Victoria Election - 29 November 2014

[swingdog]

Desal plant was rushed. Myki massively was bungled when we were offered two terrific proven systems for a legitimate lower cost but blatantly ignored them because bRACKS and company wanted to be new ground breakers.

Agree with both of those but it doesn't obviate the need for them. That's the difference: there is no NEED for East-West.

 

[mottrain]

Agree with both of those but it doesn't obviate the need for them. That's the difference: there is no NEED for East-West.

There is a need for East West as much as there was a need for the desalination plant and myki. One project could have been on hold and the other needed to be basically far more comprehensive to be benefitting.

 

[swingdog]

There is a need for East West as much as there was a need for the desalination plant and myki. One project could have been on hold and the other needed to be basically far more comprehensive to be benefitting.

Not if you believe in the evidence. Only 7 per cent of traffic on both the Eastern and Western Freeways wants to go on either east or west. The vast majority of it wants to go to the CBD, which East-West isn't serving.

That's why the government has struggled to sell this to private operators. They could see it was a dead horse and said they'd only take it on if they were either guaranteed off-ramps into the city (which the government hasn't allowed because it would be political suicide) or if the state government would make up the shortfall in expected operating costs.

Put it this way, if private companies, which have made a killing off tolls worldwide don't want to invest, then it's questionable whether you should be building that road.

On desal, the government of either stripe could say they're future-proofing, as the Liberal government has done in WA. Agree that myki has been a utensil-up in delivery but as I've said, there was a need for it.

 

[Slax]

There is a need for East West as much as there was a need for the desalination plant and myki. One project could have been on hold and the other needed to be basically far more comprehensive to be benefitting.

We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

The desal had been debated for a while, they just made a rushed decision about it as the drought was getting worse.

A new East-West link isn't need where they are building it though. There are 6 more need transport projects.

1. Metro rail tunnel. Current city rail stations are at capacity and we need to relieve them.
2. Ring Rd-Eastern Fwy link. This is the real missing link in Melbourne's transport infrastructure and would also remove the need for the second East-West tunnel. Having this link would allow a link to the Hume Fwy/Hwy without using CityLink.
3. Widening of the Chandler Hwy. With the increase in population density and the soon to begin redevelopment of the paper mill site at Alphington the Chandler is already a nightmare and putting another few thousand cars in the area isn't going to improve things.
4. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.
5. Easier access to Port of Melbourne from Westgate. We need to get heavy trucks of residential streets, having better ramp access would also help provide better traffic flow on the Westgate Fwy.
6. Airport rail link. For a city of our size not to have one is embarrassing. Build a rail link and you will automatically solve a heap of the traffic issues on the Tullamarine Fwy as the need to drive for many will be eliminated. An express train linking the airport to the Melbourne CBD would actually be widely used by corporates as well as passenger travellers.

 

[Slax]

Infrastucture australia is supposedly neutral. They are cool on the project. The way victoria is growing we really cant afford tit for tat political crap in the infrastructure place

Well done for being part of that

Id add that some of the biggest bailleu-napthine critics have been on their own side

That's crap. Infrastructure Australia are dead against it. They say it will be a loss making exercise returning 80cents in the dollar

http://www.smh.com.au/national/eastwest-link-would-not-return-state-costs-20140212-32ihr.html

 

[Pessimistic]

That's crap. Infrastructure Australia are dead against it. They say it will be a loss making exercise returning 80cents in the dollar

http://www.smh.com.au/national/eastwest-link-would-not-return-state-costs-20140212-32ihr.html

Sorry, i meant they are politically neutral. On purpose. They are never against infrastructure, just don't see this as a priority

 

[mottrain]

We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

The desal had been debated for a while, they just made a rushed decision about it as the drought was getting worse.

A new East-West link isn't need where they are building it though. There are 6 more need transport projects.

1. Metro rail tunnel. Current city rail stations are at capacity and we need to relieve them.
2. Ring Rd-Eastern Fwy link. This is the real missing link in Melbourne's transport infrastructure and would also remove the need for the second East-West tunnel. Having this link would allow a link to the Hume Fwy/Hwy without using CityLink.
3. Widening of the Chandler Hwy. With the increase in population density and the soon to begin redevelopment of the paper mill site at Alphington the Chandler is already a nightmare and putting another few thousand cars in the area isn't going to improve things.
4. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.
5. Easier access to Port of Melbourne from Westgate. We need to get heavy trucks of residential streets, having better ramp access would also help provide better traffic flow on the Westgate Fwy.
6. Airport rail link. For a city of our size not to have one is embarrassing. Build a rail link and you will automatically solve a heap of the traffic issues on the Tullamarine Fwy as the need to drive for many will be eliminated. An express train linking the airport to the Melbourne CBD would actually be widely used by corporates as well as passenger travellers.

They had the choice of the Octopus Card which was run by metcard but because the government thought best to change they tossed it out.

 

[Pessimistic]

Metcard itself had huge cost blow outs. Only myki makes it look good

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Flinders Street Station threatens to be a hot election item as heritage groups pick up steam

The National Trust is calling for election pledges to revive the crumbling Flinders Street Station, a year after selection of a winning design to revitalise the station, saying it remains half-unoccupied and ''falling to pieces''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/f...ck-up-steam-20140713-zt648.html#ixzz37OeQWiS7

I'm supportive of this, Flinders St should be restored, I'd even go further, I'd do a complete tear down of any retrofits and have them redone to fit with the stations architectural style (for that matter the design comp winner should be thrown out). With the amount of money that has been wasted polishing the turd that is Southern Cross station (what a horrible place to be the first part of the CBD interstate and country visitors see) they could have made Flinders St the station/landmark it should have been.

Rebuild the St Kilda Rd and River sides to match the Flinders street side and put and arched glass roof over the platform area, look to the great stations of Europe and the world from the time it was built.

As an aside, they really should do a much better job when doing retrofits to stations, the way they do them now it's clear they don't give a s**t how it looks or if it fits with the existing buildings ect. see PSO Boxes, additional wiring ect.

 

[Pessimistic]

Isnt filinders st the building practically unusable form a modern safety perspective ?

I guess all those extra fire escapes etc would interfere with the look too

 

[telsor]

We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

The desal had been debated for a while, they just made a rushed decision about it as the drought was getting worse.

Nah, it was a "We've got to look like we're doing something" decision.

A new East-West link isn't need where they are building it though. There are 6 more need transport projects.

1. Metro rail tunnel. Current city rail stations are at capacity and we need to relieve them.
2. Ring Rd-Eastern Fwy link. This is the real missing link in Melbourne's transport infrastructure and would also remove the need for the second East-West tunnel. Having this link would allow a link to the Hume Fwy/Hwy without using CityLink.
3. Widening of the Chandler Hwy. With the increase in population density and the soon to begin redevelopment of the paper mill site at Alphington the Chandler is already a nightmare and putting another few thousand cars in the area isn't going to improve things.
4. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.
5. Easier access to Port of Melbourne from Westgate. We need to get heavy trucks of residential streets, having better ramp access would also help provide better traffic flow on the Westgate Fwy.
6. Airport rail link. For a city of our size not to have one is embarrassing. Build a rail link and you will automatically solve a heap of the traffic issues on the Tullamarine Fwy as the need to drive for many will be eliminated. An express train linking the airport to the Melbourne CBD would actually be widely used by corporates as well as passenger travellers.

I'd put 2 at no1.

The problem with 4 is that it needs a lot more than just a 3rd track (which wouldn't be a small job anyway). They can't just run more trains because the level crossings have traffic backed up for miles already with the current rate of trains (well, it did when I lived thereabouts 5 years ago, I assume it's worse now). Either they build lots of really ugly bridges (see Oakleigh, which they'd need to rebuild for a 3rd track anyway) or they need to dig and sink the tracks down 5M or so (and run 'flat' bridges over them where required). Clearly, doing this would be a massive piece of work and would take the whole system off line for an extended period (or they could just run tunnels until at least Clayton, probably further). They'd also need substantial upgrades from Caulfield inwards to handle the extra load. (for what it's worth, the Upfield line could do with similar treatment).

 

[Slax]

Nah, it was a "We've got to look like we're doing something" decision.



I'd put 2 at no1.

The problem with 4 is that it needs a lot more than just a 3rd track (which wouldn't be a small job anyway). They can't just run more trains because the level crossings have traffic backed up for miles already with the current rate of trains (well, it did when I lived thereabouts 5 years ago, I assume it's worse now). Either they build lots of really ugly bridges (see Oakleigh, which they'd need to rebuild for a 3rd track anyway) or they need to dig and sink the tracks down 5M or so (and run 'flat' bridges over them where required). Clearly, doing this would be a massive piece of work and would take the whole system off line for an extended period (or they could just run tunnels until at least Clayton, probably further). They'd also need substantial upgrades from Caulfield inwards to handle the extra load. (for what it's worth, the Upfield line could do with similar treatment).

The old metcard system was on the verge of collapse, it was never designed to be a long term solution. I will though agree it was a rushed decision, which is part of the reason it took longer than expected and cost over $1b extra.

Committing to the extra track will take work, I'm not denying that, but it won't take longer than the East-West tunnel and benefits will come through on asteady basis. Assuming that they do what they've been doing between Box Hill and Ringwood, all it requires is to make sure that you allow for the third track when building the underpasses. It will take a couple of years and cause some disruption, but if they do Caulfield to Oakleigh first a large amount of the benefit can be achieved quickly. Also there is already a third track at Oakleigh, so the need for a complete rebuild at Warrigal Rd is not required. Caulfield inward already has 4 tracks so that is not a real issue.

For what it's worth pretty much every train line needs work, still scratching why when they extended the Epping line they didn't go out further, the cost of doing it then would've been a fraction of what it will be in the future (another dumb ALP decision). Ratio of investment in public transport compared to freeways has been pathetic and if had been better over the lasst 40 years we'd actually have a functioning rail network.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

So many fruitloop Liberals http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/s...ss-hardline-prolife-event-20140715-ztdii.html

 

[Fire]

So many fruitloop Liberals http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/s...ss-hardline-prolife-event-20140715-ztdii.html

Lol, the World Congress of Families. Appropriate Orwellian name. I don't understand why any politician from any party would want to be seen associated with such universally despised positions of anti-abortion and anti-homosexual. This isn't America; there is no wedge to be placed.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

That we did. The Same people behind Oyster are helping with Sydney's Opal Card and Opal craps all over our s

1. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.

This well and truly should of been built years ago. The new timetable at the end of this month sees stuff all express trains(Most peak hour trains will be running express through Yarraman, Westall, Malvern, Armidale, Toorak, Hawksburn) because quite simply they can't add more trains.

Isnt filinders st the building practically unusable form a modern safety perspective ?

I guess all those extra fire escapes etc would interfere with the look too

They use parts of it now for railway purposes.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

That we did. The Same people behind Oyster are helping with Sydney's Opal Card and Opal craps all over our s

1. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.

This well and truly should of been built years ago. The new timetable at the end of this month sees stuff all express trains(Most peak hour trains will be running express through Yarraman, Westall, Malvern, Armidale, Toorak, Hawksburn) because quite simply they can't add more trains.

You've also got the slow moving Steel train on the Stony Point and Frankston lines entering the city just on peak hour, the lack of grade separation past Caulfield means that it can cut off multiple roads at a time near stations.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

You've also got the slow moving Steel train on the Stony Point and Frankston lines entering the city just on peak hour, the lack of grade separation past Caulfield means that it can cut off multiple roads at a time near stations.

At least they've done somthing sensible with the freight to Maryvale. It normally goes down to Maryvale in the morning(4:30-5AM) and doesn't return until about 9:30PM.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

At least they've done somthing sensible with the freight to Maryvale. It normally goes down to Maryvale in the morning(4:30-5AM) and doesn't return until about 9:30PM.

Steel train leaves Hastings around 4pm returns in the middle of the night after the Frankston and Stony Point lines aren't in use.

In their infinite wisdom either vic roads or the local council have lowered speed limits in the area so that if you are not well ahead of the train by Tyabb you wont be able to beat it to any crossing. The train reaches about 80 as it enters Tyabb Township there are no speeds greater than 80 between it an a crossing from there to Frankston. You used to be able to beat it if you were behind when leaving Somerville.

The joke is that due to recent upgrades the roads are safer then they have ever been and should have had the speed limits increased.

 

[Slax]

Steel train leaves Hastings around 4pm returns in the middle of the night after the Frankston and Stony Point lines aren't in use.

In their infinite wisdom either vic roads or the local council have lowered speed limits in the area so that if you are not well ahead of the train by Tyabb you wont be able to beat it to any crossing. The train reaches about 80 as it enters Tyabb Township there are no speeds greater than 80 between it an a crossing from there to Frankston. You used to be able to beat it if you were behind when leaving Somerville.

The joke is that due to recent upgrades the roads are safer then they have ever been and should have had the speed limits increased.

This is actually why a track would be better built connecting it through Cranbourne to the Dandenong line if you built a third track there.

Removing level crossing along the Frankston line is actually very difficult due to the proximity to the beach of much of the line, hence why the Cranbourne link is a better option.

 

[Pessimistic]

This is actually why a track would be better built connecting it through Cranbourne to the Dandenong line if you built a third track there.

Removing level crossing along the Frankston line is actually very difficult due to the proximity to the beach of much of the line, hence why the Cranbourne link is a better option.

Have you seen where the coast road tunnels under the marina entrance at safety beach ?

Ive often thought if they fixed up the peninsula train line, the sand belt would be a great place for melbourne to expand some more, its a bit plain and the people would be living between the city, the bays and spectacular countryside at the lower peninsula

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Have you seen where the coast road tunnels under the marina entrance at safety beach ?

Also Parts of the Frankston CBD have underground carparks that are deeper than the grade separated rail would need to be. You could also get away with semi excavated in some areas. Seaford and Carrum are probably the only real problems area, Seaford in close to Kananook Creek and Carrum the Patterson river.

 

[Slax]

Have you seen where the coast road tunnels under the marina entrance at safety beach ?

Ive often thought if they fixed up the peninsula train line, the sand belt would be a great place for melbourne to expand some more, its a bit plain and the people would be living between the city, the bays and spectacular countryside at the lower peninsula

I have seen it and I also saw how long it took to build as well. It's a great solution to the problem, but took them ages to build it.

 

[Jade's_]

We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

The desal had been debated for a while, they just made a rushed decision about it as the drought was getting worse.

A new East-West link isn't need where they are building it though. There are 6 more need transport projects.

1. Metro rail tunnel. Current city rail stations are at capacity and we need to relieve them.
2. Ring Rd-Eastern Fwy link. This is the real missing link in Melbourne's transport infrastructure and would also remove the need for the second East-West tunnel. Having this link would allow a link to the Hume Fwy/Hwy without using CityLink.
3. Widening of the Chandler Hwy. With the increase in population density and the soon to begin redevelopment of the paper mill site at Alphington the Chandler is already a nightmare and putting another few thousand cars in the area isn't going to improve things.
4. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.
5. Easier access to Port of Melbourne from Westgate. We need to get heavy trucks of residential streets, having better ramp access would also help provide better traffic flow on the Westgate Fwy.
6. Airport rail link. For a city of our size not to have one is embarrassing. Build a rail link and you will automatically solve a heap of the traffic issues on the Tullamarine Fwy as the need to drive for many will be eliminated. An express train linking the airport to the Melbourne CBD would actually be widely used by corporates as well as passenger travellers.

East west link is a far more required option than a rail link to the airport.

Agree in that completing the ring road would make more sense than another tunnel but as a resident of camberwell who travels frequently for work, for purely selfish purposes I say bring on east west link!

 

[Slax]

East west link is a far more required option than a rail link to the airport.

Agree in that completing the ring road would make more sense than another tunnel but as a resident of camberwell who travels frequently for work, for purely selfish purposes I say bring on east west link!

Would've thought that the Doncaster rail link would be up on the list then to relieve pressure on Eastern Fwy traffic heading into the city.

I can see as many trips being made on the airport train link than the proposed East-West tunnell which has no city access and you can charge more for it too.

Current skybus fares:

• $18 Adult - one way - return $30

• $41 Family 2- (2 adults and 1-4 children) - return $70

• $25 Family 1- (1 adult and 1-4 children) - return $43

• $7 Child (4-14 years) - return $13

• $140 - 10 trip ticket

Sydney Airport raillink

• $16.40 Adult - one way

• $32.80 Adult return - with access to suburban rail network

• $12.50 Concession

So working off that a Melbourne airport link would stop North Melbourne and Cityloop stations

• $16.00* Adult - one way

• $30.00* Adult same day return - with access to suburban rail network

• $12.50* Concession

• $24.00* Concession same day return - with full access to suburban rail network.

* plus one off purchase price of reusable myki card $6. (unfortunately due to our stupid ticketing system you'd need one of these)

By comparison citylink currently charge a capped rate of $8.06 for travel along the Monash to Melbourne Airport, in a car that can carry more than one person.

The sums do add up, just Napthine is a vet and no good at maths.

 

[Todman]

Would've thought that the Doncaster rail link would be up on the list then to relieve pressure on Eastern Fwy traffic heading into the city.

I can see as many trips being made on the airport train link than the proposed East-West tunnell which has no city access and you can charge more for it too.

John Cain took the Doncaster rail link off the table. Labor under Bracks and Brumby had to be slapped around the head just to re-lay the track to South Morang. Don't hold your breath.