List Mgmt. 2017 Trade/Draft/FA SuperMegaUltra Thread - Post Trade-Period Edition

[Carbine Chaos]

Just embracing the possibility of Higgins at 13 for a moment, I wonder how many debutants we would be willing to go into round one with.

In terms of forwards particularly, you'd think all of Venables, Rioli and Higgins would all be very close to the mark for a round one debut. There's also of course Waterman who we know is close (although you'd assume not a realistic chance).

Aside from those three, we may also be taking Tim Kelly, a plug and play midfield option. Is four debutants excessive? Surely, three debutants in the same forward line at once is overkill.

Play the best forward line regardless of experience. I’d happily fit Venables, Rioli and Higgins (though I doubt we’d get him) in Round 1. Kelly further up the ground a lock if we take him.

 

[dajesmac]

Play the best forward line regardless of experience. I’d happily fit Venables, Rioli and Higgins (though I doubt we’d get him) in Round 1. Kelly further up the ground a lock if we take him.

It'd be great to see but four debutants would be out of character for our conservative MC. I guess in this hypothetical they might let Higgins play round one for the Royals.

 

[The Stid]

Just vomited in my mouth a little after reading HedgeFund’s phantom on the Draft board.

The poster had us taking in the first and second round:

#13 O’Brien
#21 Starcevich
#26 Kelly
#32 Hayden
#37 Ainsworth

Constable was still on the board at #13 who I probably would have favoured over O’Brien but that’s fine, no other highly rated mids were on the board.

In the second round though L.Fogarty, Bailey, Bonar, Miller, Kreuger, Houlahan, Worpel, Balta, Spargo, Shipley, Moore, Ballard, petrucelle and a few others were all still on the board at our second rounders.

Say this is how it did play out on draft day and we took those players with said players still have available. Would anyone at all be happy? (Besides the Facebook idiots who only want WA players)

 

[Tom_Thumb]

Tom - don't let these guys give you a hard time. I think you need to spend some time on PM with Sweet Jesus. I think you and he will have some good dialogue.

I'm not "One of the Crowd" to sit around and pat each other on the back and pretend to be the System. We have a massive number of loyal fans in their 60's now and if you rattle their cage with some home truths they don't wont to hear it because you are attacking their paradigm and we all know that generation think they are in possession of the only truth and any other discussion is moot.

 

[truman]

The point is that 10years after the fact there are many on this board who claim the club stuffed up by not drafting player X and Y. When other posters state that they were late bloomers or unfortunate misses or the club had no way of foreseeing certain circumstances these posters seem to claim that they would have done a far better job.

See Tom thumbs post from an hour ago. It's very easy to claim in hindsight. Does he have evidence of a post from 2007 that we should have picked up rance and Taylor? If he produces a post from that time his credibility increases. If not then maybe he shouldn't pretend he knows better than the club.

There was a thread made after the 2007 draft where almost everybody was stoked with our choices. Now in 2017 we can continually rubbish the club? Yes they got it wrong, but I'm not going to bang on about it like I know better. Some here claim that they previously knew better so they should put their money where their mouth is. Drafting is more or less a lottery. No club gets it right every time. If they do they deserve a lot of praise. If they don't then I don't think they deserve all the crap they get especially if nobody else is able to point out their mistakes at the time.

I personally have only followed the draft since 2013 and have been quite happy with nearly every choice the club has made. I think it's an interesting idea to make our own choices knowing what's available at each pick post draft, and then see how genius we all are in 5 years from now.

I think his evidence is their output. The whole point of recruitment is being able to identify which players will go on to have the best careers. Of course this is not an easy job and recruitment is not an exact science. Quite clearly no recruiter will be right all the time. But to imply that 'who could have guessed Rance and Taylor would have had the careers they did', I mean that is why you pay recruiters and that's their job.

Unfortunately the AFL industry is not the right one to get praised when you do well and not criticised when you make mistakes. Unfortunately in million and billion dollar industries the reverse is true more often then not... that's just a fact of life and what you are expecting from the average pundit is quite frankly ridiculous for anyone who has seen how much of a business the AFL has become, particularly in the past 10 years.

 

[swingdog]

Not to add to hindsight, but have only just got around to reading Emma Quayle's The Draft, which apart from its focus on the players also concentrates on the Hawthorn recruiting team which was about to pick up Cyril (which even they viewed as risky).

What was interesting was that they also didn't rate Masten that highly, in particular it was a knock on his kicking.

 

[mick06]

Just vomited in my mouth a little after reading HedgeFund’s phantom on the Draft board.

The poster had us taking in the first and second round:

#13 O’Brien
#21 Starcevich
#26 Kelly
#32 Hayden
#37 Ainsworth

Constable was still on the board at #13 who I probably would have favoured over O’Brien but that’s fine, no other highly rated mids were on the board.

In the second round though L.Fogarty, Bailey, Bonar, Miller, Kreuger, Houlahan, Worpel, Balta, Spargo, Shipley, Moore, Ballard, petrucelle and a few others were all still on the board at our second rounders.

Say this is how it did play out on draft day and we took those players with said players still have available. Would anyone at all be happy? (Besides the Facebook idiots who only want WA players)

I actually really like the look of O'brien.
Very smooth player, great looking kick and capable overhead comingnout from half forward and along the wings. Sure, have read he is limited to being very outside and may be considered a little soft which goes against a considered need but i would be very happy with him on the list next season

 

[former lurker]

I'm not "One of the Crowd" to sit around and pat each other on the back and pretend to be the System. We have a massive number of loyal fans in their 60's now and if you rattle their cage with some home truths they don't wont to hear it because you are attacking their paradigm and we all know that generation think they are in possession of the only truth and any other discussion is moot.

And we all know that gen Y/ Z Is the generation of entitlement. Surely they know much more than silly old farts whose years of experience has predijuced their judgment . The arrogance of the young with the entitlement of the selfish generation, You epitomise that Tom.

 

[Seadog]

I'm not "One of the Crowd" to sit around and pat each other on the back and pretend to be the System. We have a massive number of loyal fans in their 60's now and if you rattle their cage with some home truths they don't wont to hear it because you are attacking their paradigm and we all know that generation think they are in possession of the only truth and any other discussion is moot.

No little Tommy, you are the only one who thinks "that generation think they are in possession of the only truth" don't presume you speak for the rest of us.

 

[mattyc75]

Just watched the charlie ballard highlights.he would be a very handy pick up

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Patron]

I know this will trigger some on here but - Noah Balta interests me greatly. I know it's a long shot but if he was able to adapt to playing as a mid he could be the next Judd. He can also play KPF (and KPD) which is a plus.

That's a massive if, I know, but I think he will tear a few teams apart over the course of his career, whichever position he settles in.

I’m a fan would love him at 21. I think you are optimistic if you think he can become a mid though. It’s kind of like rance, he’s powerful and quick but I don’t think he’s a mid.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Patron]

If Higgins was a bit taller he’d be a Top 5 pick. We’d be crazy not to pull the trigger at 13 if he’s still there.

Not convinced he will be though.

If Caleb Daniel was 185cm he would have gone number 1. But he wasn’t. Higgins will probably struggle to be an inside mid at afl level. His size does limit him so can’t simply he ignored. If available at 13 though I would expect he’s best available.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Patron]

Just vomited in my mouth a little after reading HedgeFund’s phantom on the Draft board.

The poster had us taking in the first and second round:

#13 O’Brien
#21 Starcevich
#26 Kelly
#32 Hayden
#37 Ainsworth

Constable was still on the board at #13 who I probably would have favoured over O’Brien but that’s fine, no other highly rated mids were on the board.

In the second round though L.Fogarty, Bailey, Bonar, Miller, Kreuger, Houlahan, Worpel, Balta, Spargo, Shipley, Moore, Ballard, petrucelle and a few others were all still on the board at our second rounders.

Say this is how it did play out on draft day and we took those players with said players still have available. Would anyone at all be happy? (Besides the Facebook idiots who only want WA players)

Wowzers. I’m a starcevich fan but balta and bonar would be better picks at 21.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Tom_Thumb]

And we all know that gen Y/ Z Is the generation of entitlement. Surely they know much more than silly old farts whose years of experience has predijuced their judgment . The arrogance of the young with the entitlement of the selfish generation, You epitomise that Tom.

I had to laugh at that, I'm 50 and I see both Generations either side of me and their arrogance, I deal with a lot of 60+ year olds day in and out and I see the "My Mind Is Made Up" written all over their faces as if there is no room for any idea's other than their own. Even when presented with undeniable proofs they still stick to their own views. That aside there is undeniable evidence of "Fainboi" syndrome in here with only a slight hint of unbias in too few posters.

 

[former lurker]

I had to laugh at that, I'm 50 and I see both Generations either side of me and their arrogance, I deal with a lot of 60+ year olds day in and out and I see the "My Mind Is Made Up" written all over their faces as if there is no room for any idea's other than their own. Even when presented with undeniable proofs they still stick to their own views. That aside there is undeniable evidence of "Fainboi" syndrome in here with only a slight hint of unbias in too few posters.

Fair call on the "fanboi" comment, and also the reverse is prevalent, when players are criticised for not being perfect all the time. And others are revered for "potential". As for my remark about you epitomising Gen Z, I apologise for my presumptions.

 

[nob2210]

Just vomited in my mouth a little after reading HedgeFund’s phantom on the Draft board.

The poster had us taking in the first and second round:

#13 O’Brien
#21 Starcevich
#26 Kelly
#32 Hayden
#37 Ainsworth

Constable was still on the board at #13 who I probably would have favoured over O’Brien but that’s fine, no other highly rated mids were on the board.

In the second round though L.Fogarty, Bailey, Bonar, Miller, Kreuger, Houlahan, Worpel, Balta, Spargo, Shipley, Moore, Ballard, petrucelle and a few others were all still on the board at our second rounders.

Say this is how it did play out on draft day and we took those players with said players still have available. Would anyone at all be happy? (Besides the Facebook idiots who only want WA players)

You missed who he had us getting at pick 87 though!!
Cousins would be a great pick at 87, can't believe Essendon passed him over for Kevin Sheedy at pick 85!

 

[Obeanie1]

Play the best forward line regardless of experience. I’d happily fit Venables, Rioli and Higgins (though I doubt we’d get him) in Round 1. Kelly further up the ground a lock if we take him.

Regardless of experience?

The best forward line is a forward line with a good mix of experience and an element of youth brings a bit of unpredictability and excitement. I would be very surprised to see three forward debut in the same game, there would need to be multiple injuries to experienced forward for that to happen.

Forwards need to play as a team, block for each other, not lead into another's space, position themselves to crumb the pack. I suppose that is what preseason and lead up games are for but there is no doubt that when a group plays together for a time they gel and the set plays and positioning happen by ingrained instinct.

 

[tigger_ferret]

For reasons like this I'm starting a hindsight heroes thread immediately after the draft. All the geniuses in our midst can tell us who they would have picked instead of who the club picked. That way in time to come people can either quote their genius picks from that thread or gtfo

This actually sounds like fun. We can have a month of post draft melts. Lock the thread down and then give it a bump in 3 years for the Lols

 

[Tom_Thumb]

Fair call on the "fanboi" comment, and also the reverse is prevalent, when players are criticised for not being perfect all the time. And others are revered for "potential". As for my remark about you epitomising Gen Z, I apologise for my presumptions.

Yeah look I love this club and have done since day one, I hate it when we make mistakes in drafting because early on we didn't make too many. Really the problem lies in the new generation of players being more athletic than footballer and when I see players like SPP go to another state it makes my blood boil that we let a true footballer go elsewhere.

 

[Obeanie1]

OMG This doesn't happen very often but for once I agree with Garry Lyon.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/11/08/even-stars-have-faults-says-lyon/

"Former Melbourne captain Garry Lyon says over-analysis of draft hopefuls can blind recruiters to qualities that could be the making of a player at AFL level."

Lyon rated competitiveness as the most important part of the drafting equation.
“I want a competitor to the death,” he said.

For once Lyon is spot on and I really hope our recruiters are on the same page.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Forwards need to play as a team, block for each other, not lead into another's space, position themselves to crumb the pack. I suppose that is what preseason and lead up games are for but there is no doubt that when a group plays together for a time they gel and the set plays and positioning happen by ingrained instinct.

Exactly. Play the best group together from the start to give them that experience together. Do we really want Le Cras and Cripps v. 2017 running around just because they know each other's games?

Besides, it's not rocket science. If a forward coach can't teach a game plan (which would change over summer) to a group of professional footy players then they're in struggle town.

 

[liam123]

I think his evidence is their output. The whole point of recruitment is being able to identify which players will go on to have the best careers. Of course this is not an easy job and recruitment is not an exact science. Quite clearly no recruiter will be right all the time. But to imply that 'who could have guessed Rance and Taylor would have had the careers they did', I mean that is why you pay recruiters and that's their job.

Unfortunately the AFL industry is not the right one to get praised when you do well and not criticised when you make mistakes. Unfortunately in million and billion dollar industries the reverse is true more often then not... that's just a fact of life and what you are expecting from the average pundit is quite frankly ridiculous for anyone who has seen how much of a business the AFL has become, particularly in the past 10 years.

I'm not expecting an average pundit to outperform a paid professional. However, if 5 years after the fact Somebody acts like they knew all along who the better choices were then I'm calling bullshiit. With the benefit of hindsight there are many who claim to be wiser than the club. So I'm just saying if you want to claim that or at least take a punt against the club we can now collect some evidence. Who knows maybe we do have a few geniuses around. Those who don't post in that thread can't then bang on about the obvious misses the club made in 5 years from now. Either way it's some fun we can have as it will test to see who actually has an eye for talent

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Yeah look I love this club and have done since day one, I hate it when we make mistakes in drafting because early on we didn't make too many.

Really? Our first two draft picks, ever, were Todd Breman at 2 and Peter Higgins at 10.

 

[Tom_Thumb]

Really? Our first two draft picks, ever, were Todd Breman at 2 and Peter Higgins at 10.

But on the flip side look at Brett Heady and Dean Kemp, all taken later and both from WA.

 

[former lurker]

I'm not expecting an average pundit to outperform a paid professional. However, if 5 years after the fact Somebody acts like they knew all along who the better choices were then I'm calling bullshiit. With the benefit of hindsight there are many who claim to be wiser than the club. So I'm just saying if you want to claim that or at least take a punt against the club we can now collect some evidence. Who knows maybe we do have a few geniuses around. Those who don't post in that thread can't then bang on about the obvious misses the club made in 5 years from now. Either way it's some fun we can have as it will test to see who actually has an eye for talent

I am sure most football followers could pick a few good picks out of their rectum, the trick is doing it consistently and with your allocated picks.