Preview Prematch discussion/changes vs Adelaide

[GarnerSmash]

Can't be stuffed looking back through old posts but I can recall at one stage the Tsunami of appreciation for BJ and that even the most negative posters lauding him as the "most important player" in the team.

He was consistently blanketing the oppositions' gun and picking up touches himself on the rebound.

He basically went from whipping boy to fanboi overnight the moment he became the Vice/Glove/Shadow.

Yeah, he did a great job and picked up his game offensivley a bit. His zenith if I remember correctly was the back end of 2015 where he destroyed his opponents but averaged around 15 touches a game on good game time. But again, I don't mean to udersell his achievements at all. He was a key plank in why that team went deep into finals. But those days are over. Do we want to keep the same role or should we change it for developmental purposes?

 

[Benno_900]

In the past, Scott has explicitly stated that he did not want to play a tagger as he wanted to develop a midfield in a way that it was capable of beating the opposition head-to-head.

I have doubts whether Scott is willing to sacrfice a centre square spot for a tagger since we are regenerating.

Let's not forget that it was Crocker that converted Jacobs into a tagger.

 

[GarnerSmash]

He was getting the pill.

As I said, back end of 2015 he wasn't really.

Edit: In fact in his last 20 games he has averaged 12.5 touches a game.

 

[kangaspurs]

Yeah, he did a great job and picked up his game offensivley a bit. His zenith if I remember correctly was the back end of 2015 where he destroyed his opponents but averaged around 15 touches a game on good game time. But again, I don't mean to udersell his achievements at all. He was a key plank in why that team went deep into finals. But those days are over. Do we want to keep the same role or should we change it for developmental purposes?

I would agree with you if we were talking about a 30 year old Brady Rawlings, but Ben is still young enough to play a significant role in our next flag push and I think he's still got a development and growth left in his own game; we're talking about a guy who has only played 77 games himself.

He makes us a better side in the short term, but I also still think that he has room to hone his craft and be even better when we are pushing up the ladder again. For that reason I believe there is still a place for him in our best team.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I would agree with you if we were talking about a 30 year old Brady Rawlings, but Ben is still young enough to play a significant role in our next flag push and I think he's still got a development and growth left in his own game; we're talking about a guy who has only played 77 games himself.

He makes us a better side in the short term, but I also still think that he has room to hone his craft and be even better when we are pushing up the ladder again. For that reason I believe there is still a place for him in our best team.

I'd love to see it work out that way.

 

[Groin guru]

Not sure it is unfair on Ben. It is what it is. I understand he had ankle issues and glandular fever at Port, I understand that he can kill it at VFL level, but he has always looked a bit off the pace as a ball hunter at AFL level, moreso in his decision making and execution, even though he at times has not struggled to find the pill. Will tagging give him the exposure to the pace of the game that he needs to develop the other side of his game? Maybe, and ulitmately I would hope that this does happen, because nothing would be better than having a bloke destroy the oppositions best midfielder and get it 20+ times himself and use it well.

My position though is that if a tagger can't get the pill, and we ain't pushing for the flag, then we would be better off developing a raft of players who do have the potential to be good, well rounded mids. Ben adds to the pool the we do have (Mountford, Clarke, Dumont, Anderson etc.) but if playing him as a non-ball winning tagger limits their exposure to the AFL then I ain't so sure its worth it.

I completely understand that you do want him to succeed. I'm not suggesting you're one of those types that is just glad to be right regardless of North's position.

I agree that at times in the past he has looked off the pace and slow to act. However, i still don't think he's had an extended run in the midfield with the shackles off.

I also think you are severely undervaluing the role of a tagger. If jacobs plays and blankets the oppositions best we are closer to winning (even if we are down the bottom). Give me a 15 v 15 possession game over a loose tag with players going head to head and they both get it 30 times a piece. Limit their best and bank on our other mids being better than their remaining mids.

 

[Shermanator]

Yeah, he did a great job and picked up his game offensivley a bit. His zenith if I remember correctly was the back end of 2015 where he destroyed his opponents but averaged around 15 touches a game on good game time. But again, I don't mean to udersell his achievements at all. He was a key plank in why that team went deep into finals. But those days are over. Do we want to keep the same role or should we change it for developmental purposes?

I reckon we absolutely need to have a tagger.

GAJ, Danger/Selwood, Pendles, Fyfe and co put a big pencil mark under our game every year when the fixture is released, because they know if they're playing like shit up to that point we will play them back into form..

Froggy should be released to accumulate and not waste his energy to lock down defensively.

Put it this way I would much rather BJ getting 15 touches and putting the vice on the big boys than having Jedi getting 12 touches and allowing the big boys to get 25..

 

[Arden]

Before Ben started tagging, his disposals were deer in headlights material. Once he began tagging, got his confidence up and had tagging as his sole focus, his disposal seemed more assured.

 

[Shermanator]

Before Ben started tagging, his disposals were deer in headlights material. Once he began tagging, got his confidence up and had tagging as his sole focus, his disposal seemed more assured.

Spot on. I used to hide under the couch when he got near the pill pre-Glove.

Once he became the Glove his whole confidence level when through the roof.

Get him in!

 

[Groin guru]

Before Ben started tagging, his disposals were deer in headlights material. Once he began tagging, got his confidence up and had tagging as his sole focus, his disposal seemed more assured.

I agree. We always hear players say the speed is different between VFL and AFL. He had no issues finding at at VFL level but in 2015 there were a few occasions where he looked more confident in himself and even shrugged off a few tackles before dishing it off. It was great to see that confidence in himself and his body when previously it looked like "shit, what do i do?"

 

[giantroo]

Fox


NORTH MELBOURNE v ADELAIDE

Saturday, May 6, 1.45pm at Blundstone Arena

How to watch on Fox Footy: Channel 504 from 1.30pm hosted by Sarah Jones with commentators Brenton Speed, Jason Dunstall, Brad Johnson and Cameron Mooney.

Team News

Kangaroos coach Brad Scott says Jarrad Waite is “really close” to returning. North Melbourne veterans Andrew Swallow and Lindsay Thomas will be hoping for a return to the senior team, but it’s unlikely given the way the side performed last week. Riley Knight could make his return from a hamstring injury for the Crows.

North Melbourne burning question: How much more of Andrew Swallow and Lindsay Thomas will we see this year?

Perhaps not much. You can see where Lindsay Thomas fits into this side, but if Andrew Swallow isn’t going to be used in the midfield, his contributions might be limited.

Adelaide burning question: Is Rory Sloane the best player in the competition at the moment?

Yes. His last five weeks have been stunning. It was no surprise to see him take out the AFLPA MVP for the month and it might be less of a surprise to see him leading the Brownlow.

Predicted post-game headline

Crows go whack again, dismantle Roos

Tip: Adelaide by 60 points.

 

[muttley45]

No Basil commentary = winning

 

[giantroo]

No Basil commentary = winning

What did you all think of Brenton Speed last time?

 

[archereleven]

Jacobs is in the team all day long for mine.

If others cant learn to play their respective positions as well as he does when fit, then look for alternatives. He takes the oppos best ball winner and allows our blokes to get first hands on the ball... No brainer.

 

[Dirty_11]

Were u at the game? Cost us their first 3 goals and should have been pinged for a couple of frees. I think he's cooked, plays selfish footy and EVW can play 3rd tall. Also, I don't like any match ups for him this week.

Yeah I was there, although he got caught behind on a couple of occassions he out pointed Lynch multiple times one on one. I thought it was his best game for the year.

 

[Mcarcherey]

It's a good discussion point. Like you Shinte, I think Benny offers a lot and I'd love to see him back in for the reasons you've offered. (The point about making it harder for Swallow to regain his spot is also a positive.)

Benno does have a point though too. Tactically, while a tagger may not be necessary it may be advantageous. But that spot in the side, at this point in the team's development would have a cost along the lines that Benno has suggested.

Goes to show that the Match Committee has their work cut out for them.

Jacobs isn't exactly old - he's only 25. dumont, anderson and mountford have all played defensive mid roles anyway - we all know jacobs is better at the role, add to the fact in his last lot of games before injury he was also producing offensively too. Can't see the point in the argument that him being a tagger will hinder development.

 

[kangaspurs]

What did you all think of Brenton Speed last time?

I've heard a lot of him in the A-League and a few AFL games and he's alright. Not great, but he doesn't really have an ego and comes across as a genuine sport fan.

There's just something about the tone of his voice that annoys me a little, but that's just me.

 

[Kimbo]

I said it was a good discussion point and it looks like there's indeed been some good discussion.
Preview thread >>> Autopsy thread >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Game Day thread! (And now with wine tasting notes.)

My position though is that if a tagger can't get the pill, and we ain't pushing for the flag, then we would be better off developing a raft of players who do have the potential to be good, well rounded mids.

He was getting the pill.

His zenith if I remember correctly was the back end of 2015 where he destroyed his opponents but averaged around 15 touches a game on good game time. Edit: In fact in his last 20 games he has averaged 12.5 touches a game.

My memory of it was not so much that he was racking up the touches. More a case of getting as much of the ball, and sometimes goals, as the midfielder he was tagging.

Which is how I see the following quotes...

Give me a 15 v 15 possession game over a loose tag with players going head to head and they both get it 30 times a piece. Limit their best and bank on our other mids being better than their remaining mids.

Put it this way I would much rather BJ getting 15 touches and putting the vice on the big boys than having Jedi getting 12 touches and allowing the big boys to get 25.

I've never understood people not understanding a tagger. If they are consistently good at it, its a no brainer. Taking out our weakest mid for their best mid.... Its like sacrificing a pawn for a queen.

This approach denifitely works when our mid-tier outranks their mid-tier midfielders and when we don't have the top notch guys like the competitors. It is, however, a risk minimisation approach, rather than an aggressive, try-to-outdo them and have them come after us but let's face it, we haven't had the top end talent to pursue this in many ways.

In the past, Scott has explicitly stated that he did not want to play a tagger as he wanted to develop a midfield in a way that it was capable of beating the opposition head-to-head.

I have doubts whether Scott is willing to sacrifice a centre square spot for a tagger since we are regenerating. Let's not forget that it was Crocker that converted Jacobs into a tagger.

Yes, he wants us to have this capability, and if you're aiming for premierships, why wouldn't you? You want midfielders who can work hard both ways, and work for each other. It's not a mutually exclusive thing - sometimes you tag, other times you don't.

So, the $64 million dollar question is whether you continue to play (and develop) BJ if his role is mainly tagger? I don't have the answer, but I think these two posts, below, sum it up:

But again, I don't mean to undersell his achievements at all. He was a key plank in why that team went deep into finals. But those days are over. Do we want to keep the same role or should we change it for developmental purposes?

I would agree with you... but Ben is still young enough... and I think he's still got a development and growth left in his own game; we're talking about a guy who has only played 77 games himself.

He makes us a better side in the short term, but I also still think that he has room to hone his craft and be even better when we are pushing up the ladder again. For that reason I believe there is still a place for him in our best team.

Like you kangaspurs, I'd like to see him continue his development trajectory. I felt the tagging was not just good for team results, but as others have said, for BJ's development and confidence. He began to look so much more assured with ball in hand and while he still had some 'hit and miss' moments, looked more composed and effective with his long kicking than say, JZ.

 

[giantroo]

I've heard a lot of him in the A-League and a few AFL games and he's alright. Not great, but he doesn't really have an ego and comes across as a genuine sport fan.

There's just something about the tone of his voice that annoys me a little, but that's just me.

Yeah, it's the pause between each call, it is soccer commentary.

 

[giantroo]

 

[shintemaster]

I think a one man tall forward line is a big ask for any player in the modern game.

 

[giantroo]

I asked a question to Corza re Daw:

 

[XU1-ROO]

I asked a question to Corza re Daw:

Funny that. Daw has to bust his arse in the VFL to get back in.

 

[Jindrrk]

Corey....you just dont like Waite cause its pretty easy to read last week we struggled without a second tall until Hansen went up there.

 

[Groin guru]

I said it was a good discussion point and it looks like there's indeed been some good discussion.
Preview thread >>> Autopsy thread >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Game Day thread! (And now with wine tasting notes.)




My memory of it was not so much that he was racking up the touches. More a case of getting as much of the ball, and sometimes goals, as the midfielder he was tagging.

Which is how I see the following quotes...



This approach denifitely works when our mid-tier outranks their mid-tier midfielders and when we don't have the top notch guys like the competitors. It is, however, a risk minimisation approach, rather than an aggressive, try-to-outdo them and have them come after us but let's face it, we haven't had the top end talent to pursue this in many ways.


Yes, he wants us to have this capability, and if you're aiming for premierships, why wouldn't you? You want midfielders who can work hard both ways, and work for each other. It's not a mutually exclusive thing - sometimes you tag, other times you don't.

So, the $64 million dollar question is whether you continue to play (and develop) BJ if his role is mainly tagger? I don't have the answer, but I think these two posts, below, sum it up:


Like you kangaspurs, I'd like to see him continue his development trajectory. I felt the tagging was not just good for team results, but as others have said, for BJ's development and confidence. He began to look so much more assured with ball in hand and while he still had some 'hit and miss' moments, looked more composed and effective with his long kicking than say, JZ.

This post is longer than the rest of the thread. Let me put on a pot of coffee while i mull it over.