2022 Victorian State Election-November 26

[nobbyiscool]

But you and others are clearly terrified that even mentioning that people may hold views diametric to what you and I hold, is tantamount to endorsing them.

No, I'm terrified that we have a media and social media normalising right wing extremism. We saw the result of that this week, and it stuns me that anyone could simultaneously claim to be 'leftist' while defending the stupidity of arguments about nomenclature that's been deliberately weaponised by right-wing media to further divide people into 'teams'.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

See if you think I introduced woke into the discussion and not PJays then you're really not reading their posts carefully

His/her post 6,234 did not mention “woke”.

Your reply 6,235 did:

“Lol you think the labor is woke

But yeah you're a centrist.....”



None of which alters the main fact, that discussion of who is or isn’t “woke” is mind-meltingly stupid, and futile.

Because people don’t use the word “woke”. They brandish it.

 

[Sir_Loin]

No, I'm terrified that we have a media and social media normalising right wing extremism. We saw the result of that this week, and it stuns me that anyone could simultaneously claim to be 'leftist' while defending the stupidity of arguments about nomenclature that's been deliberately weaponised by right-wing media.

F’ing sick of the “I’m just asking questions” basis of RWNJ justification.


It’s getting to the point of trolling now

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

No, I'm terrified that we have a media and social media normalising right wing extremism. We saw the result of that this week, and it stuns me that anyone could simultaneously claim to be 'leftist' while defending the stupidity of arguments about nomenclature that's been deliberately weaponised by right-wing media to further divide people into 'teams'.

It stuns me that you could think I’m “defending” the “stupidity of arguments about nomenclature”.

I’m calling out BS barracking on this thread, is all.

If you can’t see that the definition of “woke” is weaponised by whoever is using it at the time they are using it, I really don’t know what to say.

If you can’t see that it’s possible to discuss voting trends that may have been decisive in the Vic election without it being seen as endorsing those trends, I think you should refrain from participating in the discussion and merely observe.

 

[Gralin]

His/her post 6,234 did not mention “woke”.

Your reply 6,235 did:

“Lol you think the labor is woke

But yeah you're a centrist.....”



None of which alters the main fact, that discussion of who is or isn’t “woke” is mind-meltingly stupid, and futile.

Because people don’t use the word “woke”. They brandish it.

reread 6234 again......

 

[nobbyiscool]

It stuns me that you could think I’m “defending” the “stupidity of arguments about nomenclature”.

I’m calling out BS barracking on this thread, is all.

If you can’t see that the definition of “woke” is weaponised by whoever is using it at the time they are using it, I really don’t know what to say.

If you can’t see that it’s possible to discuss voting trends that may have been decisive in the Vic election without it being seen as endorsing those trends, I think you should refrain from participating in the discussion and merely observe.

You're taking a high ground about the argument you're having by attacking people who weren't even involved in it.

 

[PJays]

Clearly you're delusional.

I refer to David Leljyonhelm and his election to a NSW Senate seat.

Leyonhjelm got about 1% of the vote!

DLP got over 5% in North East Metro and Western Metro, and 4.8% in North Metro.

Some were worse than others. On the booth I was on (in Melbourne's South) the DLP volunteer who say things like "Are you voting Labo(u)r? This is your How To Vote Card".

If true, then dodgy tactics and shouldn’t be allowed. If this was happening in every booth (which I doubt) then I’m sure Labor will gather evidence/witnesses and complain to the VEC.

However, DLP is a “Labour party” if not THE “Labor Party” and has been getting 2-4% of the vote in Northern and Western suburbs over the past 15 years. They have a well-established brand for a minor party- unlike others who exist for a few years then flame out.

At most name confusion might account for a tiny fraction of their vote. No chance it’s the main reason they got 5% in three separate upper house regions, instead of 1 or 2%!

Do you really think 1 in every 30 people (eg 3% of the population)...

• Intended to vote Labor
• Got confused
• Accidentally voted DLP instead

You think literally tens of thousands of people in Somyurek's electorate fit that description? A very long bow to draw

If you seriously think that people voted Labour DLP because of their policies - instead of any of the other Anti-Dan parties

I've explained why, using multiple detailed points of demographic data.....

- ask yourself, why did Somyurek run in a region 30 kms away from his home???!!!

why didn't the Labour DLP run a local for the number one spot in the North Metro region?

If the policies were so good, why didn't Somyurek run in his home region of South East Metro?

It’s called parachuting.

Frank McGuire, the long term Broady Labor MP lives in Fitzroy (now replaced by someone from Glenroy).

Lizzie Blandthorn- long term Pascoe Vale member and Goddaughter of previous PV member Christine Campbell- parachuted to West Metro for the 2022 election.

Kristina Kenneally was parachuted into Western Sydney in the federal election. And lost.

Etc etc etc etc. It’s common place.

Steve Bracks openly promoted the concept on election night coverage- when Kennett was lamenting that Pesutto might lose Hawthorn, Bracks said “If this was the Labor party he would’ve been put in a safe seat!”.

DLP wanted their star candidate in a winnable region.

If the policies were so good, why did the party change its name from "Democratic Labour Party" to "Labour DLP"???

Because it's shorter and sounds better?

To me it certainly didn’t appear DLP was hiding anything. They ran ads in local ethnic newspapers. They poured money into Facebook ads. I regularly saw DLP ads (I also had Greens ads popping up).

Again, Refer to recent posts for demographic data and reasons those areas would be attracted to DLP.

Data proves those electorates are poorer and socially conservative. Full of people who might like a Labor party with traditional values, whose economic policies favour working families but remain socially conservative. People disproportionately impacted by lockdowns. People who might be sick of ALP after the covid era but unwilling to vote Liberal.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

reread 6234 again......

LOL I didn’t even think that one counted.

Poster says “not woke” in passing which triggers you to completely ignore every other word in their well-argued post when you reply.

Are you TRYING to be a caricature of an online warrior ?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

*k off you moron, I could argue you to dust.

You're taking a high ground about the argument you're having by attacking people who weren't even involved in it.

I can keep it polite and respectful and I’d ask you to do the same. Maybe delete that post?

 

[Not Important]

I can keep it polite and respectful and I’d ask you to do the same. Maybe delete that post?

gets quite testy at times does nobby. some might say puts the "k" on nobby at times. not me of course.

 

[morningbrown]

The bill is not about conversion therapy as traditionally understood.

Firstly it defines conversion therapy very broadly, widening the net to all kinds of actions or therapies.

Secondly it throws sexual orientation and gender identity into the same basket assuming they're identical.

Okay, I have two questions:

1. What methods/actions/therapies do you think shouldn't be banned that are set to be banned?
2. Do you think it's right for a person's gender identity to be fought against, just because their parents are churchies?

 

[Gralin]

LOL I didn’t even think that one counted.

Poster says “not woke” in passing which triggers you to completely ignore every other word in their well-argued post when you reply.

Are you TRYING to be a caricature of an online warrior ?

Like I said, you're not reading their posts properly if you think they're just providing well constructed arguments on views not their own

“Affirmation” gender approach mandated in education and medicine. Against the advice of Australia’s peak psychiatrist body. Parents must consent. Start a discussion and you’re a criminal for questioning your own child’s gender transition (Literally. I’m not making this up).

I've voted in many elections. I usually appreciate the appeal of both major parties- even if I personally dislike one of them.

Not this time. I just can't understand how Labor is favourites. I can't understand why mainstream Australians would vote them back in.

I may be somewhat socially conservative but I am pretty close to centre on most "big issues"- economic policy, provision of social services, big vs small government spending, industrial relations, tax policy, etc.

And, let's face it, you don't have to be socially conservative to think Andrews is too "progressive" on issues like the gender stuff (amongst others). Many Labor voters in Victoria would think the same, but those aren't the issues that decide elections. They're niche issues that a small number of people take very seriously.

But many of the "progressive" social policies are not progressive. They are regressive. Elements of the policies on gender, abortion, prostitution, laws which suppress speech, as a few examples. Those are regressive- they literally take society back to ways of thinking and doing things from bygone eras. Failed ways of thinking that society had moved beyond.

Liberal also said nothing about various left policies:

• Parents should be jailed for talking to their own kids about gender transition. Liberal said nothing about this ridiculous anti-family policy which most Victorians would reject. And centrist/centre left and libertarian minor parties already rejected in parliament (Sustainable Australia, Hinch Justice Party, Lib Dems).

It's not "republican rhetoric" to oppose the abysmal Change and Suppression legislation.

All the minor parties and independents, other than the far left ones trading favours with Dan (Greens, Reason, Animal Justice) opposed that horrendous piece of legislation- Sustainable Australia, Transport Matters, Hinch's Justice Party, Lib Democrats. Those parties listened to community concerns, legal bodies and psychiatrist bodies, all who raised major issues with the legislation.

As for schools, it's actually federal Labor policy that schools should be allowed to employ people who follow that schools ethos.

As it should be, in a diverse, pluralistic society.

The extreme ideology that says parents must support wholeheartedly their child's gender transition otherwise that parent is a criminal.

The ideology that says schools cannot employ people who adhere to that school's ethos. ("Inherent requirement test").

The ideology that backed Patten's prostitution bill- sex work happening anywhere, anytime except outside schools and faith buildings from 6am - 7pm (as if prostitutes will stick to the rules and police will have time to enforce it?). Landlords can't stop sex workers from running brothels in their properties. Sex workers don't even need to have STD tests or declare their HIV status.

 

[Dave]

His/her post 6,234 did not mention “woke”.

Your reply 6,235 did:

“Lol you think the labor is woke

But yeah you're a centrist.....”



None of which alters the main fact, that discussion of who is or isn’t “woke” is mind-meltingly stupid, and futile.

Because people don’t use the word “woke”. They brandish it.

Post 6234:

Yeah, I'm sure this explains why 7.3% of people in those electorates voted DLP.

Not because ethnic minorities didn't like lockdowns

Not because ethnic minorities are the least woke people going around - the opposite of the ALP and more like the DLP.

Not because people in those areas are deserting Labor and looking for an alternative other than Liberal.

Nah the reason DLP was elected is because people thought they were voting for ALP

 

[PJays]

Like I said, you're not reading their posts properly if you think they're just providing well constructed arguments on views not their own

Thanks for quoting me at length- a helpful summary of why Victorian Labor is indeed too "progressive" for their own good.

The Change and Suppression legislation was discussed at length earlier in the thread and I provided numerous links to comments by professional psychiatrists about why the legislation is inappropriate.

For the record, I posted my "8 values" results, which labelled me as social and moderate. I didn't get further apart than 62/38 on any axis. One was actually 50.6% vs 49.4% from memory

I vote right more often than left- but I vote left regularly enough.

I approach voting pragmatically. With a relatively open mind. Without obsessing over one issue.

And I'm certainly more thoughtful and detailed with my political views than many of the BigFooty regulars! This thread demonstrates that clearly.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Thanks for quoting me at length- a helpful summary of why Victorian Labor is indeed too "progressive" for their own good.

The Change and Suppression legislation was discussed at length earlier in the thread and I provided numerous links to comments by professional psychiatrists about why the legislation is inappropriate.

For the record, I posted my "8 values" results, which labelled me as social and moderate. I didn't get further apart than 62/38 on any axis. One was actually 50.6% vs 49.4% from memory

I vote right more often than left- the last two times I voted Labor were 2022 Federal and 2013 Federal

But I approach voting pragmatically. Without obsessing over one issue.

And I certainly have a more open mind, and am more centrist than most of the BigFooty regulars. This thread demonstrates that clearly!

You’re not a centrist. It’s been proven with your own words. Stop ******* up the thread with your inane bullshit.

Can’t believe the mods are putting up with this total BS

 

[PJays]

You’re not a centrist. It’s been proven with your own words. Stop ******* up the thread with your inane bullshit.

This has been discussed in detail and I've provided multiple layers of definition for centrist and multiple examples of types of people who could reasonably be called centrist (I think it was in this thread, but not 100%)

Either provide some substance to your statement, or respond to my arguments, or just stop because right now you sound ignorant

Those are your three options, if you want to actually be a reasonable person

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Yeah, I'm sure this explains why 7.3% of people in those electorates voted DLP.

Not because ethnic minorities didn't like lockdowns

Not because ethnic minorities are the least woke people going around - the opposite of the ALP and more like the DLP.

Not because people in those areas are deserting Labor and looking for an alternative other than Liberal.

Nah the reason DLP was elected is because people thought they were voting for ALP

Are you an ethnic minority? You seem to be very knowledgeable about what they all think.

 

[PJays]

Are you an ethnic minority? You seem to be very knowledgeable about what they all think.

I have a diverse group of family and friends and yes, quite a few of them could be categorised "ethnic minority".

Not that my personal view matters- I've demonstrated with plebiscite data that the areas DLP got votes are socially conservative. And I've demonstrated using census data that they're less wealthy. Those both fit with DLP policy and philosophy.

 

[Gough]

I thought the DLP were pretty much cold showers, no NTTAWWTters and after that the policy cupboard is pretty bare.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I have a diverse group of family and friends and yes, quite a few of them could be categorised "ethnic minority".

Not that my personal view matters- I've demonstrated with plebiscite data that the areas DLP got votes are socially conservative. And I've demonstrated using census data that they're less wealthy. Those both fit with DLP policy and philosophy.

I didn't ask about your family and friends, just you. You're making a boatload of generalisations about ethnic minorities. Some are socially conservative. Others are not. The plebiscite isn't the only test of whether someone is a social conservative or not. Is that your only argument for suggesting they're "the least woke people going around"?

 

[PJays]

I didn't ask about your family and friends, just you. You're making a boatload of generalisations about ethnic minorities. Some are socially conservative. Others are not. The plebiscite isn't the only test of whether someone is a social conservative or not. Is that your only argument for suggesting they're "the least woke people going around"?

Generalisations are important in politics when you're deciding where to pitch

The initial context of all this was my recommendation that people read Somyureks 28 part twitter thread about his targeted campaign

Data points on ethnic minorities in the North West:

1. Plebiscite

2. Census - very religious areas which usually means more socially conservative.

3. Census- less wealthy, less educated areas which usually means more socially conservative than the super wealthy and highly educated

Plus of course, my own judgements and experience

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Generalisations are important in politics when you're deciding where to pitch

I think openly making generalisations about ethnic minorities is fraught with danger. It may be the case that they're socially convservative specifically for the areas in the North West of Melbourne, where as I understand it the Muslim population is high, but I'd expect it to be less so in areas where the minorities have a less rigid link to their religion, or came from less socially conservative countries.

 

[nobbyiscool]

I can keep it polite and respectful and I’d ask you to do the same. Maybe delete that post?

edited

 

[Millky95]

No room for nuance here. Two competing arguments: DLP did well in Northern Metro because of language and branding confusion, and DLP did well in Northern Metro because of disillusionment with Andrews Government.

Both are almost certainly true, rather than one or the other.

My gf almost voted for the DLP because she thought they were the ALP. She actually called me at the booth asking which was which

 

[PJays]

It may be the case that they're socially convservative specifically for the areas in the North West of Melbourne, where as I understand it the Muslim population is high, but I'd expect it to be less so in areas where the minorities have a less rigid link to their religion, or came from less socially conservative countries.

Fair point, but it's nonetheless true that most countries where migrants arrive from are more socially conservative than Australia.

This is, of course because Australia is one of the least socially conservative places on earth. Especially Victoria.

For example, 83% of the world's population live in a place where the marriage laws don't allow same sex marriage.