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List Management - Trading and Delistings

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fronkalicious said:
Understand I'm seriously in the minority there Paul, but Addison has maxed out his potential for mine (and still sucks), whereas I think another 12 months into Howard is a worthwhile investment given wed get almost nothing back for him.
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Sorry Fronk, I'm with Paulveed on this one. I agree with all he say's.
As for Howard , for the life of me have not seen anything about him that convinces me he will be an AFL footballer ( although I want desperately for him to succeed ) He has been gifted games I think based on where he was drafted.
Addison may not be the most talented of players, but he gives a real contest and is well ahead of Howard inwhat he has to offer.
 
cross#4 said:
Strong chance I won't be able to watch this. If you could please tell me how Nelson plays that would be great. Definitely want him on our list.

Someone was talking up Marlon Motlop on the D&T board a while back, will be interesting to see how he goes.
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If I go to the 'Dogs match I won't be able to either, but I plan on recording it. When I get a chance to watch it I'll let you know. :P
 
King Harold said:
Retire on their terms ? we have a history of this type of thing. No, when someone is better to take their place , then replace them. If they need to retire because they can no longer get a game, well so be it.

Has the world gone completely mad ?

As for the Boyd v Cross debate . One an all Australian just back from injury the other struggling big time with pace of todays football.
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As DogLee said, they offer "Big body's with experience." Taking Goods as an anomaly, we aren't going to draft match hardened players like Boyd and Cross anytime soon and I don't see our younger players replacing them in the next two years - so they stay.

I'm not saying that the careers of either take precedent over the good of the club, but more that with the stage the club is at both have something to offer, and injuries permitting still should for a couple more years. That being said, I agree with you, if they are overtaken or can't get a game, of course they should be retired.

I know from a few of your posts that you think Crossy is done and dusted but personally I think he's recovered from injury well and has a lot to offer a young team, he's a great overhead mark, does the 1%ers, he's courageous and a first-class trainer, which a few of our younger players have even taken direct influence from. I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this one.
 
Nath09 said:
I know from a few of your posts that you think Crossy is done and dusted but personally I think he's recovered from injury well and has a lot to offer a young team, he's a great overhead mark, does the 1%ers, he's courageous and a first-class trainer, which a few of our younger players have even taken direct influence from. I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this one.
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If the Doggies management are smart - once Crossy retires he should come in as the High Performance Manager... I can imagine him cracking the whip over a whole new generation of footballers.
 

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Nath09 said:
As DogLee said, they offer "Big body's with experience." Taking Goods as an anomaly, we aren't going to draft match hardened players like Boyd and Cross anytime soon and I don't see our younger players replacing them in the next two years - so they stay.

I'm not saying that the careers of either take precedent over the good of the club, but more that with the stage the club is at both have something to offer, and injuries permitting still should for a couple more years. That being said, I agree with you, if they are overtaken or can't get a game, of course they should be retired.

I know from a few of your posts that you think Crossy is done and dusted but personally I think he's recovered from injury well and has a lot to offer a young team, he's a great overhead mark, does the 1%ers, he's courageous and a first-class trainer, which a few of our younger players have even taken direct influence from. I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this one.
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Nath, we are in basic agreement -- I think ?
I never want these discussions to become a personal assault on one of our "true warriors " as I have said before.
But in all seriousness, if we are unable to replace Cross in the next 2 years --- holy shit , we are deeper in it than I thought. And once again I will concede , with injuries & the state of our list , he probably has to play. But did you not see the ball pinging around as he desperately tried to keep up these last few weeks ?
Going to ground at the contest as he does is the same now as it was when I played all those years ago,
you have lost a lot of whatever speed you had.
People still come up with all his positives, which no one argues about , but never the negatives.
It's all about the balance sheet , and unless something happens soon to reinvent him, that balance sheet is going further into the red fairly quickly.
I asked peviously, is there another midfielder going around with his pace and a terrible kick ?
Other than someone comparing him to Joel Corey , the silence is deafening !
 
Dav1d said:
If we get Aish, I hope we used him as a midfielder and not a backmen; because he has been compared often to Byrce Gibbs.
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Agree - worth noting that Gibbs is being used as a midfielder by Malthouse now.

If we got a gun mid who developed on the HBF for a year or two before transitioning I wouldn't complain. Macrae as a HBFer next year would be like having a second Bob Murphy for a year.
 
2nd round pick if still available and gets back to form. Definitely fills a need
 

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threenewpadlocks said:
Being just as much of a Cricket fan as I am a footy fan, this actually comes as quite of a disappointment to me.

Unless we draft him, that is.
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I agree, always prefer kids choosing cricket to AFL, kids are likely to have just a modest at best AFL career yet they could be playing cricket for Australia(and we sure as hell need it)
 
LukasTheGreat said:
I agree, always prefer kids choosing cricket to AFL, kids are likely to have just a modest at best AFL career yet they could be playing cricket for Australia(and we sure as hell need it)
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I'm more talking personally - I enjoy cricket as much if not more football, but yeah on the wider scale it's more important as well.
 
King Harold said:
Nath, we are in basic agreement -- I think ?
I never want these discussions to become a personal assault on one of our "true warriors " as I have said before.
But in all seriousness, if we are unable to replace Cross in the next 2 years --- holy shit , we are deeper in it than I thought. And once again I will concede , with injuries & the state of our list , he probably has to play. But did you not see the ball pinging around as he desperately tried to keep up these last few weeks ?
Going to ground at the contest as he does is the same now as it was when I played all those years ago,
you have lost a lot of whatever speed you had.
People still come up with all his positives, which no one argues about , but never the negatives.
It's all about the balance sheet , and unless something happens soon to reinvent him, that balance sheet is going further into the red fairly quickly.
I asked peviously, is there another midfielder going around with his pace and a terrible kick ?
Other than someone comparing him to Joel Corey , the silence is deafening !
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"but never the negatives" ?????? Sorry KH, surely you jest !!! We are constantly inundated with diatribes about Crossy's perceived ...negatives on this forum.
I grant you readily that his lack of pace is his 'second' greatest weakness. His biggest problem these days is the MC's insistence on playing him totally out of position.
Leg pace certainly is a weakness for him, but playing him off the wing, rather than in the guts where he belongs only exaggerates and exacerbates this.

As for him "going to ground". Do you mean when that is where the ball is, or are you thinking of Gia?
And re him being a "terrible kick". Perhaps so 3-5 years back, but while he will never be elite in that department, I would say that half our list would be less reliable kicks than Cross.

While I agree he is one of the slower midfielders going around on the basis of leg speed, he is still among the elite re hand speed in the league, and since Scotty West's retirement, he has few peers re peripheral vision or courage.

For mine, injury and being used the wrong way aside, Cross still potentially has 2 good years left in him. Then he should be used in some kind of mentoring/coaching function or role with our young mids.
Continuing to be used the way he has been in the last 2 years could certainly bring his career to a premature end.
 
Chris Grant said:
You have to wonder how committed he is. By the article it looks like he's only coming back to footy because he lost his contract with cricket just last week. Things got tough, so he gave up on it. That's not a good look.
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What would you do?
 

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paulveed said:
"but never the negatives" ?????? Sorry KH, surely you jest !!! We are constantly inundated with diatribes about Crossy's perceived ...negatives on this forum.
I grant you readily that his lack of pace is his 'second' greatest weakness. His biggest problem these days is the MC's insistence on playing him totally out of position.
Leg pace certainly is a weakness for him, but playing him off the wing, rather than in the guts where he belongs only exaggerates and exacerbates this.

As for him "going to ground". Do you mean when that is where the ball is, or are you thinking of Gia?
And re him being a "terrible kick". Perhaps so 3-5 years back, but while he will never be elite in that department, I would say that half our list would be less reliable kicks than Cross.

While I agree he is one of the slower midfielders going around on the basis of leg speed, he is still among the elite re hand speed in the league, and since Scotty West's retirement, he has few peers re peripheral vision or courage.

For mine, injury and being used the wrong way aside, Cross still potentially has 2 good years left in him. Then he should be used in some kind of mentoring/coaching function or role with our young mids.
Continuing to be used the way he has been in the last 2 years could certainly bring his career to a premature end.
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The issue of Crossy's position is certainly polarised these days. Even amongst my friends not all agree as to his value. As you have concluded I am now in the glass half empty camp. I believe is has become a victim of the type team he has around him. Midfielders that are not that quick and in and under types. No need to name them all , but you will know what I mean.
The game also has increased in speed , it's now all about ball movement & speed.

As for his kicking , not one of any of my mates think is is even a good kick. Is he adequate ? maybe ?
He has played mid-field basically all his career and kicked 30 goals from over 200 games.
I can also tell you from someone I know in the industry , opposition clubs are more than happy for Cross to end up with the ball. They know he will generally hold up play and kick short. you only need to watch replays to back up what I am saying.
Now this does sound silly , but I would like him tried deep forward -- what do you think ?

Anyway , I take my hat off to you -- being a glass half full man makes life a little brighter !
 
paulveed said:
"but never the negatives" ?????? Sorry KH, surely you jest !!! We are constantly inundated with diatribes about Crossy's perceived ...negatives on this forum.
I grant you readily that his lack of pace is his 'second' greatest weakness. His biggest problem these days is the MC's insistence on playing him totally out of position.
Leg pace certainly is a weakness for him, but playing him off the wing, rather than in the guts where he belongs only exaggerates and exacerbates this.

As for him "going to ground". Do you mean when that is where the ball is, or are you thinking of Gia?
And re him being a "terrible kick". Perhaps so 3-5 years back, but while he will never be elite in that department, I would say that half our list would be less reliable kicks than Cross.

While I agree he is one of the slower midfielders going around on the basis of leg speed, he is still among the elite re hand speed in the league, and since Scotty West's retirement, he has few peers re peripheral vision or courage.

For mine, injury and being used the wrong way aside, Cross still potentially has 2 good years left in him. Then he should be used in some kind of mentoring/coaching function or role with our young mids.
Continuing to be used the way he has been in the last 2 years could certainly bring his career to a premature end.
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The issue of Crossy is a polarising one, but just as a suggestion - list our midfielders from recent games.

Cooney - first one or two midfielders selected in current form
Griff - first one or two selected when available.
Libba - future midfield general
Wallis - future midfield general and leader of the club
Lower - currently #1 tagger
Stevens - brought in to assist age profile, playing reasonably well without setting world on fire
Cross - ????
Boyd - captain
Dahl - one of the few with real speed and ability to carry the ball
Smith - future midfield general and real improver this year
Macrae - been very good since debut, but a few years away.
Howard - appears lost
Tutt - improving with each game he's played this year.
Picken - playing as a small defender currently.
Vez - one game and dropped for poor workrate

Now, I may have missed a couple, I haven't fully researched this.

There are two clear groups - the automatic selections and then the options.
So Griff, Cooney and Boyd (as captain) are automatically selected. I would argue that Libba, Wallis and Smith are the same, as they are the future midfield leaders to replace the older guys as they go. They may drop in and out of the side due to age and occasional form drop offs, but they will play nearly every game they are fit for. Lower is considered the #1 tagger, so plays every week. Cannot drop Dahl.

Then it starts to get more interesting with the options. Picken is playing as a defender now. Stevens was brought in for list balance and also because he can play as an inside AND outside mid. Howard and Vez may or may not make it, Tutt has improved and Macrae is just learning. Prudden/Hrovat/Hunter etc are all in the same category.

With the possible exception of Picken, all the guys (Howard, Tutt, Macrae etc) above are not as good a player as Crossy is right now. But - these guys are potentially the future for us. We need to work out if these guys are going to make it, give them experience (for the recent draftees) and see if they can adapt to Macca's requirements and make a contribution.

If we continue to play Crossy in all games, at the expense of others, then we'll have massive drop off when he and Boyd retire. Why ? Because it'll be Libba, Wallis, Smith and then four or five 20 year olds with no AFL experience. Our rebuild will last forever.

If you play Cross ahead of Lower/Stevens/Libba/Smith/Wallis in the middle - then why did you bring them or draft them to the club. Long term we will get more benefit from Will Minson learning to play with Libba and Wallis than with Crossy. Why recruit Stevens and Lower if you aren't going to play them where needed and where they can add the most value.

This is short term pain for longer term gain. Crossy may be the #1 extractor, but other people need to learn how to do that. Otherwise we're in for a world of hurt in a few years.

Some of the guys (Vez, Howard etc) may not make it. But they should be trialled to see if they do and also because if Cross isn't playing in his preferred position, they bring leg speed and/or kicking skills to the side, which Cross doesn't have. Crossy can always come in to the side when the kids start to tire, we have injuries or playing a side without huge amounts of leg speed or experience, but when we are looking at team balance - saying he can't be dropped is dangerous.

Macca has a real difficult juggling act here. We shouldn't just dump Cross to the 2's and leave him there, as this isn't beneficial - he adds value, courage and experience. But he's not an automatic selection anymore. His weaknesses are being exploited and we need to introduce fresh blood to his role, otherwise we'll just be forever rebuilding... He needs to play another 8 - 10 games this year and maybe even next. But he needs to accept that his time is almost done and it's time to hand the reins over to the next group. And so do some of the supporters....
 
Toastman said:
Any idea who would want them? Can't picture them fitting into any starting 22. Maybe we could trade both for Watts at Melbourne, two failed picks for one. Never know, maybe they would come good over there and Watts would come good with us.
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If I was a top 8 team, I'd defiantly chuck a third rounder at Grant. His the kind of player who could flourish in a better team and different environment. See Josh Hill.
 
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