Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[romeoh]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...efugees?_ga=1.259283530.1178457234.1387536925

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees

Looks like a credible article too!

 

[Slax]

The rest of the world doesn't give a stuff re Australia and its carbon tax.

You might be surprised. When you add that in with the current stance on same-sex marriage, which is so out of touch with every other major Industrialised nation except Ireland, out Human Rights record and the fact we are seen as a puppet for the USA when they want to go to war, it's little wonder we have become a laughing stock internationally with only a fraction of the respect we had 25 years ago.

 

[GuruJane]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...efugees?_ga=1.259283530.1178457234.1387536925

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees

This is a no brainer Meds. Predicted it some time ago and got abused by the usual suspects.

So easy for criminal gangs to game the system just like they coach their customers to do - Captain Emad in January 2010 being a prime example here.

 

[pazza]

The problem with your comment is that your desires are just pie in the sky wish thinking with no means to attain them.

I would love it if there were no wars or poverty in the world. Who doesn't but how to we achieve that?

Rudd tried the 'humanitarian way' and look at the results. Southern Europe is trying the 'humanitarian way' and look how well its going for them.

What would you do different? Why would your humanitarian way not end up with the same results? Why should we trust you gamble with thousands of lives when the track record of your approach contains nothing but failure and death?

Rudd's way wasn't humanitarian at all..it was just a lighter version of the previous and current policy.

The truly humanitarian way is the way I have listed, primarily the last sentence. Give our diplomats something important to do.

 

[Maggie5]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...efugees?_ga=1.259283530.1178457234.1387536925

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees

Come on medusala, you are better than this. What sort of article can you believe from unidentified "operative'?
Not difficult for the journalist to make up this story especially if the starting point is what you believe.

Doubt that you what accept this type of link refuting what has been Brown has written.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...efugees?_ga=1.259283530.1178457234.1387536925

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees

Hahahahaha

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Hahahahaha

Come on Lunchlady, it's strategically brilliant. Spend money risking possible death and indefinite detention to start a clandestine DAESH guerilla force on Australian soil.

JUst as well for them that they don't attempt that failed method of brainwashing disaffected youth that already reside here.

 

[noddy]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...efugees?_ga=1.259283530.1178457234.1387536925

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees

Meds has always been an apologist for the far right element but surely he is not serious with this little gem.

 

[Max zero]

Rudd's way wasn't humanitarian at all..it was just a lighter version of the previous and current policy.

The truly humanitarian way is the way I have listed, primarily the last sentence. Give our diplomats something important to do.

Will it work? Can you show an example of a country using this 'truely' humane system and it working?

If it does not work are we going to be fishing bodies out of the water again?

 

[romeoh]

Will it work? Can you show an example of a country using this 'truely' humane system and it working?

If it does not work are we going to be fishing bodies out of the water again?

So, what are your ideas for helping the global community deal with people who live in terrible places trying to find a better life for their children?

 

[GuruJane]

Meds has always been an apologist for the far right element but surely he is not serious with this little gem.

How sweetly naiive you are to keep denying what the islamistfascists are capable of when there is so much evidence now.
Inflitrating 4000 cadres into west countries via the Med refugee boats is so easy peasy fhs. They'd have to be idiots not to do it.

 

[romeoh]

How sweetly naiive you are to keep denying what the islamistfascists are capable of when there is so much evidence now.
Inflitrating 4000 cadres into west countries via the Med refugee boats is so easy peasy fhs. They'd have to be idiots not to do it.

But what is your point? Yep-there are many silly people getting enticed to join extremist organizations. It is happening undoubtably everywhere in the world. Many of those who go off to join up are born in the country they leave. How do you propose dealing with the problem? Cut funding to the very bodies who might have a chance of stopping them? (one of Tone's solutions!)

 

[pazza]

Will it work? Can you show an example of a country using this 'truely' humane system and it working?

If it does not work are we going to be fishing bodies out of the water again?

No-one has ever tried it.

 

[Max zero]

So, what are your ideas for helping the global community deal with people who live in terrible places trying to find a better life for their children?

Your asking if I had a plan to save the world. No I don't so that's why I'm not trying too. Putting in a half assed just to say you are doing something will help no one.

Past history seems to show your plan just makes things worse.

 

[Max zero]

No-one has ever tried it.

So how do you know it will work?

If it fails (which seems to happen often with this type of approach) are we going to have a lot of dead people again?

 

[pazza]

So how do you know it will work?

If it fails (which seems to happen often with this type of approach) are we going to have a lot of dead people again?

Whilst the policy currently in play works, it violates international law and actually breaks the very convention (that being the Geneva Convention) that we co-wrote and were the first bloody signatories too. In effect, Abbott and co could be taken to The hague and charged under the current policies. Nice one geniuses.

So we need to look at an approach that is humane, LEGAL and reasonable.

 

[romeoh]

Your asking if I had a plan to save the world. No I don't so that's why I'm not trying too. Putting in a half assed just to say you are doing something will help no one.

Past history seems to show your plan just makes things worse.

U cannot be cereal- do nothing is better than trying something-is that your plan? Yep, that oughta do it. Way to go Maxy.

 

[Max zero]

U cannot be cereal- do nothing is better than trying something-is that your plan? Yep, that oughta do it. Way to go Maxy.

Rudd 'tried something' was that an improvement in the status quo? Italy 'tried something' are things now better?

Are we giving rewards for trying now?

If the 'doing something' gets a 1000 dead and 2000 in detention then yes doing nothing (ie continuing Howard's polices) would of been a damn fine idea.

 

[Max zero]

Whilst the policy currently in play works, it violates international law and actually breaks the very convention (that being the Geneva Convention) that we co-wrote and were the first bloody signatories too. In effect, Abbott and co could be taken to The hague and charged under the current policies. Nice one geniuses.

So we need to look at an approach that is humane, LEGAL and reasonable.

So you would rather something that is legal but creates death and suffering rather then something illegal that prevents that?

 

[romeoh]

Rudd 'tried something' was that an improvement in the status quo? Italy 'tried something' are things now better?

Are we giving rewards for trying now?

If the 'doing something' gets a 1000 dead and 2000 in detention then yes doing nothing (ie continuing Howard's polices) would of been a damn fine idea.

So we keep trying- and we get better at it, and we find things that do work and if we don't-better to go down swinging surely?
Those people made the very big decision to leave their homeland-they were prepared to take the risk, that is how badly they wanted to get out.
How came you don't feel concerned about the living-are you content to let them waste away in their homelands.

 

[medusala]

Come on medusala, you are better than this. What sort of article can you believe from unidentified "operative'?

The threat from refugees in Europe has long been recognised by security services. A number have been involved in UK terrorist activity. Given Schengen they only have to get to mainland Europe

Europe has woken up, it seems unfortunately many in Australia are blind to the obvious.

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu...egal-immigration-poses-security-threat-europe

Many immigrants reaching Italy’s shores cannot or do not want to be identified, posing a security threat to the whole of Europe in terms of terrorism and criminal infiltration, says Alessandro de Pedys, the Italian Ambassador to Poland

http://www.onenewspage.com/n/Market...-Threatens-Europe-With-Flood-Of-Jihadists.htm

This time it was its foreign minister and leader of the Independent Greeks party - Syriza's junion coalition partner - Nikos Kotzias, who showed how to bluff like the best of them, when he threatened that "*there will be tens of millions of immigrants and thousands of jihadists, if you take out Greece*" the minister said on before EU foreign ministers meeting in Riga.

 

[Max zero]

So we keep trying- and we get better at it, and we find things that do work and if we don't-better to go down swinging surely?
Those people made the very big decision to leave their homeland-they were prepared to take the risk, that is how badly they wanted to get out.
How came you don't feel concerned about the living-are you content to let them waste away in their homelands.

And how many die along the way before we rethink our approach? 2000 downed? 3000? 5000?

You are basically treating those dead as 'acceptable losses' because to you the ends justifies the means.

 

[romeoh]

And how many die along the way before we rethink our approach? 2000 downed? 3000? 5000?

You are basically treating those dead as 'acceptable losses' because to you the ends justifies the means.

Nope I am just saying let's try to find solutions instead of throwing our hands in the air and saying 'too hard'. This situation is not going away, so the global community needs to keep looking for ways.
Seriously Max, change the record-why do you constantly focus on the past, maybe look for the future and ways forward. Concentrate on the living. We can't undo what has happened but we can get better, that is what being human is about.

 

[Gough]

Two more folks for you to start kicking around,.
http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ts-is-a-moral-and-legal-failure-say-academics

The first academic analysis of Australia’s “turning back” of asylum seeker boats concludes the policy is a fatally risky, moral and legal failure that is “severely damaging” the country’s reputation.

The University of Queensland study, which examines all 29 interceptions of boats under the Howard and Abbott governments from 2001, finds while there is no conclusive evidence the policy has saved lives, as many as eight people have died as a result of it.

The risk of death or serious injury at sea, including to Australian officials, remains elevated with the ongoing incentive for migrants to sabotage vessels in a bid to thwart forced returns to Indonesia or Sri Lanka, the study says.

“Given the official secrecy surrounding this topic, it is not possible to say with certainty that there have not been further cases of death or injury,” it says.

UQ researchers Andreas Schloenhardt and Colin Craig argue the singular achievement of halting the arrival of irregular migrants is “greatly outweighed” by factors also including the diplomatic effect of making Australia’s commitment to international refugee laws “meaningless”.

They conclude: “It is difficult to advocate, support and sustain this policy in these circumstances.”

Schloenhardt, a law professor and organised crime expert who came to the topic via his research of people smuggling, told Guardian Australia the government’s dishonesty about the fact it was flouting those laws through “towbacks” was “appalling”.

He said the nature of what took place during forced returns of mostly genuine asylum seekers – which have been kept secret by the government since last year – would make the public “think twice about this policy and whether it’s really the best way of stopping people smuggling”.

“Most people are not aware of the circumstances of returns, what happens on these boats, how few [towbacks] there have really been and all these other factors that flow into that,” Schloenhardt said.

“They just think, ok, there’s no more boats coming, that’s all we really care about.”

The study chronicles the frequency of dangerous incidents during forced returns by the navy and customs, from drownings to fatal explosions after engine sabotage and mechanical failures in unseaworthy boats towed at length.

It takes aim at Abbott’s comments as opposition leader about the “success” of the policy under Howard – when he said there was “no reason why [the navy] can’t do it safely again” – dismissing them as “a misrepresentation by any standard”.

Schloenhardt said in both eras of the policy, there had been “a very consistent pattern” of passengers taking desperate steps, including self harm and violence, to avoid “towbacks”.

He said it was striking how common these incidents were, as well as how few boats were actually turned back under Howard (four of 14 intercepted).

The law professor said Australia was unique in the way it broke its international refugee obligations and laws at sea, shifting the burden to countries like Indonesia and Malaysia with no such obligations.

Those countries tolerated underground societies of hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants, partly as a source of cheap labour but mainly because it was cheaper than detaining or deporting them in great numbers, he said.

Instead of accepting and protecting asylum seekers, Australia was repelling them in circumstances where it could not guarantee they would safely reach Indonesian shores – much less be protected from the risk of exploitation, arbitrary jailing or return to their original place of persecution, Schloenhardt said.

“There are international treaties and guidelines on this whole topic of people smuggling and none of them envisage the sorts of responses we have cooked up,” he said.

“We have a situation where international refugee laws are completely and utterly meaningless for Australia and the government is simply so dishonest about that. That is what is so frustrating for me.

“The government should have been honest and say we don’t want to be bound by these obligations and withdraw our signature. Of course it’s politically very unpopular, it paints us in a very bad light internationally, but this is the effect that all of this has.

“The resettlement of people in refugee camps in third countries is a nice thing to do, very humanitarian, but it’s got nothing to do with the refugee convention, which says if people show up, look after them and don’t send them back.”

The Australian government was “quite ignorant” of the negative publicity it was gaining worldwide on the issue, especially in Europe.

Irregular migrant numbers in countries like Austria (70,000 a year) – where Schloenhardt spends half the year as a research fellow at the University of Vienna – dwarf Australia even at its 2013 peak of 20,587.

“Certainly in Europe where there are a lot of organisations dealing with refugees, they all think this is completely crazy, what the Australians are doing,” Schloenhardt said.

“In Italy, where in the first month this year they had 6,000 arrivals by boat, they debate to what lengths they go to to rescue these people not about what they can do to stop them coming in the first place.”

While the number of deaths that have occurred among asylum seekers trying to reach Australia by boat has been estimated at 1550, Schloenhardt said the true number – was likely twice that.

• This story was amended on 13 March to correct the year that irregular migrant numbers peaked in Australia.

Apparently there are more displaced people at the moment than any time since the end of WWII.

 

[GuruJane]

Two more folks for you to start kicking around,.
http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ts-is-a-moral-and-legal-failure-say-academics

Apparently there are more displaced people at the moment than any time since the end of WWII.

Where's the link to this study?