Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Max zero]

You're good, I must admit.

Of course I am.

I found it interesting looking at the history of this board. From about 2006 onwards. Have to give GuruJane credit she was the only one who talked about this issue for several years.

The silence from the leftwing posters as the bodies piled up between 2009-2010 is deafeaning.

To be fair most of the lefties back then got banned or lost bets. Think they are all back under alias' now though.

 

[Gough]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24900178/ex-defence-chief-warns-of-refugee-crimes/

A former head of defence says the Abbott government is doing its utmost to strip hope from asylum seekers, and has urged Australians to educate themselves on what he calls the government's breach of human rights standards.

Retired Admiral Chris Barrie, who was Chief of the Defence Force during the 2001 Tampa and 'Children Overboard' scandals, made the comments at a book launch in Sydney on Thursday.

"We are doing our utmost to extinguish hope," Mr Barrie said.

"We are in a country of so-called fair minded people - yet it seems we don't want to hear, or see what is being done in our name in the context of asylum seekers."

Mr Barrie, who was in charge of border protection between 1998 and 2002, accused Immigration Minister Scott Morrison of "double-handling" in returning asylum seekers to Syria and Iraq while warning of the dangers inherent in those warzones.

He said the government was violating its human rights obligations, including a fundamental principle where states are barred from returning asylum seekers to countries where they face the risk of persecution.

"The fact that we're buying orange boats to send people to back to Indonesia ... forcibly taking people from one vessel, putting them on another and sending them to a country they don't want to go to, that concerns me," Mr Barrie said.

His comments came at the launch of international law professor Jane McAdam's book, 'Refugees: Why Seeking Asylum is Legal and Australia's policies are not'.

Prof McAdams said the government's justifications in violating human rights law were not legally sound.

"They're trying to identify what the bare minimum is so that they can scrape through on a technicality," she said.

"Australia needs to be careful, that when it wants to point out the human rights violations in other countries it's not just perceived as entirely hypocritical."

Mourners are planning to gather at Sydney Town Hall on Thursday evening in a vigil for Iranian asylum seeker Hamid Kehazaei who was pronounced brain dead on Wednesday in Brisbane.

Refugee activists have alleged Mr Kehazaei died after he received inadequate medical treatment for a cut to his foot.

Goddamn bleeding heart lefty do gooders.

 

[The Coup]

So Manus was money well spent. Aren't we on the hook for a full blown University there now?

 

[GuruJane]

Originally posted Max Zero

Maybe it is? But numbers have been falling in detention for a while (due to the lack of arrivals). Eventually they are going to shut down why not shut down the one that has been more controversial first?

More efficient to just run one facility.

All the above is true, but actually the change in policy represents a big win for the people smuggler clients.

The tactic is - the aggressive "trouble makers" - usually eco migrabnts from Iran - take on the staff from the host country, provoke, threaten and incite them in order to make the dentention centre unworkable. The aggressive Tamil eco migrants tried this tactic in Nauru last year.

This is what the Iranians on Manus did which culminated in the fuzzy wuzzy retaliatory murder of Berati. Since that ghastly happening PNG government has stopped further transferees being sent to Manus and I would expect that there won't be any resettlements in PNG either.

All this was pretty much predictable ever since Rudd and swarmy Tony Burke established the Manus hell-hole and stuffed it full of men just to win an election.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

What some people can't see is that there is a difference between those that die on the sea and those that have died or neglected on land, under the care of people employed by this government.
I don't think that anything will change their point of views as will continually bring up:
labor had this policy, hundreds died at sea, people smugglers, stopping the boats and of course my favourite, destroying their documentation. Surprisingly I am unable to find out how many of the 20,00 plus destroyed their documentation. All of them, 100, 10, half, who knows? Why? Because this open and transparent government won't tell us anything, yet they were happy to stand in front of billboards telling us number of boats arriving.

Doesn't surprise me to read that the witnesses to the death of Berati are being pressured. Wonder what reaction would have been if that incident had happened in Australia and no-one had been arrested for the murder? Out of sight, out of mind.

What is the difference Maggie?

This is a serious question.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[Stumpy Pete]

Time to chalk up another victim of this terrible, terrible policy. Imagine in this day and age, dying because you cut your foot and could get no medical attention for it.
http://www.refugeeaction.org.au/?p=3461

RIP Hamid Kehazaei, killed as a result of Australian negligence.

Agree.


Regards

S. Pete

 

[The Coup]

All the above is true, but actually the change in policy represents a big win for the people smuggler clients.

The tactic is - the aggressive "trouble makers" - usually eco migrabnts from Iran - take on the staff from the host country, provoke, threaten and incite them in order to make the dentention centre unworkable. The aggressive Tamil eco migrants tried this tactic in Nauru last year.

This is what the Iranians on Manus did which culminated in the fuzzy wuzzy retaliatory murder of Berati. Since that ghastly happening PNG government has stopped further transferees being sent to Manus and I would expect that there won't be any resettlements in PNG either.

All this was pretty much predictable ever since Rudd and swarmy Tony Burke established the Manus hell-hole and stuffed it full of men just to win an election.

Are you saying that people imprisoned with no access to legal advice or any kind of resolution, deprived of their human rights and denied access to basic living standards.... act out a bit?

No shit they do. Thank god they aren't English at least, there'd be 24 hour riots.

 

[Maggie5]

What is the difference Maggie?

This is a serious question.

Regards

S. Pete

The policy for stopping the boats endorsed by both major parties was to deter people paying people smugglers from undertaking the journey via sea. People died.
You would not expect a murder and another person declared brain due to poor medical care, whilst in detention. Doubt that this would happen in a prison. Merely stating that morally the current treatment of AS is wrong.

 

[mottrain]

The policy for stopping the boats endorsed by both major parties was to deter people paying people smugglers from undertaking the journey via sea. People died.
You would not expect a murder and another person declared brain due to poor medical care, whilst in detention. Doubt that this would happen in a prison. Merely stating that morally the current treatment of AS is wrong.

No it wasn't. We had this issue on the water due to the policy then. As for the prisoner comment you are amazingly naive if you believe this.

 

[Maggie5]

No it wasn't. We had this issue on the water due to the policy then. As for the prisoner comment you are amazingly naive if you believe this.

Okay, let's get personal - I am naive.

 

[mottrain]

Okay, let's get personal - I am naive.

It is ironic you are complaining about this. It is also telling. You are using this as a diversion tactic to avoid the issue.

 

[Maggie5]

It is ironic you are complaining about this. It is also telling. You are using this as a diversion tactic to avoid the issue.

I think I have made my position VERY clear, only YOU would think otherwise. But if it stops you from one liners, I am happy to agree with you. I should really 'ignore' your posts but sometimes I find your comments amusing. It is however getting close.

 

[mottrain]

I think I have made my position VERY clear, only YOU would think otherwise. But if it stops you from one liners, I am happy to agree with you. I should really 'ignore' your posts but sometimes I find your comments amusing. It is however getting close.

Keep playing the man then bitching because GuruJane does it to you. Care to tell me how the government (or former one to be correct) is less responsible for contributing to the deaths at sea than the Manus death?

 

[Maggie5]

Keep playing the man then bitching because GuruJane does it to you. Care to tell me how the government (or former one to be correct) is less responsible for contributing to the deaths at sea than the Manus death?

Done!

 

[mottrain]

Done!

No answers guess you know you are wrong.

 

[The Coup]

Ok did this guy just figure out a loop hole?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...eis-organs-to-be-donated-20140904-10cfzh.html

Those organs arrived here illegally.

Seriously though, if that story doesn't punch you right in the guts and make you ashamed of how we treat these human beings, you have no heart.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

The policy for stopping the boats endorsed by both major parties was to deter people paying people smugglers from undertaking the journey via sea. People died.
You would not expect a murder and another person declared brain due to poor medical care, whilst in detention. Doubt that this would happen in a prison. Merely stating that morally the current treatment of AS is wrong.

I don't think youve answered the question at all.

Effectively my quesions is this - you and I both agree that the Australian Government must take some responibility for each person who dies while being held in immigration detention facilities. But do we both also agree that the Australian Government must take some responsbility for each person who dies while journeying to Australia via boat?

Regards

S. Pete

 

[Stumpy Pete]

Ok did this guy just figure out a loop hole?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...eis-organs-to-be-donated-20140904-10cfzh.html

Those organs arrived here illegally.

Seriously though, if that story doesn't punch you right in the guts and make you ashamed of how we treat these human beings, you have no heart.

Coup,

A question for you - do you think people who support deterrence based policies have no compassion for those persons being held in immigration detention facilities?

Regards

S. Pete

 

[The Coup]

No I think it would be silly to suggest that people can't have a range of opinions on this matter, but ultimately I'd find it hard to believe anyone would be happy with the way people are held in detention. It simply isn't acceptable even for criminals, and these people have not been found guilty of any crime. I think it was over the top of Rudd to reinstate Manus and Nauru, and I'm glad Morrisson is getting rid of it, though obviously both major parties are complicit in its use over multiple governments. Outsourcing what is effectively torture is just really sick. Once here the process should be similar to the USA - two weeks in detention for health and security checks (if you bring your documentation as many - but not all - currently do, if you don't you run the risk of staying longer as per current processes) then let them get out and work while the claim is assessed quickly. Put the money saved into better management of asylum seekers once they arrive (we are already world class n that regard) as well as returning hundreds of millions to the taxpayer. That's my opinion on detention. As for deterrence:

A lot of Aussies believe in the "tough love" approach and genuinely believe if we make it hard to get here and stop the boats coming, then its a good thing because nobody will drown. I definitely dont believe the government is culpable for deaths at sea unless they were actually told of a sinking boat and didnt respond. You can't control some things as a sovereign nation.

I dont think anyone could look at Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan right now and say these are safe places for ethnic minorities. Our country did play a role in that, and some of the people fleeing those countries have worked as interpreters and assisted our soldiers while they were at war. As a result they're now being hunted. Those guys need a specific avenue for them and their families to get here quickly, assisted by our military if necessary (this was being discussed at one point I believe). There's a myth that there is an endless amount of countries between say Iran and Australia, and that Iranians should go to one of those countries instead. In fact there are no signatories to the UN charter between mesopotamia and Australia, we are literally the first country they can go to (if travelling East) and apply for some resolution of their refugee status and begin a new life. The poverty and exploitation in camps camps kills people and about 99% of those who to UN camps don't get placed in a new country. They are not viewed as a place to seek asylum, but a place to live in limbo. So I understand the attraction of Australia, as it may be quite literally the only destination they can get to from where they are (I noticed on the Malaysian airlines flight that went down there were two Iranians flying via China to Europe on stolen passports to claim asylum, that's the other option for them, but it gets expensive to buy a whole family stolen passports, and its harder to get them for kids). Take the UN Camp set up in Quetta, Pakistan for the Hazara people fleeing the Taliban - the schools for the Shia Hazara children are bombed and shot at, their markets bombed etc so they actually end up having to flee from the country they fled to for shelter. Its a ****ed up part of the world and entire races can get liquidated, its a very real nightmare of a joint.

So yeah I just don't think any deterrence method can be 100% effective, because the push factor can often be simply too big. And some people will drown if they take the risk on those boats and our navy can't get tot hem in time. but I reckon once they're here, they can no longer be part of any "deterrance" because they have individual rights at that point, and I'd like to think Australians respect human rights enough that even if we want to make a political statement or deterrent, that we respect that throwing unsupervised children into a tropical prison with young males and that sort of thing is just really repulsive and really, completely, below the standards of the kind of country I expect Australia to be.

 

[Maggie5]

I don't think youve answered the question at all.

Effectively my quesions is this - you and I both agree that the Australian Government must take some responibility for each person who dies while being held in immigration detention facilities. But do we both also agree that the Australian Government must take some responsbility for each person who dies while journeying to Australia via boat?

Regards

S. Pete

Okay, now I understand. I don't know what your position is as to the second part of your question but would be interested to know, but for mine, the answer is no. I can't see how that it is the responsibility of the government as surely they undertake the journey knowing the risks involved.

 

[Max zero]

No I think it would be silly to suggest that people can't have a range of opinions on this matter, but ultimately I'd find it hard to believe anyone would be happy with the way people are held in detention. It simply isn't acceptable even for criminals, and these people have not been found guilty of any crime. I think it was over the top of Rudd to reinstate Manus and Nauru, and I'm glad Morrisson is getting rid of it, though obviously both major parties are complicit in its use over multiple governments. Outsourcing what is effectively torture is just really sick. Once here the process should be similar to the USA - two weeks in detention for health and security checks (if you bring your documentation as many - but not all - currently do, if you don't you run the risk of staying longer as per current processes) then let them get out and work while the claim is assessed quickly. Put the money saved into better management of asylum seekers once they arrive (we are already world class n that regard) as well as returning hundreds of millions to the taxpayer. That's my opinion on detention. As for deterrence:

A lot of Aussies believe in the "tough love" approach and genuinely believe if we make it hard to get here and stop the boats coming, then its a good thing because nobody will drown. I definitely dont believe the government is culpable for deaths at sea unless they were actually told of a sinking boat and didnt respond. You can't control some things as a sovereign nation.

I dont think anyone could look at Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan right now and say these are safe places for ethnic minorities. Our country did play a role in that, and some of the people fleeing those countries have worked as interpreters and assisted our soldiers while they were at war. As a result they're now being hunted. Those guys need a specific avenue for them and their families to get here quickly, assisted by our military if necessary (this was being discussed at one point I believe). There's a myth that there is an endless amount of countries between say Iran and Australia, and that Iranians should go to one of those countries instead. In fact there are no signatories to the UN charter between mesopotamia and Australia, we are literally the first country they can go to (if travelling East) and apply for some resolution of their refugee status and begin a new life. The poverty and exploitation in camps camps kills people and about 99% of those who to UN camps don't get placed in a new country. They are not viewed as a place to seek asylum, but a place to live in limbo. So I understand the attraction of Australia, as it may be quite literally the only destination they can get to from where they are (I noticed on the Malaysian airlines flight that went down there were two Iranians flying via China to Europe on stolen passports to claim asylum, that's the other option for them, but it gets expensive to buy a whole family stolen passports, and its harder to get them for kids). Take the UN Camp set up in Quetta, Pakistan for the Hazara people fleeing the Taliban - the schools for the Shia Hazara children are bombed and shot at, their markets bombed etc so they actually end up having to flee from the country they fled to for shelter. Its a ****** up part of the world and entire races can get liquidated, its a very real nightmare of a joint.

So yeah I just don't think any deterrence method can be 100% effective, because the push factor can often be simply too big. And some people will drown if they take the risk on those boats and our navy can't get tot hem in time. but I reckon once they're here, they can no longer be part of any "deterrance" because they have individual rights at that point, and I'd like to think Australians respect human rights enough that even if we want to make a political statement or deterrent, that we respect that throwing unsupervised children into a tropical prison with young males and that sort of thing is just really repulsive and really, completely, below the standards of the kind of country I expect Australia to be.

No one is happy with detention.

But it works. Thats the simple facts. The 'tough love' approach not only reduces the amount of deaths at sea but ultimately reduces the number of people in detention.

We tried the humanitarian way. Its what caused the problem to flare up again. Its what got people dead in the water and in detention.

I'm all for alternative solutions but if its just a rehash of Rudd's approach you are just wasting everyone's time.

 

[Gough]

Is it not possible there might be another way? One that doesn't involve people drowning at sea or tortured on land?

 

[The Coup]

I'm not sure there is any evidence that suggest mistreating people in detention stops people coming on boats.

The boat turnaround and the risk of dying at sea would be more than enough of a deterrent, and you'd think anyone who would still risk it should be given at least basic standards of care and not remain in detentino indefinitely. Especially in a country like PNG.

And once you start using torture (and let's call it that, because that's what it is - punishing people convicted of nothing, with horrible conditions and no liberty) as a deterrent against future arrivals, how far do you go?

If they keep coming do we just start flaying people? A Ghengis Khan like pyramid of severed heads at the border perhaps?

I'm uncomfortable with Australia using any kind of terrorist tactic, particularly against the innocent.

 

[Jakko]

Call my cynical, but going by the profile photo of this young man, it seems he may have had at least a middle class upbringing in Iran (that's not a judgement on his claim for refugee status, because I don't know), I would assume he knows how to look after a cut on the foot?

If medical attention was denied, then that is a serious matter. I'm not the type to think that our medical people would deliberately mistreat, or not treat someone who needs it. Anything is possible I guess.

Are those claiming mistreatment suggesting that even basic "duty nurse" type of care is denied to detainees? We are talking about dressing and cleaning of a wound once or twice a day....

Did this young man view a foot infection as a ticket to the mainland? Something is amiss in all of this, but I don't know what.

 

[The Coup]

They're in a very tropical environment don't forget. A cut doesn't just heal there the way it does in Melbourne or Adelaide's climate. You have bad nutrition, lack of activity, serious mental health problems and acute depression all as contributing factors to any injury. There's a lot of diseases in those jungles and the sanitation isn't great from all reports.

And yes, judging by the comments from the outgoing director of the medical service, it's reasonable to assume that even basic care is not provided (and remember, any access to care has to be approved by those PNG guards who murdered a guy, how helpful do you reckon they are?).

The place was a nightmare the first time round, its worse this time because of how enthusiastically we went back in. The fact we're leaving again after wasting billions on Manus (again) is just stupidity on an epic scale by both major parties.

When do we have to build them that university by again?