Recommitted Dustin Martin [re-signed]

[ReaperX]

Hawthorn just get deals done. Sure, maybe the preference would have been $1M over 3 years rather than 2, but at the end of the day Hawthorn just needed to get it done.

When it comes to Martin he'll be getting a deal no matter where he goes that will see Richmond get the top compensation possible. This will be a first rounder after your first pick. You can spin that pick into whatever you like but that's all it will be.

Richmond won't match. Clubs have shown time and time again that they do not want to risk having to keep a player on a big contract that has shown they want out. It would breed contempt among the list knowing that this player is on mega bucks and isn't committed to the cause. They'll take the pick and they'll move on. Perhaps hoping to land a FA of their own.

Richmond won't match if the compensation pick turns out to be a Top 5 pick.

Richmond will match if the compensation pick is outside of that range due to us having a good year, and in that scenario, we'll request that a club either trades us a Top 5 pick, or finds a way to get their hands on 2 mid first round picks, and trades them to us.

With that said, if we have a good year, Dusty won't leave. He'll only leave if we're a Bottom 4 or 5 side.

So you're most likely right in the sense that Richmond won't match, because we won't need to. If Dusty's leaving, it'll be because we were s**t in 2017, and the compo pick offered will mean that we won't need to.

But if we finish in a high position in 2017 and he did for some reason still want to leave, we'll be matching and going against the trend, because we're not going to take unders for Dusty, and a compo pick that was like 12 or 13 in the draft would be unders by itself.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Top 5 pick mate.

The question's answer is based entirely on the second part of the question, the "according to your finishing position" part.

The "additional first round pick" part has almost no bearing, because a first round pick can be anywhere between 1-18, and they have vastly different values.

I repeatedly said "let's assume pick 5 or 6".

So don't act like it's pick 18 being floated. The understanding that pick 18 would be way unders was implicit in the question. Not sure why you would choose to ignore that.

If we get a Pick 4 or 5, that would be fair compensation for Martin.

OK, so you think pick 5 would be acceptable FA compensation for Martin.

I'd suggest that would still be unders and plenty of Richmond fans have argued the club should and would push for more than that.

 

[ReaperX]

I repeatedly said "let's assume pick 5 or 6".

So don't act like it's pick 18 being floated. The understanding that pick 18 would be way unders was implicit in the question. Not sure why you would choose to ignore that.

OK, so you think pick 5 would be acceptable FA compensation for Martin.

I'd suggest that would still be unders and plenty of Richmond fans have argued the club should and would push for more than that.

I'm not ignoring the fact that you said "Let's assume Pick 5", I'm simply stating that this is the most important factor to the decision by a very large amount, which you seem to also agree with.

If it's Dustin Martin for Pick 5 compo pick, it's probably fair, or only very slightly against us.

He's probably, in reality, worth Pick 2 or 3, however this year is a strong draft for elite talls, and considering our draft position is already strong later in the first round, Pick 5 would probably be "acceptable" with the vast majority of Tigers fans I would've thought.

I don't speak for all of them though, I can only speak for myself, and if Dusty did leave, I would accept nothing less than the value of a Top 5 pick for that, with Pick 5 itself being the minimum, and Pick 2 or 3 being the preference.

It would also change again depending on the club, if a club that he wanted to go to had a pick that was earlier than the compo pick, we'd again be taking it to the trade table to push for getting that pick. But that's unlikely to be the situation, because Dusty is only going to leave to go to a club in premiership contention.

However, on the off chance that say, he went to the club that finished 17th, we'd be looking to match and FA offer and get Pick 2 traded over for him I'd have thought.

The fact of the matter is, we expect Dusty will be staying, and I think that's the most likely outcome, however if he goes, we'll be getting market value for him or better, and we'll definitely not be taking any less than exactly what we want for him, under any circumstances whatsoever.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If it's Dustin Martin for Pick 5 compo pick, it's probably fair, or only very slightly against us.

There we go. Case closed.

 

[smasha]

There we go. Case closed.

Richmond will sort it out,not some flog playing his grand final against Richmond.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Richmond will sort it out,not some flog playing his grand final against Richmond.

Like they sorted it out to get Chris Yarran?

No one has played a grand final against Richmond for a long time.

 

[ReaperX]

Like they sorted it out to get Chris Yarran?

No one has played a grand final against Richmond for a long time.

You've now revealed yourself to be a troll with that comment.

Should I start making some West Coke jokes, and get this one put over to the Bay, or are you going to be a sensible poster?

 

[ReaperX]

There we go. Case closed.

Case closed in the sense of Richmond not accepting unders for Martin if he leaves? Absolutely!

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You've now revealed yourself to be a troll with that comment.

Oh wow! You're so vigilant! Show everyone how you regulate!

Should I start making some West Coke jokes, and get this one put over to the Bay, or are you going to be a sensible poster?

Make any jokes you like. Why would anyone care?

If Richmond posters are going to pretend they're some kind of magical ninjas at the trade table, it's perfectly reasonable to remind them of their latest abject failures.

Case closed in the sense of Richmond not accepting unders for Martin if he leaves? Absolutely!

If you think pick 5 isn't unders. That's very reasonable.

 

[ReaperX]

Oh wow! You're so vigilant! Show everyone how you regulate!

Make any jokes you like. Why would anyone care?

If Richmond posters are going to pretend they're some kind of magical ninjas at the trade table, it's perfectly reasonable to remind them of their latest abject failures.

If you think pick 5 isn't unders. That's very reasonable.

Nice strawman, but I think what most Richmond posters here have been saying is that we'll get good compensation at the end of the day for Dusty, should he leave. Which we will.

But as previously established, you've revealed yourself to be a troll, so whatever is actually said by real RFC posters isn't important to you, seeing as you'll just railroad your agenda regardless of what I or anyone else have said.

You've also shown yourself to be disingenuous, and despite agreeing with me on basically everything I've said, you're still arguing for the sake of arguing, and when you have nothing else, you fall back into making up strawman after strawman of these so-called "RFC posters"

It's probably time to let it go now, and accept that nobody's buying it, except for other trolls. But if you're wanting to keep trolling, it's a free country I guess, I can't stop you!

Just know that nobody's paying attention to you at this point except me, and this is my last post to you on the matter!

Enjoy your weekend matey!

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Nice strawman, but I think what most Richmond posters here have been saying is that we'll get good compensation at the end of the day for Dusty, should he leave. Which we will.

It's not a strawman.

You have a Richmond supporter insisting that everything will be fine because "Richmond will sort it out".

That's meaningless when you consider some of their recent failures.

But as previously established, you've revealed yourself to be a troll, so whatever is actually said by real RFC posters isn't important to you, seeing as you'll just railroad your agenda regardless of what I or anyone else have said.!

What is "my agenda"?

My argument throughout has been that Richmond may well end up getting unders should Martin leave. They certainly won't be naming their price as some Richmond supporters have suggested.

You have now agreed that pick 5 would be sufficient FA compensation, and I think that's very reasonable of you.

You've also shown yourself to be disingenuous, and despite agreeing with me on basically everything I've said, you're still arguing for the sake of arguing, and when you have nothing else, you fall back into making up strawman after strawman of these so-called "RFC posters"

See above.

If you think pick 5 is sufficient, I have no issue with that. I think that's very reasonable of you. How is that "arguing for the sake of it"?

And these supposed strawman arguments have actually been made by others, so they're not strawman arguments.

 

[marty36]

Where ever Martin ends up it will be for overs in $$$$ even if that is Richmond.

Martin and his manager are pushing the pay day and if there are no other big names on the table he will get it

 

[cryptor]

Richmond won't match if the compensation pick turns out to be a Top 5 pick.

Richmond will match if the compensation pick is outside of that range due to us having a good year, and in that scenario, we'll request that a club either trades us a Top 5 pick, or finds a way to get their hands on 2 mid first round picks, and trades them to us.

With that said, if we have a good year, Dusty won't leave. He'll only leave if we're a Bottom 4 or 5 side.

So you're most likely right in the sense that Richmond won't match, because we won't need to. If Dusty's leaving, it'll be because we were s**t in 2017, and the compo pick offered will mean that we won't need to.

But if we finish in a high position in 2017 and he did for some reason still want to leave, we'll be matching and going against the trend, because we're not going to take unders for Dusty, and a compo pick that was like 12 or 13 in the draft would be unders by itself.

You're talking as if you're calling the shots at Richmond. You're not. It doesn't matter what you want to happen, all clubs have played this situation effectively the same.

Tigers finish close to the bottom and yes, like you've said, Richmond will let him go and take the top 6 pick.

Finish higher and they'll still take the compensation pick. Why? Because what you're failing to factor is that the higher Richmond finishes the more clubs that will have a pre-season draft pick higher than yours. Hence the greater the chance he'd end up elsewhere and Richmond not getting anything.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You're talking as if you're calling the shots at Richmond. You're not. It doesn't matter what you want to happen, all clubs have played this situation effectively the same.

Tigers finish close to the bottom and yes, like you've said, Richmond will let him go and take the top 6 pick.

Finish higher and they'll still take the compensation pick. Why? Because what you're failing to factor is that the higher Richmond finishes the more clubs that will have a pre-season draft pick higher than yours. Hence the greater the chance he'd end up elsewhere and Richmond not getting anything.

I think it's feasible they could match and get a slightly improved deal from Martin's preferred club.

Let's say Martin decides to leave and nominates a club that finished below Richmond.

If the compensation available to Richmond was the pick before their existing first-rounder, it might make sense for them to match the bid and then try to get the other club's earlier first-rounder and maybe their second-rounder too. Like Geelong giving up picks 9 and 28 (and Gore) for Dangerfield.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

martin deserves to be paid. all innuendo aside he finished 3rd in the brownlow has improved every year and has hardly missed a game in his career. he is a gun midfielder and a nightmare match up in the forward arc. there were stats the other year that backed this up with martin winning the most one on one contests in the forward 50.

we really need to keep him but if he goes we will have a minimum of 3 first round draft picks (ours this year,geelongs for the lids trade from gws,and at least one first round compo from martin if he leaves) so 3 first rounders in a draft that is meant to have great key position talent would be great to fast track a rebuild.

 

[ReaperX]

You're talking as if you're calling the shots at Richmond. You're not. It doesn't matter what you want to happen, all clubs have played this situation effectively the same.

Tigers finish close to the bottom and yes, like you've said, Richmond will let him go and take the top 6 pick.

Finish higher and they'll still take the compensation pick. Why? Because what you're failing to factor is that the higher Richmond finishes the more clubs that will have a pre-season draft pick higher than yours. Hence the greater the chance he'd end up elsewhere and Richmond not getting anything.

If we finish higher up on the ladder, and then he decides to leave as you say, he'd be going to a club that likely finished even higher than us, and is closer to a premiership than us, so therefore in those negotiations it'd actually be in OUR favour to threaten letting him walk him to the PSD.

In that scenario, the likelihood of Dusty's club of choice getting him in the PSD is non-existent, whereas if we play hard ball, we've still potentially got a chance to talk him around and sign him ourselves (admittedly unlikely to work if it went that far though), but the other club has exactly ZERO chance of getting him too.

The only way that the PSD comes into play is if the team that lures him away from us is the wooden spooner or a team that finishes very very low, and that's pretty much not going to happen, because he's only going to leave Richmond if he feels that we're not going to be contending, so it would make absolutely no sense to go to the wooden spoon side.

 

[cryptor]

If we finish higher up on the ladder, and then he decides to leave as you say, he'd be going to a club that likely finished even higher than us, and is closer to a premiership than us, so therefore in those negotiations it'd actually be in OUR favour to threaten letting him walk him to the PSD.

In that scenario, the likelihood of Dusty's club of choice getting him in the PSD is non-existent, whereas if we play hard ball, we've still potentially got a chance to talk him around and sign him ourselves (admittedly unlikely to work if it went that far though), but the other club has exactly ZERO chance of getting him too.

The only way that the PSD comes into play is if the team that lures him away from us is the wooden spooner or a team that finishes very very low, and that's pretty much not going to happen, because he's only going to leave Richmond if he feels that we're not going to be contending, so it would make absolutely no sense to go to the wooden spoon side.

So Martin has decided in his head that he'd much rather take a risk in the draft than he would re-signing with Richmond and you think Richmond would re-draft him - knowing full well he doesn't want to be there - and at big money? That's not happening.

And even if another team picks him up before the club he wants to go to does (can't recall this ever happening with a big name player - see Luke Ball, Kurt Tippett, etc.) he still gets a huge pay day, and the club that missed out doesn't lose anything they didn't already have. The only party that loses big time in that scenario is Richmond.

 

[ReaperX]

So Martin has decided in his head that he'd much rather take a risk in the draft than he would re-signing with Richmond and you think Richmond would re-draft him - knowing full well he doesn't want to be there - and at big money? That's not happening.

And even if another team picks him up before the club he wants to go to does (can't recall this ever happening with a big name player - see Luke Ball, Kurt Tippett, etc.) he still gets a huge pay day, and the club that missed out doesn't lose anything they didn't already have. The only party that loses big time in that scenario is Richmond.

One first round draft pick in the middle of the first round will NOT be enough, and I will categorically guarantee you that we won't accept it. At this point in time, that's all you really need to know, pure and simple.

You don't have to worry about it anyway, he isn't going to Hawthorn champ, you guys are no longer in premiership contention and will be heading back down the ladder over the next couple of years, so you have no vested interest in this!

He'd ONLY leave to go to a team in premiership contention, and they will trade us what we want, or they won't get him, and Martin will not leave us for a team on the bottom of the ladder unless they offered him something ridiculous like 1.3 mill a year for 7 years or something like that.

As for us risking getting nothing for him if he potentially walked to the PSD and WAS happy to go to the wooden spooner... well put it this way, Martin is already going to be getting a big payday with us anyway, so if he's faced with the choice of either going to the PSD and ending up with a team that has even less prospects than us for similar money, or staying with us after the deal with the higher placed team fell through, he'd stay with us.

TL;DR - As much as you're desperate for it to happen, Richmond is not going to lose in this situation, because we're either keeping Dusty, or getting the exact value we want for him, which is at minimum a Top 5 draft pick. You don't need to worry about it at all though, because the Hawkies won't be factoring in anywhere when it comes to Dustin, so you just relax and enjoy the progress of Tyrone Vickery this year!

 

[cryptor]

One first round draft pick in the middle of the first round will NOT be enough, and I will categorically guarantee you that we won't accept it. At this point in time, that's all you really need to know, pure and simple.

You don't have to worry about it anyway, he isn't going to Hawthorn champ, you guys are no longer in premiership contention and will be heading back down the ladder over the next couple of years, so you have no vested interest in this!

He'd ONLY leave to go to a team in premiership contention, and they will trade us what we want, or they won't get him, and Martin will not leave us for a team on the bottom of the ladder unless they offered him something ridiculous like 1.3 mill a year for 7 years or something like that.

As for us risking getting nothing for him if he potentially walked to the PSD and WAS happy to go to the wooden spooner... well put it this way, Martin is already going to be getting a big payday with us anyway, so if he's faced with the choice of either going to the PSD and ending up with a team that has even less prospects than us for similar money, or staying with us after the deal with the higher placed team fell through, he'd stay with us.

TL;DR - As much as you're desperate for it to happen, Richmond is not going to lose in this situation, because we're either keeping Dusty, or getting the exact value we want for him, which is at minimum a Top 5 draft pick. You don't need to worry about it at all though, because the Hawkies won't be factoring in anywhere when it comes to Dustin, so you just relax and enjoy the progress of Tyrone Vickery this year!

Start getting used to it. Martin is leaving and it doesn't matter how much you kick and scream about it. You'll be getting the compo pick and that's all there is to it. Pray for the spoon.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

martin deserves to be paid. all innuendo aside he finished 3rd in the brownlow has improved every year and has hardly missed a game in his career. he is a gun midfielder and a nightmare match up in the forward arc. there were stats the other year that backed this up with martin winning the most one on one contests in the forward 50.

we really need to keep him but if he goes we will have a minimum of 3 first round draft picks (ours this year,geelongs for the lids trade from gws,and at least one first round compo from martin if he leaves) so 3 first rounders in a draft that is meant to have great key position talent would be great to fast track a rebuild.

Wouldn't it be better to have two first-rounders and retain Martin?

I'm also sceptical about talk of Richmond "rebuilding". Rebuilding what? Hasn't the list just been drifting along without success for however long? Calling it a "rebuild" suggests there was some apotheosis in the past.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

Wouldn't it be better to have two first-rounders and retain Martin?

I'm also sceptical about talk of Richmond "rebuilding". Rebuilding what? Hasn't the list just been drifting along without success for however long? Calling it a "rebuild" suggests there was some apotheosis in the past.

of course that would be what we want but if he leaves not much we can do other then match. and of course we tried to rebuild the problem is we butchered so many of our draft picks it stuffed us for longer. then we tried to bring in players to help push us into finals which worked since we made it 3 years in a row. but 18-22nd weren't good enough to actually win the finals.

but of course no point really discussing anything because its lets bag richmond

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If we finish higher up on the ladder, and then he decides to leave as you say, he'd be going to a club that likely finished even higher than us, and is closer to a premiership than us

That's a long bow to draw.

A side may finish higher on the ladder in a given year but that doesn't automatically make them closer to a premiership.

North Melbourne finished 8th last year. How close to a premiership - or at least contending for one - are they? Closer than Melbourne or St Kilda or Fremantle?

The only way that the PSD comes into play is if the team that lures him away from us is the wooden spooner or a team that finishes very very low, and that's pretty much not going to happen, because he's only going to leave Richmond if he feels that we're not going to be contending, so it would make absolutely no sense to go to the wooden spoon side.

It's weird how you rule out any possibility of him going to a lower-ranked side.

Richmond finished higher than Fremantle last season. But whose list is in better shape? Is it really beyond the pale that a player could have looked at Fremantle at the end of 2016 and seen more potential for success than at Richmond. That seems like a bogus assumption.

A similar scenario could easily happen this year. Maybe Hawthorn fall off a cliff and finish lower than Richmond. I doubt that's going to rule them out as a destination should Martin choose to leave.

He'd ONLY leave to go to a team in premiership contention, and they will trade us what we want, or they won't get him, and Martin will not leave us for a team on the bottom of the ladder unless they offered him something ridiculous like 1.3 mill a year for 7 years or something like that.

Once again, you retreat into fantasy.

You think Richmond are going to be in a position to "name their price" if they have an uncontracted free agent who has asked to leave.

It's nonsense.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Start getting used to it. Martin is leaving and it doesn't matter how much you kick and scream about it. You'll be getting the compo pick and that's all there is to it. Pray for the spoon.

I agree more or less.

But surely there's a window for them to match and get a slightly better deal than the one compensation pick.

Look at what the Crows did with Dangerfield. The compensation would have been one pick in the teens. Instead, they wrangled something better.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

but of course no point really discussing anything because its lets bag richmond

Welcome to the last 35 years.

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Welcome to the last 35 years.

Resorting to attacking the team means you have no real come back.. So just give it up.