2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[Slainte]

I agree TMs ball use dropped off since his knee injury but one thing he could still do was win the ball. And if you have to ball the opposition doesn't.

Like I said now Tom is gone we don't have one proven contested ball winner in the list.

Plenty of young mids that could become that but that is still not a given, just a possibility.

Makes me a little surprised we didn't target a mid twenties inside mid in the draft but I guess we still have one spot on the list so it could still happen

It rather suggests that we are confident that, having added Stephens, we have sufficient extractors on the list. The obvious candidates are Worpel, Nash, Maginness, Stephens and maybe MacDonald with Wingard and Moore providing cameos. Ward and McKenzie seem to be more inside/outside players than extractors but it is early days.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Very optimistic about our future mids, however, if we include rucks in our starting centre 4, we’ve got collective experience of almost less than 100 games. And that’s with Worpel in there. Replace him and it’s closer to 50 games and even less with different combinations.

Given we’ll be working with new game plans, structures and running patterns, and coming up against well drilled midfields with 600+ games of collective experience in many cases, I just don’t see a scenario where we aren’t getting completely smashed for significant periods of the season.

And that’s certainly not a bad thing, it’s the growing pains we’d expect and need to grow. Im personally looking forward to it and celebrating the small wins.

The previous mids had their flaws but ultimately they were hardened and experienced and very talented, even when it didn’t suit the game style we wanted to play. As a result, last year we still were able to soak up pressure and hold firm on the arm wrestle for long periods of games. We just won’t be able to do that with such an inexperienced group. We’ll have moments of brilliance where it all clicks and looks incredible, but I suspect we’ll be taking a necessary step backwards in terms of overall midfield performance.

 

[Dewnior]

I'll put it as simply as I can.

Despite our midfield being bad last year, it shouldn't be an expectation that our midfield will automatically improve this year given the player losses. It might, and I have high hope that it will, but given that we've only just lost our two most prolific clearance mids, our #1 ruck and captain, there's a good chance it won't.

Reeves had already gone past BB prior to BB's injury. I think the loss of Gunston and BB to the forward line is a bigger issue than the loss of TOM & JOM to the midfield. Lewis now gets the best defender and/or is double teamed every week and we don't have another ready made foil for him.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Reeves had already gone past BB prior to BB's injury. I think the loss of Gunston and BB to the forward line is a bigger issue than the loss of TOM & JOM to the midfield. Lewis now gets the best defender and/or is double teamed every week and we don't have another ready made foil for him.

The best tall defender will get drawn to cover Meek/Reeves, when they’re down there.

 

[Dewnior]

The best tall defender will get drawn to cover Meek/Reeves, when they’re down there.

Both don't present as much danger as a Lewis, Gunston, BB combo though

 

[KermitJagger]

Reeves had already gone past BB prior to BB's injury. I think the loss of Gunston and BB to the forward line is a bigger issue than the loss of TOM & JOM to the midfield. Lewis now gets the best defender and/or is double teamed every week and we don't have another ready made foil for him.

He definitely hadn't gone past McEvoy. I'm a Reeves fan and I wouldn't go that far at all, there's a reason why Sam didn't want McEvoy to retire.

Either way, as I said previously, over half the league is still trying to find one tall forward as good as Lewis let alone worrying about a second. It's all for nothing if the ball doesn't get there, hence the midfield being a bigger issue. I've seen average forward lines in flag winning teams but I've never seen a team win a flag with an average midfield.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

He definitely hadn't gone past McEvoy. I'm a Reeves fan and I wouldn't go that far at all, there's a reason why Sam didn't want McEvoy to retire.

Either way, as I said previously, over half the league is still trying to find one tall forward as good as Lewis let alone worrying about a second. It's all for nothing if the ball doesn't get there, hence the midfield being a bigger issue. I've seen average forward lines in flag winning teams but I've never seen a team win a flag with an average midfield.

Yeh having a poor midfield is the equivalent of being a pro golfer who shanks your one wood into the trees every time they tee up.

I have said it before but it was baffling to me that for about 5 years straight Clarko and the recruiting team drafted so many back flankers / utilities and bugger all midfielders.

It seemed they wanted to play the game of our half back line and were happy to concede the clearances / centre bounces which is like a boxer deciding to go into a fight with one hand tied behind his back!

 

[Dipper]

Yeh having a poor midfield is the equivalent of being a pro golfer who shanks your one wood into the trees every time they tee up.

I have said it before but it was baffling to me that for about 5 years straight Clarko and the recruiting team drafted so many back flankers / utilities and bugger all midfielders.

It seemed they wanted to play the game of our half back line and were happy to concede the clearances / centre bounces which is like a boxer deciding to go into a fight with one hand tied behind his back!

I agree that it was flawed but they would probably argue that the correct analogy to that approach is rope-a-dope.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Throughout 2012 to 2015 we had the best and most flexible midfield mix in the competition, the likes of Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne and Lewis were not only surgical with their ball use but used to be able to brutalize the opposition when the time called for it, on top of that , they were adaptable in playing half back or half frwd with equally great effect but let's not forget that it took a few years before this set up started to work. İt doesn't happen overnight, it takes repetition and maturity over time of plying their trade together. This new ' bunch' don't have to replicate exactly what those four legends achieved as it's not fair to heap that sort of pressure on youngsters coming through. But the thought process would be the same as Sam was in the thick of it himself for all those years. İt'll take time but our midfield group is so young that time isn't a big problem going frwd. I have faith.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Throughout 2012 to 2015 we had the best and most flexible midfield mix in the competition, the likes of Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne and Lewis were not only surgical with their ball use but used to be able to brutalize the opposition when the time called for it, on top of that , they were adaptable in playing half back or half frwd with equally great effect but let's not forget that it took a few years before this set up started to work. İt doesn't happen overnight, it takes repetition and maturity over time of plying their trade together. This new ' bunch' don't have to replicate exactly what those four legends achieved as it's not fair to heap that sort of pressure on youngsters coming through. But the thought process would be the same as Sam was in the thick of it himself for all those years. İt'll take time but our midfield group is so young that time isn't a big problem going frwd. I have faith.

I reckon our forward line is more of an issue than our midfield now

 

[halfback dasher]

I don’t think any area is of concern …
Its ALL under development….
concern comes with failure and to be fair our lines are young and unproven .

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I reckon our forward line is more of an issue than our midfield now

Our lack of a genuine foil for Lewis is a big concern. Hopefully Meek and Reeves can add some assistance if they are resting forward - but while I’m super bullish on Reeves, BB’s ability to mark it beautifully up forward and slot goals from all over was huge for us and both Reeves and Meek may have BB covered in the rucking duties but they aren’t a threat up forward like he was.

I’m hoping that Kosi can turn his endeavour into genuine forward craft this year or that someone can take his spot in the side because Lewis can’t afford to get double teamed all season.

 

[arupist]

I don’t think any area is of concern …
Its ALL under development….
concern comes with failure and to be fair our lines are young and unproven .

This is the thing, HBD. A developing side learning to play together with good coaching will end up a better team than trying to trade in expensive stars.

I once took over coaching a school side about one third of the way through the season. They were getting smashed by 20 goals a game. Ended up making the grand final only to lose after the siren at about the 38 minute mark. The umpire and timekeeper were both staff at the winning school. Not that they would have done anything to impact the outome, mind you. The kids played out of their skins to get there and had unbelievable self-belief. Never coached again as I couldn't cope with the stress and the heartache. That was several lifetimes ago.

The point is that you don't need a team of superstars, only guys with sufficient skill to execute the game plan and the dedication to see it through. We seem to have a cohesive group of young blokes who can all play footy. Let's give the coaches a chance to put it all together.

 

[TAITA]

I don’t think any area is of concern …
Its ALL under development….
concern comes with failure and to be fair our lines are young and unproven .

Absolutely - I think we have the cattle we need and we have fast tracked that big time.

So now it's up to Mitchy to do something out of the box that blows the competition out of the water.

First use of the ball would be something I've never encounterd in my footy life at Hawthorn, we've had some good really honest competitors since and before Fish & Rehn but I am over us being defensive at the centre square.

 

[TAITA]

This is the thing, HBD. A developing side learning to play together with good coaching will end up a better team than trying to trade in expensive stars.

I once took over coaching a school side about one third of the way through the season. They were getting smashed by 20 goals a game. Ended up making the grand final only to lose after the siren at about the 38 minute mark. The umpire and timekeeper were both staff at the winning school. Not that they would have done anything to impact the outome, mind you. The kids played out of their skins to get there and had unbelievable self-belief. Never coached again as I couldn't cope with the stress and the heartache. That was several lifetimes ago.

The point is that you don't need a team of superstars, only guys with sufficient skill to execute the game plan and the dedication to see it through. We seem to have a cohesive group of young blokes who can all play footy. Let's give the coaches a chance to put it all together.

The game is lessor for your absence.

I understand more than most the sacrifice made to guide young men and women into both adulthood and understanding of a team involvement.

And I also understand the real or imagined psyche of cheating by s**t people at s**t clubs.

But you are one less good person helping to guide our young people to better values and morals.

We need you mate.

Mental health services for young people - it's eyewatering post Covid.

 

[HedgeFund]

First, we didn't retire McEvoy - it was entirely his decision.

As he well understood, his body was no longer up to it.

Last year there were periods when we had to ruck Kosi and Nash, neither or whom are suited.

We now have three good-sized rucks who are approaching an age when we can expect them to have an impact or at least square contests.

It is a vastly improved situation that will make our midfield more competitive.

McEvoys neck injury was a totally freak occurrence. Likewise Lynch’s concussion and Reeves shoulder.

This time last year, they were all fit and ready to play.

To suggest our ruck situation has improved with Meek arriving to replace McEvoy is to presume we will have no injuries and all 3 will develop and contribute.

That’s pure speculation.

 

[HedgeFund]

Reeves had already gone past BB prior to BB's injury. I think the loss of Gunston and BB to the forward line is a bigger issue than the loss of TOM & JOM to the midfield. Lewis now gets the best defender and/or is double teamed every week and we don't have another ready made foil for him.

Now that’s funny.

They played 4 games together in 2022.

In each of those games McEvoy had more of the footy and had more taps to advantage / win than Reeves.

All Ned had was more taps, but not taps to advantage / win.

Ned was able to kick 4 goals in those games because McEvoy took most of the CBAs (due to his superior ruck craft).

 

[Slainte]

McEvoys neck injury was a totally freak occurrence. Likewise Lynch’s concussion and Reeves shoulder.

This time last year, they were all fit and ready to play.

To suggest our ruck situation has improved with Meek arriving to replace McEvoy is to presume we will have no injuries and all 3 will develop and contribute.

That’s pure speculation.

If the neck injury was the only issue, you would be right. However, McEvoy had reached the point in his career when's ruck work was pretty ineffective (he was only ever a fair average ruckman - his true value was as a big utility with a big tank who could intercept in the back half and create a forward option). Reeves and Lynch were novices. This year Reeves and Lynch are a year older and we have a third ruckman with both size and a tank. We also have the emerging Ramsden (who the spellchecker keeps turning into to an Islamic holy month). Regardless of injuries, I am very confident that our mids will get better service this coming season.

 

[Dewnior]

Now that’s funny.

They played 4 games together in 2022.

In each of those games McEvoy had more of the footy and had more taps to advantage / win than Reeves.

All Ned had was more taps, but not taps to advantage / win.

Ned was able to kick 4 goals in those games because McEvoy took most of the CBAs (due to his superior ruck craft).

Was this before or after Ned's shoulder injury?

Go watch the Easter Monday game again.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

I remember looking at our list at the end of 2019 and being really flat.

CJ had hardly played a game and purely speculation. Lewis and Reeves were also unknown projects.

Worpel had a great year but I felt (and still feel) his ceiling was limited and was not the number 1 mid going forward

Scrimshaw and Moore were the two most promising kids and they hadn't done much.

2020 wasnt much better, we only really added day and Finn in the off season.

Since then, in 2 years, the 5 mentioned above have all come on beautifully and we have added Newc, Cmac, Cmac, Ward, Stephens, butler, brocky, Reeves, weddle, Hustwaite, dgb and blanck as well as meek and Amon for some prime age class.

And of course sammy.

Astonishing turnaround really. So exciting

Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

 

[peetoo]

Funny thing is, a lot is made of experience lost, but from the final hawthorn team of 2021, oldest 4 players leaving loss around 186 games average. From the final team 2022, oldest 4 departing players 198 games average.

I wonder what the average across all teams all seasons would be

Of course Burgoyne 407 games, but there really wasn’t the media angst, and they had been spruiking the need to trade out Mitch and omeara. I sense a bit of twisted triggering by certain media people.
And frankly, if Gunston hadn’t left, it wouldn’t be much of a thing anyway.

40 plus goals lost compared to 24 in 2021 is more of a thing

 

[burner1]

So much unknown going in to 2023.

We could get absolutely pounded in the midfield in 2023 or our youth could surprise. All realistic possibilities.

I reckon some of the senior guys we’ve lost had an impact in a lot of our wins. That’s the bit that will be hard to replace - guys stepping up to be in top handful on ground rather than supporting players and turning a possible 2 goal loss into a win.

An 8 win season in 2022 could easily be a 5-6 win season in 2023 (which could be bottom 3-4) - but we may have had a great year but just not enough overall class or experience to turn promising performances into wins.

At the very least we’ll know far more about where we stand in 12 months.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Was this before or after Ned's shoulder injury?

Go watch the Easter Monday game again.

Crazy the influence Ned had on that game prior to going off. If he stayed on the field we would have absolutely destroyed them.

 

[theiaofseed]

Our lack of a genuine foil for Lewis is a big concern. Hopefully Meek and Reeves can add some assistance if they are resting forward - but while I’m super bullish on Reeves, BB’s ability to mark it beautifully up forward and slot goals from all over was huge for us and both Reeves and Meek may have BB covered in the rucking duties but they aren’t a threat up forward like he was.

I’m hoping that Kosi can turn his endeavour into genuine forward craft this year or that someone can take his spot in the side because Lewis can’t afford to get double teamed all season.

You don't need two big KP's to be successful, Geelong of 2007-10 had Mooney as their number KP which says all you need to know.

 

[Gut Runner]

Was this before or after Ned's shoulder injury?

Go watch the Easter Monday game again.

Look, he had an awesome qtr. But geez you cannot base his future off 1 qtr. I will need to see blocks of solid games to think he will have the potential to move to one of the top rucks in the game.

Also didn't do the basics in that game and man the goal line when Cameron dribbled a shocker through.