.

The way we are doing our build is unique. It's certainly not the way clubs usually build up to a premiership. It might be that we are building a side that sits around 7th to 12th most years for 5 years and need to build up to a premiership slowly while staying competitive. Max King and Hunter Clark might be the core of the side that plays in our next tilt more than Steele and Jones types who will possibly still be around but not the main men any more.

So far it's working better than it should so who knows we may actually defy the system but either way finding top end talent is the only way to progress. Maybe guys like Snags still have the potential to move into that range. If guys like Sharman can play top level footy and cost FA in draft draft capital it should help the cause too.
 

gringo2011

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Not something to worry about considering we’re looking at bringing in 3-4 top 30 players in this years draft. Alison and Heath will essentially be like new players too. That’s 4 midfielders, a ruck, and a forward/(or back) who will all be around the same age and coming into the club the same year.

It's not age that I worry about, it's quality. I don't think it matters where you get top quality players from you just have to get them.
 

Ephemeral Hope

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Apr 24, 2021
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It's not age that I worry about, it's quality. I don't think it matters where you get top quality players from you just have to get them.
Well there’s no doubt we’ve been successful in bringing in quality trades. And now the club is making a concerted effort to bring in quality draft picks. So we can’t really judge which worked better until next year. But they’re making the right moves and are obviously aware of the ratio being skewed
 

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