Which Club has been more Successful in the AFL era Geelong or Hawthorn?

[Fastback]

One fewer flag in that timeframe and nearly annual preliminary final losses are a fair trade for me in the sense that there’s really little to complain about when the alternative could have been Essendon’s past 20 years.

Good way to look at it.

 

[iameviljez]

One fewer flag in that timeframe and nearly annual preliminary final losses are a fair trade for me in the sense that there’s really little to complain about when the alternative could have been Essendon’s past 20 years.

More than I would have dared dream of when Ayres and Colbert left in the same off season

 

[iameviljez]

Let me know when they present the cup for win percentage.

I think this argument is probably a bit more animated when comparing a club with a long history of being utter shit and one excellent dynasty vs consistent success - ie Richmond and Sydney. Probably less controversial in the case of Hawthorn vs Geelong, when every Cats fan would give up their winning percentage for the 2008 GF.

 

[peetoo]

McClellans trophy was win percentage
/

 

[Dark Eagle 9]

Were Cats on Dank-tides?

Was Bomber Thompson drilling a lady boy?

How come Hawthorn didnt get crucified in 2007 for the list of recreational party substance users they had, just before they came good?

Both great clubs. Cats had the better team but flopped it hard so Hawks hold the ledger.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I think this argument is probably a bit more animated when comparing a club with a long history of being utter shit and one excellent dynasty vs consistent success - ie Richmond and Sydney. Probably less controversial in the case of Hawthorn vs Geelong, when every Cats fan would give up their winning percentage for the 2008 GF.

No one gives a shit about winning percentage.

 

[Hawks1523]

I couldn’t give a shit if a team has a better win percentage, better head to head. It’s all about premierships, and neither set of supporters would be disappointed with what our clubs have given us.

That said, it’s us

 

[iameviljez]

No one gives a shit about winning percentage.

People give a shit about how many appalling seasons of crap they have to sit through, though

 

[PhatBoy]

No one gives a shit about winning percentage.

Ultimately of course they don’t and as mentioned earlier everyone will always trade anything for flags but all fans still like turning up to watch their team each week so shitting on people (not saying you’ve done it) just for enjoying the fact that their team is regularly competitive is missing their point:

To a literal man, I guarantee you every Cats fan would love the extra success of more flags.

But we all love at the same time, as Swans fans would too I’m guessing, the annual investment in getting fairly deep into the comp. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying playing finals footy - and you guys in addition to actually winning comps have still done that a heck of a lot too.

 

[SSSSSS]

People give a shit about how many appalling seasons of crap they have to sit through, though

Not if there are flags at the end of it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not if there are flags at the end of it.

Hawthorn have been the most successful side in the AFL era because of that flag count.

They are the ultimate template of how to use equalisation to your advantage with their rebuild -> peak -> collapse -> rebuild -> peak model. Most clubs get stuck at one of those stages or have too many years middling somewhere in between.

Geelong are an example of how to do it without bottoming out with the collapse/rebuild phase. It makes sense that it wouldn't net as many flags because you don't get as many top 5 or even top 10 picks.

Ironically Hawthorn's first AFL era flag was a little more like Geelong's last one. Already a powerhouse, then kept the era going. But a pretty large period of irrelevancy followed.

 

[Scotland]

AFL era being 1990 onward? Hawthorn. 91, 08, 13, 14, 15 > 07, 09, 11, 22.

Bit of a weird comparison though as the 1991 Hawks side was the end of the great 80s era and totally disconnected from any future success. If Hawthorn won say 1987 instead of 1991 then more people would be saying Geelong. Hawthorn were a bit of a nothing team from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s while Geelong made three GFs in four years.

If you made it this century only (so 2001-2025 inclusive) then it's 4 flags each, 6 GFs vs 5, 18 finals appearances vs 12, 4 minor premierships vs 2 while Hawthorn won 3 in a row and Geelong never went back to back. Only Carlton, Brisbane, Collingwood and Melbourne have won 3 flags in a row with only two of those being in the modern era.

Teams like Geelong and Sydney and recently Port to a smaller degree don't get much credit for making the top 4 consistently and not winning flags because footy fans are conditioned to focus on premierships. Geelong were a meme until flogging Sydney in 2022, now Sydney are a meme for getting regularly flogged in GFs. The minor premiership is valued so highly the trophy that was presented it is now awarded for some combined AFL/AFLW metric. Geelong over a 10 year period made the finals 9 times and top 4 in 7 of those seasons and won nothing. Meanwhile my own team won a flag and made another GF to bookend a 10 year period, but won a spoon and were hot garbage in the middle. Would you rather be WC 2006-15 or Geelong 2012-21?

 

[Mr Meow]

AFL era being 1990 onward? Hawthorn. 91, 08, 13, 14, 15 > 07, 09, 11, 22.

Bit of a weird comparison though as the 1991 Hawks side was the end of the great 80s era and totally disconnected from any future success. If Hawthorn won say 1987 instead of 1991 then more people would be saying Geelong. Hawthorn were a bit of a nothing team from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s while Geelong made three GFs in four years.

If you made it this century only (so 2001-2025 inclusive) then it's 4 flags each, 6 GFs vs 5, 18 finals appearances vs 12, 4 minor premierships vs 2 while Hawthorn won 3 in a row and Geelong never went back to back. Only Carlton, Brisbane, Collingwood and Melbourne have won 3 flags in a row with only two of those being in the modern era.

Teams like Geelong and Sydney and recently Port to a smaller degree don't get much credit for making the top 4 consistently and not winning flags because footy fans are conditioned to focus on premierships. Geelong were a meme until flogging Sydney in 2022, now Sydney are a meme for getting regularly flogged in GFs. The minor premiership is valued so highly the trophy that was presented it is now awarded for some combined AFL/AFLW metric. Geelong over a 10 year period made the finals 9 times and top 4 in 7 of those seasons and won nothing. Meanwhile my own team won a flag and made another GF to bookend a 10 year period, but won a spoon and were hot garbage in the middle. Would you rather be WC 2006-15 or Geelong 2012-21?

Good points raised. Ultimately flag counts are still always going to be the argument ender for a given period.

Geelong's 2012-2021 period did get frustrating. It never felt like we were definitively the best side in it (on average about the 3rd best side, sometimes 2nd), but making top 4 that often you want to snag at least one flag along the way - or else it feels like a waste. In that respect, 2022 wrapped it up nicely. Otherwise, it would've been another 1989-1995 situation - albeit only making the GF once (and in a Covid season).

One thing I would say is that finals heartbreaks are softened a little by previous recent success. I can imagine going through Geelong 2012-2021's journey on the back of a big St Kilda-like drought would have been tortorous. But we did come off the back of the best era (by far) any of us have known as Geelong supporters. We probably expected to be crap for 10 years or more following that. Another flag (or even 2) would've been nice, but I wouldn't swap our 21st century run for any club.

Some have the view that it is better to strike gold almost every time you are up and about and then take your medicine so to speak, with years in the doldrums (can't lose finals if you don't make them). Of course this is only people who support clubs that have had that profile. As long as your team do come out #1 some years, then in my opinion you'd rather follow a consistently contending club as opposed to one where they have a decade or more never even really challenging for flags.

Sydney at the moment though are on a streak of 4 losing grand finals - 3 of them they started favourites. That must be a bitter pill to swallow, even with 2 premierships this century.

 

[Delisted]

Who was Geelongs best player to wear No. 1 In modern era?

 

[Warhorse]

Geelong. Geelong has the most ability to have most opposition fans foaming at the mouth. We seem to be everyone's Grand Final

 

[peetoo]

Hawthorn never went to the bottom of the ladder to rebuild on purpose

Indeed they tried to do as Geelong have done with Mitchell omeara and wingard

Where is the slew of talent taken with early picks? There’s been a couple around #6 and unfortunately DGB is no longer playing

 

[Mr Meow]

Hawthorn never went to the bottom of the ladder to rebuild on purpose

Indeed they tried to do as Geelong have done with Mitchell omeara and wingard

Where is the slew of talent taken with early picks? There’s been a couple around #6 and unfortunately DGB is no longer playing

Dynasty Hawks side did to launch into '08.

Then post dynasty they did try to top up initially, but ultimately went almost a decade between winning finals. '19-'23 no finals at all.

 

[peetoo]

Just no.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just no.

In other words you can't contest anything I said, which was all true.

It's not even a critique. Hawthorn do the peak -> rebuild -> peak cycle better than any team in the AFL.

 

[Mr Meow]

-Sub-10 win seasons:

Hawthorn in the AFL era have 8, 7, 7, 5, 9, 9, 5, 4, 8, 8 and 7 win seasons (11 total).
Geelong have 9, 9, 7 and 8 win seasons (4 total)

-Top 4 finishes:

Hawthorn in the AFL era have 10.
Geelong have 20.

Hawthorn have been more successful due to the extra flag. But they've also obviously had better picks along the way. They're the slingshot team. Geelong the ever-presents. Both models can work.

 

[peetoo]

In other words you can't contest anything I said, which was all true.

It's not even a critique. Hawthorn do the peak -> rebuild -> peak cycle better than any team in the AFL.

It’s not intentional though. Maybe one less win to qualify for pp in 04

Clarko fully intended to do what Geelong did in 16-19. It didn’t work out

Our low draft picks are a fraction of what some teams have hoovered up recently…and those teams are still running multiple low ladder finishes

Nice add. Hawks have Carlton’s 1st and 2nd rounder in 2025. West coast have ours

 

[Mr Meow]

It’s not intentional though. Maybe one less win to qualify for pp in 04

Clarko fully intended to do what Geelong did in 16-19. It didn’t work out

Our low draft picks are a fraction of what some teams have hoovered up recently…and those teams are still running multiple low ladder finishes

Nice add. Hawks have Carlton’s 1st and 2nd rounder in 2025. West coast have ours

Okay fair enough and I agree with the bolded. Hawthorn have not gone to the depths a bunch of other clubs have in order to climb back up to the top end of the ladder. And certainly not for as long. I'm only commenting in relation to Geelong. Hawthorn did have 7 players it drafted from top 6 picks in its 2008 list (so plenty of bites at the cherry), compared to none for Geelong. Franklin, Roughead and Hodge were huge - even though a bunch of others were misses.

The thing about the lack of low finishes isn't just about the 1st pick you get. It's the fact you're choosing after almost every other team for the 2nd and 3rd picks.

The Cats did strike gold in the gene pool though, with Hawkins in particular the key to keeping it all running (under current rules, we'd have had to miss out on Selwood to get him).

 

[iameviljez]

Not if there are flags at the end of it.

Would you rather have been a Richmond or Sydney fan for the last 35 years?

 

[peetoo]

Okay fair enough and I agree with the bolded. Hawthorn have not gone to the depths a bunch of other clubs have in order to climb back up to the top end of the ladder. And certainly not for as long. I'm only commenting in relation to Geelong. Hawthorn did have 7 players it drafted from top 6 picks in its 2008 list (so plenty of bites at the cherry), compared to none for Geelong. Franklin, Roughead and Hodge were huge - even though a bunch of others were misses.

The thing about the lack of low finishes isn't just about the 1st pick you get. It's the fact you're choosing after almost every other team for the 2nd and 3rd picks.

The Cats did strike gold in the gene pool though, with Hawkins in particular the key to keeping it all running (under current rules, we'd have had to miss out on Selwood to get him).

Agreed. I’d be happy if hawthorn had tracked Geelong more too.

Both teams among others filled up in that 2001 draft. Set them up for very good decade and beyond.

My suspicion is this ‘hard rebuild ‘ orthodoxy uses 2001 draft as evidence when it was just a very strong draft

Carlton were excluded as punishment but then got three consecutive number one picks which should have been fantastic but wasnt.

 

[jim boy]

Hawthorn did have 7 players it drafted from top 6 picks in its 2008 list

Like Thorpe I'm not sure that this topic would even have been raised if the Hawks had selected the guy at pick 7. Sliding Doors.