No Oppo Supporters Hawthorn’s 2019 Trade/FA - Targets/Incoming players discussion only - Next Part

[Ned Ryerson]

I'm fairly sure you got the gist of what I was saying, in bringing in 'depth' players who didn't develop greatly with us or create depth to our list....

Mohr and Minch got injured most of it all of the year. However I honestly don’t see a problem in using DFAs to help fill up some list depth. You need to bat deep, Box Hill need players and you have to get to 95% of the cap. DFAs cost us nothing in terms of picks and minimal salary.

You can also end up with the next Hendo. It’s low risk, high reward. I hope we keep using the strategy.

There’s ample opportunity to keep bringing in younger age bracket players via the draft and rookie draft. As it stands there’s enough fitting into this bracket with Golds, Walker, Ross, Hanrahan, Moore, CJ, Greaves and Jones.

 

[On Topic]

Meh.
And to continue with M-theory, didn't we go that route last year with Minchington, Meadows and Mohr?
Not sure they were great depth even at BH.
Would prefer we build our depth through young players with potential at the draft, including some 19-22 year old mature agers who've developed a little later than their golden TAC brethren.

I like depth when you've been plowing a premiership run.
When you're turning over your list and building a contender, reckon you need to keep churning through talented youngsters and holding on to as many as possible, only then trading a few away for a 'mature' depth player to fill a specific need.

Meadows is not on our list
Mohr suffered a likely career ending injury barely before the season started
Minchington has been injured and couldn't stay on the park long enough for the year to build mqtch fitness

They really aren't the best examples to use for this but they were aimed to fill a void in KPD and fwd/mid positions.

However, hitting the draft isn't a terrible thing either. The difference is though, we usually draft the best available talent at the pick available which may not be in areas we require depth. Picking up free agents (of any kind as long as no trade is required), we can target players for specific roles in the side.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You call it scraping the bottom of the barrel, I call it giving kids like Cousins, ML, Hanrahan, Nash, Glass et al. a significant run to see how they translate at the higher level.
That's the way to go for mine, rather that scrabbling with your 'depth' to fall in to the finals, and not truly turning over talent to see who might take you all the way to a cup.

I see other clubs doing as you suggest, St Kilda did it famously for years, North quite like that route.
Geelong and Syds only do it when they feel the import is likely to win his position on the field, even if that's the 22nd position.
Otherwise they go with kids.

Fair enough, I can see I see it differently and am happy to have the last word.

At the start of the year we had two players as starting mids who had less than 15 games between them....as starting mids....that’s Gold Coast-like, and the very definition of scraping the barrel.

We were blessed that Worpel developed quickly and had the year he did or else it would’ve been very ugly.

 

[TazHawk15]

I don’t know who looks foward to trade week with more trepidation, me or my boss.

I used to give him about 30% effort for a whole week, now I only give him that for a bloody fortnight.

 

[KermitJagger]

Meh.
And to continue with M-theory, didn't we go that route last year with Minchington, Meadows and Mohr?
Not sure they were great depth even at BH.
Would prefer we build our depth through young players with potential at the draft, including some 19-22 year old mature agers who've developed a little later than their golden TAC brethren.

I like depth when you've been plowing a premiership run.
When you're turning over your list and building a contender, reckon you need to keep churning through talented youngsters and holding on to as many as possible, only then trading a few away for a 'mature' depth player to fill a specific need.

The performance of the club in a general sense depends on the performance of the club at all levels of competition. If we purge all experienced players that aren't playing best 22 football, and at the same time refuse to bring in older players on cheap deals, you struggle in other areas. Historically the Hawks have always kept older guys on the list or brought older guys in as they have a few important roles from a success perspective;

1. They help drive and maintain standards for the kids.
2. They allow for Box Hill to stay successful and able to challenge.
3. They ensure you don't lose too much experience if there are injuries.

When you look back at Hawthorn over the years, we kept blokes like Ozzy around playing in the VFL for the same reason. Whitecross is another one. In recent years we've always had stalwarts that were there to be called upon if needed, but were happy to be the standard bearers at a lower level.

There are reasons that other sporting codes have 15 day contracts and various points throughout the year that you can list an experienced player and a known quantity. It helps you to maintain a healthy list and protects against the worst case scenarios.

Otherwise you're Carlton with a VFL and AFL side full of kids that don't experience success at any level they play at.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

The performance of the club in a general sense depends on the performance of the club at all levels of competition. If we purge all experienced players that aren't playing best 22 football, and at the same time refuse to bring in older players on cheap deals, you struggle in other areas. Historically the Hawks have always kept older guys on the list or brought older guys in as they have a few important roles from a success perspective;

1. They help drive and maintain standards for the kids.
2. They allow for Box Hill to stay successful and able to challenge.
3. They ensure you don't lose too much experience if there are injuries.

When you look back at Hawthorn over the years, we kept blokes like Ozzy around playing in the VFL for the same reason. Whitecross is another one. In recent years we've always had stalwarts that were there to be called upon if needed, but were happy to be the standard bearers at a lower level.

There are reasons that other sporting codes have 15 day contracts and various points throughout the year that you can list an experienced player and a known quantity. It helps you to maintain a healthy list and protects against the worst case scenarios.

Otherwise you're Carlton with a VFL and AFL side full of kids that don't experience success at any level they play at.

You left out Willsmore.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Greenwood is a good player, definitely would be a good addition to our list. He has broken games open before.
Uncomfortable with the rumour about his management putting a $750k price on his head though.

Which games has he broken apart before?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Seriously hoping we get greenwood. Games in the midfield have been excellent. Just been played out of position.

What games has he played in the midfield, and which ones were excellent?

 

[flinchfree]

Yeh, think perhaps a few might be stretching what I'm saying about a 30 year old Weagle as being not such good prospective depth, and the idea of not having a single player over the age of 23 on the list...

Minch Mohr and Meadows were a perfect example. None of them were brought in with the belief they were instant 22, but depth in case of injury or the possibility they might hit career form and force out an established player. Or at least better the depth that Brand, Cuz, and Hanners/Morrison/Moore were and are.
I'm personally thrilled we got the games into Cousins to see where he stands. It's fair to say the coaches know more too, the player knows the level he's got to get to that's obviously tougher than what he dominates, and Moore has shown...well, not too much.

If any of you choose to, you can go back to the thread on bringing over Hendo and you'll find from my very first post I was super pleased about him and his upside. Others on here were not so much for the large majority, and called him depth. I would have seen that as a total waste of time. I saw a player who was best 22 from the first round of the year and that could contribute in winning fashion to what we wanted to do on the ground. No need to try and school me on him, he was never depth in my eyes.

Yes I like Box Hill, and no i don't think we can have all the champions at every level.
Back to regular programming.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Greenwood and masten? Wow!
How about next year we throw Harry Jones in the guts, Ross half frwd, keep pumping games into Ollie and Nash to develop into hardened senior players and whip young Moore on the wing to see how they go in the Big league??
Now THAT would excite me for 2020!

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Yeh, think perhaps a few might be stretching what I'm saying about a 30 year old Weagle as being not such good prospective depth, and the idea of not having a single player over the age of 23 on the list...

Minch Mohr and Meadows were a perfect example. None of them were brought in with the belief they were instant 22, but depth in case of injury or the possibility they might hit career form and force out an established player. Or at least better the depth that Brand, Cuz, and Hanners/Morrison/Moore were and are.
I'm personally thrilled we got the games into Cousins to see where he stands. It's fair to say the coaches know more too, the player knows the level he's got to get to that's obviously tougher than what he dominates, and Moore has shown...well, not too much.

If any of you choose to, you can go back to the thread on bringing over Hendo and you'll find from my very first post I was super pleased about him and his upside. Others on here were not so much for the large majority, and called him depth. I would have seen that as a total waste of time. I saw a player who was best 22 from the first round of the year and that could contribute in winning fashion to what we wanted to do on the ground. No need to try and school me on him, he was never depth in my eyes.

Yes I like Box Hill, and no i don't think we can have all the champions at every level.
Back to regular programming.

Again - Meadows isn’t on the Hawthorn list.

 

[KermitJagger]

What games has he played in the midfield, and which ones were excellent?

Hugh Greenwood would be a great signing, but if we do bring him across it's going to be majority forward with the occasional midfield rotation.

He's elite in the contested side of the game, hunts the ground ball and can compete aerially if required. He's a reliable enough scorer, which would improve in time. Decent pick up, would just be concerned with the contract length he's chasing.

Yeh, think perhaps a few might be stretching what I'm saying about a 30 year old Weagle as being not such good prospective depth, and the idea of not having a single player over the age of 23 on the list...

Minch Mohr and Meadows were a perfect example. None of them were brought in with the belief they were instant 22, but depth in case of injury or the possibility they might hit career form and force out an established player. Or at least better the depth that Brand, Cuz, and Hanners/Morrison/Moore were and are.
I'm personally thrilled we got the games into Cousins to see where he stands. It's fair to say the coaches know more too, the player knows the level he's got to get to that's obviously tougher than what he dominates, and Moore has shown...well, not too much.

If any of you choose to, you can go back to the thread on bringing over Hendo and you'll find from my very first post I was super pleased about him and his upside. Others on here were not so much for the large majority, and called him depth. I would have seen that as a total waste of time. I saw a player who was best 22 from the first round of the year and that could contribute in winning fashion to what we wanted to do on the ground. No need to try and school me on him, he was never depth in my eyes.

Yes I like Box Hill, and no i don't think we can have all the champions at every level.
Back to regular programming.

Again - we didn't bring in Meadows. He's a Box Hill listed player.

You need to consider it in the context of what we will be losing. There will be an excessive amount of experience walking out the door this off season, which to some extent needs to be leveled out.

A 30 year old Masten holds more positives for the club than a late pick who is a long shot to even play AFL level.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Hugh Greenwood would be a great signing, but if we do bring him across it's going to be majority forward with the occasional midfield rotation.

He's elite in the contested side of the game, hunts the ground ball and can compete aerially if required. He's a reliable enough scorer, which would improve in time. Decent pick up, would just be concerned with the contract length he's chasing.



Again - we didn't bring in Meadows. He's a Box Hill listed player.

You need to consider it in the context of what we will be losing. There will be an excessive amount of experience walking out the door this off season, which to some extent needs to be leveled out.

A 30 year old Masten holds more positives for the club than a late pick who is a long shot to even play AFL level.

I like his marking ability and his ferocious tackling. I agree that he could play in the forward line for us, but not as a midfielder.

 

[flinchfree]

Again - Meadows isn’t on the Hawthorn list.

.........


Again - we didn't bring in Meadows. He's a Box Hill listed player.

You need to consider it in the context of what we will be losing. There will be an excessive amount of experience walking out the door this off season, which to some extent needs to be leveled out.

A 30 year old Masten holds more positives for the club than a late pick who is a long shot to even play AFL level.

Ok Mr and Mrs pedantic.
He arrived from the blue, not WA, to try his hand at Box Hill.
Hawthorn didn't suggest the move, didn't offer the possibility of being added to the team.
He never played in the intra club, wasn't talked about as a real chance of being put on the list, is just a dude.
Should change his name to Neva linked to Hawks just so that everyone can be real clear.
I'm with ya.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Ok Mr and Mrs pedantic.
He arrived from the blue, not WA, to try his hand at Box Hill.
Hawthorn didn't suggest the move, didn't offer the possibility of being added to the team.
He never played in the intra club, wasn't talked about as a real chance of being put on the list, is just a dude.
Should change his name to Neva linked to Hawks just so that everyone can be real clear.
I'm with ya.

He’s not on the Hawthorn list - so he’s moot to the point you’re trying to make. You may as well bring Andrew Moore into your argument.

If Meadows was on the list he is only 24 so not exactly old and still not relevant to the points you’re making about bringing older players in when we should focus on youth.

 

[KermitJagger]

Ok Mr and Mrs pedantic.
He arrived from the blue, not WA, to try his hand at Box Hill.
Hawthorn didn't suggest the move, didn't offer the possibility of being added to the team.
He never played in the intra club, wasn't talked about as a real chance of being put on the list, is just a dude.
Should change his name to Neva linked to Hawks just so that everyone can be real clear.
I'm with ya.

This isn't being pedantic. You've made a blatantly incorrect statement.

He's not taking up a list position, he's not taking up salary cap, he means nothing when it comes to your point about who or who you wouldn't have on the list. Whether we were considering signing him up or not is beside the point.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Also who is Mr Pedantic and who is Mrs Pedantic in this scenario.

rogiebear93 are you up for some monogrammed towels?

 

[KermitJagger]

Also who is Mr Pedantic and who is Mrs Pedantic in this scenario.

rogiebear93 are you up for some monogrammed towels?

Only if we get matching dressing gowns

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I’m generally up for signing anyone in a pressure forward role if it means Wingard plays midfield 90% of the time next year. Having four mids who can kick goals on the run (Mitchell, JOM, Worps and Wingard) would certainly help us crack the century scores more next season. Greenwood is more than welcome in my eyes if that’s the role he is filling.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Greenwood and masten? Wow!
How about next year we throw Harry Jones in the guts, Ross half frwd, keep pumping games into Ollie and Nash to develop into hardened senior players and whip young Moore on the wing to see how they go in the Big league??
Now THAT would excite me for 2020!

We will most likely do all that, but not all at once.

Seems like this is what people can’t get into their head.

You can’t develop everyone at once, or you get belted. You need depth and role players.

Clarkson has shown time and again that he will not put kids into the team and let them be slaughtered. It’s always measured and with support around them.

 

[Mojo]

I don’t know who looks foward to trade week with more trepidation, me or my boss.

I used to give him about 30% effort for a whole week, now I only give him that for a bloody fortnight.

I hope you're not a surgeon..

 

[f4zz]

He's not fast enough to be a high pressure forward. But he is a tough in and under non compromising player that tackles and takes marks. Also knows how to win a contested footy. Think of him more like a jordan lewis type player but not as prolific in the midfield.

If he doesn't work out in the midfield is he a possible replacement for poppy up forward? I've not seen much of him, and its very hard to assess him using stats because of being shared so much between midfield and forward line (assuming his low possession games are mainly forward, but hard to know if they were just quiet games in the midfield). Guessing on forward/midfield mix, he seems to hit the scoreboard more than Poppy managed this year when forward. His tackles inside 50 also suggests his forward pressure is pretty decent (probably as good as anyone we've currently got to replace poppy with). You mention you think he's played out of position forward, but from what you've seen of him, can he play the role of a pressure forward if needed?

 

[f4zz]

Look at his 2018 season, not 2019. Played well in 2018.

What games has he played in the midfield, and which ones were excellent?

 

[LRobbo]

Greenwood would be a tremendous addition. Tough, contested beast and good over head.
We don’t yet have a midfield enforcer, we need a brute in there who can dish out some heavy tackles or lay some blocks for our other mids who are all 5’10-6ft types. We need a bull.

He may be 27 but in football terms he’s more like 23. Hasn’t got the mileage of a 27 year old.

People are short sighted, no he’s not Coniglio, but he’s is a handy footballer who can contribute to Hawthorn going up the ladder. Can’t just have the same 22 all year, you need a squad to win finals and flags.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

There seems to be lots of love around for Christian Petracca and us. Many have talked themselves into liking the idea.
For what it is worth I have had long standing appreciation of the idea.

Someone close has long term connection to his camp but I am afraid I continue to get crickets.

Probably because he is undecided but leaning towards staying hence the non news. Think it will become clearer in the next couple of weeks.