Society/Culture Unionism is holding Australia back

[Lebbo73]

You read the reply, that's exactly what happened, and starting a conversation and naming and accusing can get you into real bad trouble, whether it is provable or not , if you don't believe these things CM86, then I'd say you have not experienced standover. Or manipulation between some not so nice union people and business leaders who are "in the game".

So really, be sensible, and realise that there are people who will go to the extent of threatening, which is frightening enough, then there are those that go one further and go about, a week, or a month, or a year later, fire bomb someones car or truck when the victim is't in it , or down the track bash someone who doesn't toe the line , its happened , and this a is hypothetical commentary from me , no one knows, no one can prove anything , and decent union rank and file and decent people in business, can get very very frightened , I don't get your disbelief mate?

But industry has its types all over believe me.

This post might have been good about 3 years ago.

 

[JoondalupJ]

This post might have been good about 3 years ago.

It goes on Judah....... it goes on>

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Zombie thread! Kill it! KILL IT!!!

 

[Pessimistic]

The main thing making the country uncompetitive is rampant inflation, particularly in housing costs.

Which incidentally is increasing the wealth gap, which unions are as 'needed' as they ever have been

 

[CM86]

You read the reply, that's exactly what happened, and starting a conversation and naming and accusing can get you into real bad trouble, whether it is provable or not , if you don't believe these things CM86, then I'd say you have not experienced standover. Or manipulation between some not so nice union people and business leaders who are "in the game".

So really, be sensible, and realise that there are people who will go to the extent of threatening, which is frightening enough, then there are those that go one further and go about, a week, or a month, or a year later, fire bomb someones car or truck when the victim is't in it , or down the track bash someone who doesn't toe the line , its happened , and this a is hypothetical commentary from me , no one knows, no one can prove anything , and decent union rank and file and decent people in business, can get very very frightened , I don't get your disbelief mate?

But industry has its types all over believe me.

What a shitty bump.

I was asking him where these fire bombings were happening.

Can you tell me where they were happening, and what union was suspected?

Manipulation, threats, stand-over tactics, of course.
Fire bombing in an Australian city, without making the news?

 

[skilts]

Fire bombing in an Australian city, without making the news?

To my knowledge, the last time firebombings by unionists occurred was during the wharf strikes in Melbourne, circa 1927.

 

[Pessimistic]

To my knowledge, the last time firebombings by unionists occurred was during the wharf strikes in Melbourne, circa 1927.

Britain has bombed us since then, nukes a bit more pwerful too

 

[Seeds]

The main thing making the country uncompetitive is rampant inflation, particularly in housing costs.

Which incidentally is increasing the wealth gap, which unions are as 'needed' as they ever have been

Rampant inflation? Are you talking about asset prices?

 

[Pessimistic]

Rampant inflation? Are you talking about asset prices?

Dont nitpick. I mean the real cost of living not some fancy government construct

And you probably know exactly what I mean

 

[Power Raid]

The main thing making the country uncompetitive is rampant inflation, particularly in housing costs.

Which incidentally is increasing the wealth gap, which unions are as 'needed' as they ever have been

I'd prefer to fix the property price problem directly, simply and effectively rather than feed the monster that is part of the problem.

 

[Seeds]

Dont nitpick. I mean the real cost of living not some fancy government construct

And you probably know exactly what I mean

Asset prices is not a government construct in any shape or form. Real cost of living for society on average is falling not growing over time by the way. Although there is a large inter generational gap between the cost of living if you count the purchase price of homes in the cost of living. Thus my question about asset prices.

 

[Schism]

I was in the AMWU for almost a decade and now work in construction, nobody has ever stood over me, and i've never seen anything like that

mind you i'm a 115kg ex-grunt and ex-bikie. But even so.

People are full of s**t basically.

 

[Pessimistic]

Asset prices is not a government construct in any shape or form. Real cost of living for society on average is falling not growing over time by the way. Although there is a large inter generational gap between the cost of living if you count the purchase price of homes in the cost of living. Thus my question about asset prices.

The discussion is about why australia is uncompettive in many industries. Wages are high and housing costs are high. You can dance around the wording but the economy is what it is

"If you count the cost of purchasing homes? It the real world princess. Even if you rent the costs are high

 

[Pessimistic]

T suggest corruption or anti competitive practices in the construction industry begins and ends in unionism is fanciful

 

[Seeds]

The discussion is about why australia is uncompettive in many industries. Wages are high and housing costs are high. You can dance around the wording but the economy is what it is

"If you count the cost of purchasing homes? It the real world princess. Even if you rent the costs are high

Um ok now you have swapped sides of the argument. If wages are high then the cost of living is low. High wages means low cost of living. However high wages makes us uncompetitive in labour intensive sectors relative to countries with low wages and high cost of living. If we were competitive then it would either mean we have developed some super technology that we weren't sharing with the rest of the world that offset our high real wages or our real wages had fallen because we had become a poor country with high cost of living.

 

[Seeds]

T suggest corruption or anti competitive practices in the construction industry begins and ends in unionism is fanciful

It's union or governments influenced by unions. Take your pick. There are no other actors that be anti competitive against the industry.

 

[Chameleon75]

It's union or governments influenced by unions. Take your pick. There are no other actors that be anti competitive against the industry.

Bid rigging?

 

[Pessimistic]

Um ok now you have swapped sides of the argument. If wages are high then the cost of living is low. High wages means low cost of living. However high wages makes us uncompetitive in labour intensive sectors relative to countries with low wages and high cost of living. If we were competitive then it would either mean we have developed some super technology that we weren't sharing with the rest of the world that offset our high real wages or our real wages had fallen because we had become a poor country with high cost of living.

Where do you start. My statements are simple and to the point

 

[Power Raid]

The discussion is about why australia is uncompettive in many industries. Wages are high and housing costs are high. You can dance around the wording but the economy is what it is

"If you count the cost of purchasing homes? It the real world princess. Even if you rent the costs are high

The world fought so hard to shift from being serfs to landlords, the cultural resistance to change is too great for democracy.

Unfortunately the cost of not changing our ideas on property will cost the average joe and the poor the most.

Socialist policy needs to be implemented to lower the asset class cost and the benefit to the Govt rather than the individual.

 

[CD Xbow]

Like the Feminism movement, it had its time and place but going on for the point of going does more harm than good.

Unionism has grown from beyond looking out for the best interests of employees to power and control. Measures taken to protect workers and their rights go against the fundamental principals of our chosen economic system and in many cases undermines the workers as a whole.

I think unions have their place in order to represent worker rights in terms of the conditions of employment, because employers neglect their responsibilities as employers and often treat workers as a liability instead of the asset they are.

However, some of the fundamental principals of unionism create massive employment barriers for prospective employees. Minimum wage rate has caused chronic unemployment issues with younger people, especially during harder economic times. Are you going to pay minimum wage to a young inexperienced kid or someone mature with more experience? It is a bad deal for younger potential employees, they do not have the option to compete for employment.

Younger people often have significantly lower personal overheads, many live with family or in shared accommodation, they are usually in a better position to exchange lower remuneration for the opportunity to gain vital training and work experience. With minimum wages this cost is an additional burden to the employer which makes younger people less attractive to employ.

Younger people are more likely to be on welfare payments for longer, have lower prospects for employment and get less experience by the time they mature than they would with a supply and demand system. Working, even for less, is a better alternative to a welfare state.

Defined minimum wages have made us unable to competitive in some markets, there would be significant more opportunity for part time and casual work for less hours for more people in performing work for some industries where we are competing against significantly lower foreign wage rates and destroying our own industries. While the average person needs a significant income to meet their requirements, not everyone does, there are many people who could be productive but are not because they are at risk of losing welfare benefits for working at all, even on a casual or part time basis.

Our welfare system makes it to easy for people to get on it and too hard for people to get off it. It doesn't empower people to work or maintain a level of self-respect, people are looked down who are on welfare and there are massive employment barriers for people who have been on them for too long.

Our welfare system could encourage people to take lower paying work without losing benefits for a period of time, would allow them to gain much needed experience and develop social skills required, it would help promote productivity rather than sloth and waste.

Unfair dismissal protection is another problematic aspect of unionism, if the employer doesn't think the employee is suited for the position any longer he should be able to let go the employee, the principal of unfair dismissal was appropriate back in ye olden days where jobs were often a lifetime commitment, that isn't the case any longer. We have massive barriers now which makes it very hard to remove poorly efficient employees, especially where militant unions are involved. This makes it an even bigger decision for employers about who they let through the doors.

Easing up on draconian rules of employment would make employers more willing to employ, more willing to give ****ups with poor employment history a go at lower wage rates until they prove themselves, more willing to give kids out of school opportunity at a fair rate given their lack of skills and usually lack of physical conditioning for many jobs to do them as productive as a mature worker.

A problem we have is the moral compass of employers is broken, many do not invest in their employees, most value short-term profit over long-term growth because they employ CEOs and reward them for achieving short-term benchmarks and the bottom dollar looks better if you fire people and overwork the ones remaining int he short-term but is often destructive to the business long-term.

We don't need unions because the health, happiness and well-being of the employee should be of paramount importance of the employee, the business and the shareholder.

We are stuck in an old system, a defunct one and it is causing significant harm to our nation economically and socially. We need to overhaul our system, our way of thinking before our bloated system becomes too big a mess to resolve like it has for other nations.

You are very naïve to believe workers can trust employers to look after the "health, happiness and well-being of the employee", worker need unions to ensure their rights, conditions etc, and this has only happened after centuries of struggle. If anything the unions now are weaker than they were, politics has taken a big lurch to the right, the left is weak and pretty much in disarray. Indeed a bigger threat to our well being is the rise of Fascism this century, I expect Russia and China to continue their journey toward becoming classic Fascist states, the 'nasty' right is becoming influential in the European democracies and then in the US there is a possibility of President Trump. Unions are the least of our problems.

 

[Pessimistic]

President Trump is going to look out for 'the little guy'.

I can confidently predict this wont eventuate, and will be nowhere near the level of the great liberal or labour reformers in history

 

[Power Raid]

You are very naïve to believe workers can trust employers to look after the "health, happiness and well-being of the employee", worker need unions to ensure their rights, conditions etc, and this has only happened after centuries of struggle. If anything the unions now are weaker than they were, politics has taken a big lurch to the right, the left is weak and pretty much in disarray. Indeed a bigger threat to our well being is the rise of Fascism this century, I expect Russia and China to continue their journey toward becoming classic Fascist states, the 'nasty' right is becoming influential in the European democracies and then in the US there is a possibility of President Trump. Unions are the least of our problems.

unions were a very necessary step in the evolution of the work place but their job, method and relevance finished in the 60s. Workers have no chance if they think criminal organisations, with zero ethics and with zero care for workers is the solution. Adding to that union's metholodology simply won't work with modern communication, modern surveillance, globalisation and less trade barriers.

Workers should appreciate joining a union is a breach of trust. It's like marrying a girl and finding out she's invited the family to live with you and letting the family decide what's best for the relationship. It doesn't work at home ad it doesn't work in the work place either.


The importance of health, happiness and well being in the work place is extremely important, in fact I would say a priority. Modern work places shouldn't rely on a "top down" approach to any issue including health, happiness and well being. These issues should be lead by both employees and employers. 99% of bosses would love to know their workers are happy and healthy and better still 100% of bosses would love it that workers self manage and regulate (it means less work and less confrontation).

If your place of work isn't happy and healthy, just ask yourself what needs to change and how would you implement it?

 

[Pessimistic]

unions were a very necessary step in the evolution of the work place but their job, method and relevance finished in the 60s. Workers have no chance if they think criminal organisations, with zero ethics and with zero care for workers is the solution. Adding to that union's metholodology simply won't work with modern communication, modern surveillance, globalisation and less trade barriers.

Workers should appreciate joining a union is a breach of trust. It's like marrying a girl and finding out she's invited the family to live with you and letting the family decide what's best for the relationship. It doesn't work at home ad it doesn't work in the work place either.


The importance of health, happiness and well being in the work place is extremely important, in fact I would say a priority. Modern work places shouldn't rely on a "top down" approach to any issue including health, happiness and well being. These issues should be lead by both employees and employers. 99% of bosses would love to know their workers are happy and healthy and better still 100% of bosses would love it that workers self manage and regulate (it means less work and less confrontation).

If your place of work isn't happy and healthy, just ask yourself what needs to change and how would you implement it?

just do a search on FIFA qatar workers or something

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Workers should appreciate joining a union is a breach of trust. It's like marrying a girl and finding out she's invited the family to live with you and letting the family decide what's best for the relationship. It doesn't work at home ad it doesn't work in the work place either.

Nonsense, even by your lofty standards of balderdash

 

[Power Raid]

Nonsense, even by your lofty standards of balderdash

Unless of course it is disclosed up front