Recommitted Shai Bolton [re-signed]

[Morro]

Don't go All tough man Tony Abbott on the trade Table. GWS tried it on Cam McCarthy and that back fired. Just like How Melbourne thought Jack Watts was worth a 1st round pick because there was a lot of "interest " from many Vic Clubs and he went to Port for pick 30 odd.

Again, don't give me crap about his potential. Freo traded picks 3 and 19 for Des Headland in 2002 for his "Potential" and I know how that worked out.

Sorry but this isn't 1995-2006 anymore. Shai Bolton might be talent but so far in my opinion I wouldn't trade no more than pick 40 for him. If he plays for Richmond and starts playing good and consistent games, his value will grow.

If you want to rot him in the reserves, don't demand a 1st rounder or a top 10 pick for him because you wont get it.

Solid rant but makes no sense.

 

[Cobbler]

Interesting thread. Freo supporters clearly would like this kid... as our small forwards cabinet is bare.

Richmond supporters acting like he’s the second coming but just needs.

We say roughly pick 40 Richmond supporters want something around 15-20.

So let’s split the difference guys and just say his value is about pick 38.

Happy now.

 

[Toadvine]

All those other small forwards would also be worth jack ****. That's the part you don't seem to be able to grasp.

Players playing almost exclusively in the lower league are worth **** all.

Fact is if Shai was in our best 22 he’d be performing beyond expectation for his position. And all you keep banging on about is that he's not playing at AFL level ffs. Have you seen how old Willie Rioli and Liam Ryan are?

The point you don’t seem to understand is that there is no 19yo small forwards in any AFL teams best 22. And if they are there it’s due to injury or they were a 1st round pick.

By your logic if Shai played every game this year for Freo, a team which is in full development mode, Shai would be worth more just because he's getting a game with a rabble of a team. Richmond is in Premiership mode. He's still very young. He's not best 22 right now (although he's short odds to play this week). Get over it.

Draft picks are like new cars, you lose a third of value the moment you drive out the dealership.

Being uncontracted is a mortgagee sale. You are never going to get true value.

When a new recruit leaves uncontracted you don’t get the value of that player. If it fair, no.

Bolton was a mid second round pick and third off is a third round pick. Yes, that’s not his true value but the Tigers has no hand.

Explain the Sam Murray trade to Collingwood.

If Bolton is worth so little why do Freo supporters keep getting a hard on and post in here about a player who hasn't even been linked to them?

I’ll tell you why.... It’s because you know how talented Shai is and the type of player he will become. You know how important small forwards are in the modern game (just look at the top 4 of the ladder this week) and you think you can get a guy cheap.

 

[Toadvine]

Interesting thread. Freo supporters clearly would like this kid... as our small forwards cabinet is bare.

Richmond supporters acting like he’s the second coming but just needs.

We say roughly pick 40 Richmond supporters want something around 15-20.

So let’s split the difference guys and just say his value is about pick 38.

Happy now.

How is splitting the difference between pick 40 and pick 20 = pick 38? Math is clearly not your strong suit buddy

 

[Cobbler]

How is splitting the difference between pick 40 and pick 20 = pick 38? Math is clearly not your strong suit buddy

36. Best offer.

 

[Toadvine]

36. Best offer.

Right oh. Keep walking then. Maybe go somewhere to learn what the definition of "splitting the difference" is?

 

[Joao]

Fact is if Shai was in our best 22 he’d be performing beyond expectation for his position. And all you keep banging on about is that he's not playing at AFL level ffs. Have you seen how old Willie Rioli and Liam Ryan are?

The point you don’t seem to understand is that there is no 19yo small forwards in any AFL teams best 22. And if they are there it’s due to injury or they were a 1st round pick.

By your logic if Shai played every game this year for Freo, a team which is in full development mode, Shai would be worth more just because he's getting a game with a rabble of a team. Richmond is in Premiership mode. He's still very young. He's not best 22 right now (although he's short odds to play this week). Get over it.

Your second bolded is based on the assumption that because his trajectory is normal that at this point in his career his value has increased. Why is this the case? You have zero basis for this other than rating him because he plays for you.

I am telling you that what raises the value of a player after drafting is performance at AFL level. He hasn't done that regardless of his performance relative to his peers which as you point out is average anyway (ie doing well in the VFL but performing poorly at AFL level).

If he played for Freo and was playing WELL at AFL level he would be worth more. Otherwise it would be exactly the same.

Your logic makes no sense. Seriously, what you are saying is that purely because his team is good he is worth more which is just beyond stupid. He can either do it at the level, or he can't and so far he can't. It's not like he gets to bring the rest of Richmond with him when he moves clubs to raise his standard.

 

[Cobbler]

Right oh. Keep walking then. Maybe go somewhere to learn what the definition of "splitting the difference" is?

Your fight for Shai is admirable.
Pick 29 and done diddly at AFL. Out of contract. If he chooses a team and let’s say it’s Fremantle, then on no planet or history of trades does he go there what you’re suggesting.

If he is happy to go wherever? Then he may go for a pick around 30... at best.

Good luck to him and you.

 

[Turbocat]

Draft picks are like new cars, you lose a third of value the moment you drive out the dealership.

Being uncontracted is a mortgagee sale. You are never going to get true value.

When a new recruit leaves uncontracted you don’t get the value of that player. If it fair, no.

Bolton was a mid second round pick and third off is a third round pick. Yes, that’s not his true value but the Tigers has no hand.

I disagree about "true" value... its real value. Quite often the draft is artificial ..once in system one gets a better rating on value. Not just talking specially SB but once you are out of draft if you are not getting regular games.. then you will be considered a player that only just above delist. Of course plenty of young players don't get games straight away.. their potential can distort , especially for early picks .. and perhaps Boltons value can .. but he will be lucky to get Richmond a R2 pick.

What would Carlton get for McKay now?

 

[Cobbler]

I disagree about "true" value... its real value. Quite often the draft is artificial ..once in system one gets a better rating on value. Not just talking specially SB but once you are out of draft if you are not getting regular games.. then you will be considered a player that only just above delist. Of course plenty of young players don't get games straight away.. their potential can distort , especially for early picks .. and perhaps Boltons value can .. but he will be lucky to get Richmond a R2 pick.

What would Carlton get for McKay now?

What would Narkle go for? I like him.

 

[Joao]

What would Carlton get for McKay now?

Don't know, maybe similar to what Brisbane got for Schache.

Pick 25 or maybe a couple in the 30s?

 

[Toadvine]

Your second bolded is based on the assumption that because his trajectory is normal that at this point in his career his value has increased. Why is this the case? You have zero basis for this other than rating him because he plays for you.

I am telling you that what raises the value of a player after drafting is performance at AFL level. He hasn't done that regardless of his performance relative to his peers which as you point out is average anyway (ie doing well in the VFL but performing poorly at AFL level).

If he played for Freo and was playing WELL at AFL level he would be worth more. Otherwise it would be exactly the same.

Your logic makes no sense. Seriously, what you are saying is that purely because his team is good he is worth more which is just beyond stupid. He can either do it at the level, or he can't and so far he can't. It's not like he gets to bring the rest of Richmond with him when he moves clubs to raise his standard.

I think he’ll improve for the same reason Freo supporters want him? We all know he just needs opportunity and time to develop. If he wasn’t going to get any better as a player then why would Freo supporters want him at all? So, why do Freo supporter think he'll get better?

I do think that because he plays for Richmond that plays a huge factor in why he doesn’t get a gig at AFL level. It’s the reason why Sam Murray was traded for a 2nd rounder when he was on the rookie list. Sydney had the best half back flanker in the league with Lloyd, McViegh and Mills. We have the best small forward group in the league with Butler, Rioli, Edwards, and Castagna. The same logic applies.

 

[Cobbler]

I think he’ll improve for the same reason Freo supporters want him? We all know he just needs opportunity and time to develop. If he wasn’t going to get any better as a player then why would Freo supporters want him at all? So, why do Freo supporter think he'll get better?

I do think that because he plays for Richmond that plays a huge factor in why he doesn’t get a gig at AFL level. It’s the reason why Sam Murray was traded for a 2nd rounder when he was on the rookie list. Sydney had the best half back flanker in the league with Lloyd, McViegh and Mills. We have the best small forward group in the league with Butler, Rioli, Edwards, and Castagna. The same logic applies.

You just answered the question. Why do we want him? Because we have no one. Why is he playing VFL? Because you have the best small forward group in the league.

He doesn’t have to get better, but he’d get opportunities with Freo and would possibly benefit our forward line. He may not. I mean it’s Fremantle and we turned McCarthy and Matera from solid goal scorers at their clubs to near spuds at ours.

I understand that you’ve won a flag and Shai now sits behind quality players but that doesn’t raise his value exponentially. All it does is give clubs like Freo a window to pick off excess quality from good clubs at a discounted value.

 

[Turbocat]

What would Narkle go for? I like him.

He is a good example.. Was P60 ..got injured and if he had just becoming back thru the twos... just getting back to form..he would be worth zip...now really who knows. His best is a grade

 

[Cobbler]

He is a good example.. Was P60 ..got injured and if he had just becoming back thru the twos... just getting back to form..he would be worth zip...now really who knows. His best is a grade

I’d have him at Freo if he wanted out or if we could entice him.

Him and Kelly as a combo!

 

[Turbocat]

Don't know, maybe similar to what Brisbane got for Schache.

Pick 25 or maybe a couple in the 30s?

Thats the story for most early picks if they do not come in and hold their spot and perform. McKay has shown something.. Cerra has held value for example. McKay... really at least a round later. Was a P10.... something to learn and take into this year. What will Lukocious be worth is if he comes in and is just ordinary ..has a bit of time out ..and goes home after two years. That would be a list killer.

 

[Turbocat]

I’d have him at Freo if he wanted out or if we could entice him.

Him and Kelly as a combo!

What is this pick over Geelong time LOL. As far as I know he is very happy with the way he has been treated , feels at him etc.

 

[Cobbler]

What is this pick over Geelong time LOL. As far as I know he is very happy with the way he has been treated , feels at him etc.

Nah good to see Narkle getting a game and showing glimpses.

Freo will look at all options and haven’t heard Narkles name except from myself!

 

[Nop returns]

We couldn't expect anything higher them a mid 2nd rounder. Regardless of what we believe his ability is he isnt getting a game at AFL level. He is doing some good things at VFL level but that doesnt always necessarily translate to AFL. being out of contract we dont hold any cards so if he wants to walk we take whats on offer or get nothing.

 

[Joao]

Thats the story for most early picks if they do not come in and hold their spot and perform. McKay has shown something.. Cerra has held value for example. McKay... really at least a round later. Was a P10.... something to learn and take into this year. What will Lukocious be worth is if he comes in and is just ordinary ..has a bit of time out ..and goes home after two years. That would be a list killer.

Yeah you'd think talent would hold more value but the market dictates performance. You can't argue against the market.

That JL situation you describe is basically Schache.

 

[Toadvine]

I understand that you’ve won a flag and Shai now sits behind quality players but that doesn’t raise his value exponentially. All it does is give clubs like Freo a window to pick off excess quality from good clubs at a discounted value.

Explain Jed Anderson to Hawthorne for pick 15? There are exceptions to every rule.

 

[Toadvine]

We couldn't expect anything higher them a mid 2nd rounder. Regardless of what we believe his ability is he isnt getting a game at AFL level. He is doing some good things at VFL level but that doesnt always necessarily translate to AFL. being out of contract we dont hold any cards so if he wants to walk we take whats on offer or get nothing.

I actually agree with you. I think a pick between 25 and 33 is about right. The way Freo fans are flipping our you'd think I was demanding a 1st rounder.

 

[simmo97]

Explain Jed Anderson to Hawthorne for pick 15? There are exceptions to every rule.

Anderson was contracted.

 

[Cobbler]

Explain Jed Anderson to Hawthorne for pick 15? There are exceptions to every rule.

I’ll explain it but it’s hard with no pictures so bare with me.

Firstly when using a trade scenario to highlight your point it’s probably best to get all details out there.

So it was Jed and pick 54 for pick 38 and 40.

Using the points system that values Jed Anderson at smack bang at pick 40.

Do you wish to counter with another dumb example?

 

[Cobbler]

Anderson was contracted.

Plus this if true! Haha