Worst list in the AFL at present?

[Lana]

Mark Duffield, probably the most respected footy journo in WA pretty much echoed this sentiment around West Coast on SEN this week. They may be middle of the road this year but there’s a huge dearth of young talent ready to take over beyond next year.
I suppose it is hard to find a balance when you’ve won a recent premiership and go all in for another one. The best thing the Eagles could do from here is go the Hawthorn route. Commit to bottoming out to avoid the dreaded no man’s land of being a perpetual 6-12th team. I’m not sure their 100000 members and local supporters will be patient with this as they’ve become accustomed to success over time.

Gutting your list is a fools errand, this isn't the NBA where a single player can make or break your list nor is there a priority pick to double your fun. Pumping early games into low talent players just leads to a downward spiral. Instead of having to find 4 players in the short term you make it 8 and you end up pumping up the salary costs of sub par players. Something that Hawthorn will have to learn this year.

 

[Obeanie1]

Eagles are cooked. Committed to lots of long-term big money deals for injury prone or under-performing players:

Gaff (2 more years)
Yeo (2 more years)
NicNat (2 more years)
Allen (3 more years) *good youngster but injury prone
Tim Kelly (3 more years)
Jack Darling (3 more years)
*Kelly and Darling being paid superstar money but
they’re well below that level.

Having said that, post-2017 I thought the Eagles were in big trouble as their midfield was hopeless in quality and depth …. Then they won the flag ….


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Is that a lot of long term contracts? Six.

Is 2 years even a long term these days?

Eagles have a Ton of cap room getting freed up end of 2023 and even more in 2024. They will be free agent shopping for the next two years and then in 2025 they will have drafted the kids and have cash and picks to land established players.

 

[Obeanie1]

Eagles from the Crows.

They’ve wasted or at least struggled to develop a bunch of 1st round picks.

Eagles wasted a 1st on Brander. Agreed. But 1st rounders are no certainties.

What other 1st rounder have they stuffed up or not yet developed?

Venables had to retire in his early 20's due to concussion.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Eagles wasted a 1st on Brander. Agreed. But 1st rounders are no certainties.

What other 1st rounder have they stuffed up or not yet developed?

Venables had to retire in his early 20's due to concussion.

Crows.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Pumping early games into low talent players just leads to a downward spiral. Instead of having to find 4 players in the short term you make it 8 and you end up pumping up the salary costs of sub par players. Something that Hawthorn will have to learn this year.

Hawthorn won 8 games in 2022, even knocked off the Lions and Cats, and lost by a kick to the Pies and Blues when they were flying.
17 of Hawthorn’s Top 25 in the 2022 B&F were 24 and under, 3 players from that 25 are no longer at the club.

The idea that we’re putting games into “low talent” players is pretty odd, considering the amount of talent players like Newcombe, Day, Jiath, DGB, Ward, MacDonald etc have all shown, as well as the draftees yet to debut.

 

[jim boy]

I dont know about worst list, but most overrated goes by a country mile to Hawthorn. You can talk all you want about potential, future premiership side, outstanding junior talent all you want but what counts is on the scoreboard, and this Hawks team scoreboard say that they have done jack-shit. If potential meant anything, Gold Coast and GWS would be going for their sixth premiership between them this year. Same goes for their coach - has a gilded tongue but has put jack-shit on the scoreboard. At least the likes of West Coast, North, Essendon, even St Kilda are somewhat less deluded about their respective teams.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Gutting your list is a fools errand, this isn't the NBA where a single player can make or break your list nor is there a priority pick to double your fun. Pumping early games into low talent players just leads to a downward spiral. Instead of having to find 4 players in the short term you make it 8 and you end up pumping up the salary costs of sub par players. Something that Hawthorn will have to learn this year.

This is an incredibly close minded statement, also one that takes no account of the fact that of the players that left last season, only 3 were best 22/played significant football last season

 

[Purple Suit]

Eagles wasted a 1st on Brander. Agreed. But 1st rounders are no certainties.

What other 1st rounder have they stuffed up or not yet developed?

Venables had to retire in his early 20's due to concussion.

2014 - Liam Duggan was the last 1st rounder you have developed into an AFL player. Yes, you won a flag in 2018 but it was not due to the 1st round drafting from 2015-2017. Since then you have traded or blown your 1st rounders, not including the last 2 season which are too early to tell but they are currently on zero games.

That is a gaping hole in the list and the main reason you are currently so bad. It'll get worse as your stars retire and take years to rectify, even if you nail the next 3 drafts.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

I dont know about worst list, but most overrated goes by a country mile to Hawthorn. You can talk all you want about potential, future premiership side, outstanding junior talent all you want but what counts is on the scoreboard, and this Hawks team scoreboard say that they have done jack-s**t. If potential meant anything, Gold Coast and GWS would be going for their sixth premiership between them this year. Same goes for their coach - has a gilded tongue but has put jack-s**t on the scoreboard. At least the likes of West Coast, North, Essendon, even St Kilda are somewhat less deluded about their respective teams.

Breaking news - Rebuilding side and first year coach hasn't won many games , what a stupid statement

Scored enough to beat your mob this season if you want to look what is on the board so far

How dare fans pump up their own side, certain Geelong fans get so upset when anyone mentions anything positive about Hawthorn, same with certain Hawks fans when Cats go well, its pathetic the manufactured salt

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I dont know about worst list, but most overrated goes by a country mile to Hawthorn. You can talk all you want about potential, future premiership side, outstanding junior talent all you want but what counts is on the scoreboard, and this Hawks team scoreboard say that they have done jack-s**t. If potential meant anything, Gold Coast and GWS would be going for their sixth premiership between them this year. Same goes for their coach - has a gilded tongue but has put jack-s**t on the scoreboard. At least the likes of West Coast, North, Essendon, even St Kilda are somewhat less deluded about their respective teams.

How the hell can the team winning the “wooden spoon” poll on this board(won it last year too) and coming second in this poll for worst list be overrated?

 

[bh90210fan]

2014 - Liam Duggan was the last 1st rounder you have developed into an AFL player. Yes, you won a flag in 2018 but it was not due to the 1st round drafting from 2015-2017. Since then you have traded or blown your 1st rounders, not including the last 2 season which are too early to tell but they are currently on zero games.

That is a gaping hole in the list and the main reason you are currently so bad. It'll get worse as your stars retire and take years to rectify, even if you nail the next 3 drafts.

Here’s how we spent our first rounders since drafting Duggan up until 2021;

2015 - Traded for Jack Redden
2016 - Dan Venebles
2017 - Jarrod Brander
2018 - Swapped with Gold Coast and ended up with Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan and Jack Petrucelle
2019 - Tim Kelly
2020 - Tim Kelly

A few premiership players, a couple of All Australians plus Oscar Allen at the end of the day. The only bust there is Brander.

Hardly the disaster you’re trying to make it out to be.

 

[Purple Suit]

Here’s how we spent our first rounders since drafting Duggan up until 2021;

2015 - Traded for Jack Redden
2016 - Dan Venebles
2017 - Jarrod Brander
2018 - Swapped with Gold Coast and ended up with Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan and Jack Petrucelle
2019 - Tim Kelly
2020 - Tim Kelly

A few premiership players, a couple of All Australians plus Oscar Allen at the end of the day. The only bust there is Brander.

Hardly the disaster you’re trying to make it out to be.

1st round talent is a much higher chance of being A graders/match winners and playing a lot of games. The higher the pick, the more likely the result. You traded those higher chances for top up players & blew the ones you did take.

The disaster doesn't occur at the time but later. One season you can cover, 2 also but 6 in a row is why you were bottom 2 last year and leading the poll. It's what makes the 2019/20 trade even worse considering the drafts 4 years prior, although at the time you thought both Venebles & Brander were going to make it.

 

[bh90210fan]

1st round talent is a much higher chance of being A graders/match winners and playing a lot of games. The higher the pick, the more likely the result. You traded those higher chances for top up players & blew the ones you did take.

The disaster doesn't occur at the time but later. One season you can cover, 2 also but 6 in a row is why you were bottom 2 last year and leading the poll. It's what makes the 2019/20 trade even worse considering the drafts 4 years prior, although at the time you thought both Venebles & Brander were going to make it.

We played finals every year between 2015 - 2020. Including a couple of grand finals.

The highest pick we had over that entire period was 13. To end up with a few premiership players and a couple of All Australians at the end of the day is not too shabby at all. You’d kill to have a period like that.

 

[TheUnicorn]

If by worst you mean furthest from a premiership I would say West Coast or St Kilda.

 

[hawkman]

If by worst you mean furthest from a premiership I would say West Coast or St Kilda.

I would also add Port Adelaide in there

 

[tonygeeks]

Here’s how we spent our first rounders since drafting Duggan up until 2021;

2015 - Traded for Jack Redden
2016 - Dan Venebles
2017 - Jarrod Brander
2018 - Swapped with Gold Coast and ended up with Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan and Jack Petrucelle
2019 - Tim Kelly
2020 - Tim Kelly

A few premiership players, a couple of All Australians plus Oscar Allen at the end of the day. The only bust there is Brander.

Hardly the disaster you’re trying to make it out to be.

Throw the 2nd rounders in too so everyone can have a look at the recent draft form of the bloke you are betting your rebuild on

Absolute trash

 

[WillHayward]

This is an incredibly close minded statement, also one that takes no account of the fact that of the players that left last season, only 3 were best 22/played significant football last season

Lost 2 from ur top 10 b and f plus gunston.

So 3 good players gone.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Lost 2 from ur top 10 b and f plus gunston.

So 3 good players gone.

Out: 3x 29+ yr olds.
In: 23, 24 and 27 year old, plus two first rounders.

Certainly lost a lot of experience, but I think the whole “gutted the list” thing is overblown.

 

[kane249]

Throw the 2nd rounders in too so everyone can have a look at the recent draft form of the bloke you are betting your rebuild on

Absolute trash

Freo's second rounders in that time havent been much better
2014: Connor Blakeley
2015: Darcy Tucker, Harley Bellic
2016: Sean Darcy, Brennan Cox
2017: N/A
2018: Luke Valente
2019: N/A
2020: Nathan O'Driscoll

Glass houses, stones etc

 

[tonygeeks]

Freo's second rounders in that time havent been much better
2014: Connor Blakeley
2015: Darcy Tucker, Harley Bellic
2016: Sean Darcy, Brennan Cox
2017: N/A
2018: Luke Valente
2019: N/A
2020: Nathan O'Driscoll

Glass houses, stones etc

Laughable

2 guns

O’Driscoll would be the best young player at your club

Blakely and Tucker probably hit the league average for games played for 2nd rounders

2 busts

 

[kane249]

Laughable

2 guns

O’Driscoll would be the best young player at your club

Blakely and Tucker probably hit the league average for games played for 2nd rounders

2 busts

Not surprising some real rose coloured glasses when looking at your own list huh

For the record the Eagles second rounders in that same time
2021: Brady Hough, Rhett Bazzo
2018: Xavier O'Neill, Luke Foley, Bailey Williams
2017: Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan, Brayden Ainsworth, Jack Petrucelle
2016: Josh Rotham
2015: Luke Partington, Tom Cole
2014: Tom Lamb

A gun in Oscar Allen
An All Australian and premiership player in Liam Ryan
A premiership player in Tom Cole and best 22 defender

Rotham, Petrucelle, O'Neill, Foley and Williams all still on the list and can clear your very low bar of playing an average amount of games to be worthwhile picks.

Hough and Bazzo both had good rookie seasons in a poor side and showed good glimpses.

Rest duds

So by your own low standards, Eagles second round record is as good as your mob.

We just haven't had multiple first round picks generated by low finishes, and players leaving due to a poor culture to cover that record like Freo has.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Lost 2 from ur top 10 b and f plus gunston.

So 3 good players gone.

I know it might be hard to read something before you write it

But thats what I said

only 3 were best 22/played significant football last season

 

[sammm]

Darling is nearly 31 start of 2023, with 3 years left … that’s the problem. And he’s on the decline.

Goals + goal assist averages:

2018: 3.1
2019: 3.2
2020: 2.5
2021: 2.4
2022: 2.0

As a comparison … Brody Mihocek:

2021: 1.9
2022: 2.2

Jack Riewoldt:

2021: 3.1
2022: 2.5

Jack was supposedly on the cusp of retirement… then re-signed on apparently $300k.

So big money for the 2018-19 version of Darling, no problem.

But big money for 31-33yo Jack Darling in 2023-25 … that’s a problem.




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Darling being re-signed on apparently for $300k is cheap not expensive.

 

[Warhorse]

I don't understand why anybody would have an issue with that comment.

We've quickly become the youngest team in the competition after hitting the draft hard and securing talent from other clubs still with plenty of footy left in the tank.

If you consider Mitchells comment to be laughable are you suggesting that the young talent on the list isn't capable of developing over the next 5-10 years?

He isn't suggesting the team in its current form are premiership fancies heading into 2023.

But what is wrong with a coach anticipating that his side is primed for future success once Will Day, DGB, Josh Ward, Connor Macdonald, Cam Mackenzie, Josh Weddle, Jai Newcombe, Dylan Moore, Jiath, Ned Reeves, Mitchell Lewis, Jack Scrimshaw, Sam Butler and co have played 50-100 games together? He believes in his young men. That's all.

The comment is purely from a list demographic perspective and one that proves he has confidence in this current group executing a game plan that will win finals as they mature.

Do you believe the 'vast majority' are already on the list? I would say Hawthorn are a couple of drafts away from building a contending list.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Do you believe the 'vast majority' are already on the list? I would say Hawthorn are a couple of drafts away from building a contending list.

Considering the list demographic I'd say yes. And with belief that the young players will continue moving forward with an upward trajectory.

It's been done to death, but Sam Mitchell and Mark McKenzie laid out a list rebuild plan and it's not currently factoring in multiple drafts from this point on. They are very happy with the current group and what it can achieve over the next 5-10 years. Of course that may depend on how they all perform in 2023 however.