Oppo Camp Jaidyn Stephenson (Traded to Nth Melb. 2020)

[BLS World Wide]

I still maintain that we thought we could get pick 2 from North for Stevo and pick 5 from GC for Treloar.

I still found it interesting that Essendon weren’t interested in Treloar or Hawthorn in Stevo

Maybe they weren’t interested in them?

 

[Gone Critical]

I agree that salary pressure was the main reason for getting rid of players. but why get rid of Stephenson in particular?? Phillips, I agree was simply he was on a lot and not getting a game. Treloar, was because we had his Salary back-ended but why was Stepho. the third to go, he was young, talented, had great potential?? Everyone knows there was more to it than getting rid of him than just $$$.

Maybe Phillips wasn’t going to get a game
going forward and it was one of the levers that was apparently used to force him out but it hadn’t happened yet.

He was never dropped in 2020 and up until he got injured in round 15 had played 70 consecutive games. Collingwood forced him out because he was being overpayed not because he wasn’t best 22.

 

[Gone Critical]

There were several other players who could have been forced out that would have given cap relief. It’s naive to believe that other factors weren’t at play with Stephenson.

There were probably not a lot of players being paid good coin where it looked overs. These 3 were the obvious choices for cap reasons.

I am not saying there were not other reasons why these 3 were the ones chosen but that the driver was the cap issue and if that wasn’t a problem all would still be at Collingwood.

 

[Jen2310]

Maybe Phillips wasn’t going to get a game
going forward and it was one of the levers that was apparently used to force him out but it hadn’t happened yet.

He was never dropped in 2020 and up until he got injured in round 15 had played 70 games. Collingwood forced him out because he was being overpayed not because he wasn’t best 22.

Thats true. They even played him out of position. Its not that they didnt want him, just was on too much money, and I think prob was in phillips best interests to go somewhere that can utilize his strengths on the wing. Don't think there is any hard feelings between both parties in terms of phillips.

 

[Gone Critical]

Thats true. They even played him out of position. Its not that they didnt want him, just was on too much money, and I think prob was in phillips best interests to go somewhere that can utilize his strengths on the wing. Don't think there is any hard feelings between both parties in terms of phillips.

Not based on the story I have heard. We are lucky he is such a good type and knows there is little benefit in dumping on us. Still we treated him poorly, forced him out against his will and were not below trying to force him out on less money

He and his management held out and we will still be paying him in 2021. He might not dump on us as he isn’t the type but the club made sure he understands this is business and Collingwood doesn’t stand side by side or show loyalty.

He resisted the attempts to move him in 2019 but the club made him have no choice in 2020.

It’s this stuff and an increased likelihood we slide down the ladder in 2021 due to our terrible offseason that will make us an unlikely free agent destination.

 

[Jen2310]

Not based on the story I have heard. We are lucky he is such a good type and knows there is little benefit in dumping on us. Still we treated him poorly, forced him out against his will and were not below trying to force him out on less money

He and his management held out and we will still be paying him in 2021. He might not dump on us as he isn’t the type but the club made sure he understands this is business and Collingwood doesn’t stand side by side or show loyalty.

He resisted the attempts to move him in 2019 but the club made him have no choice in 2020.

It’s this stuff and an increased likelihood we slide down the ladder in 2021 due to our terrible offseason that will make us an unlikely free agent destination.

I don't buy into that. That 2021 will be terrible just because of the off-season. The club has moved on, the playing list is in a great vibe. It's gonna depend on injuries, given our depth is young; where we land on the ladder.

 

[THATSGOLD]

WHE and Stepho's stats and impact are both pretty similar really.

2018 both played very well for us, part of that dynamic mid sized forwards who provided match-up headaches.

In 2019, we welcomed back Billy Elliott as another small forward, so WHE got pushed further up the ground.

2020 both had poor years, Stepho was woeful actually.

If Pies made the call they don't like what they saw from Stepho from a professional perspective, correct call to cash in on him while we can.

We still have quite a few smaller leading forward types on the list

Define cashing in the rising star winner one season after he won it.

 

[sr36]

Define cashing in the rising star winner one season after he won it.

cashing in the rising star winner one season after he won it: a phrase pointing out that Fremantle should have traded Rhys Palmer straight after he won the Rising Star award. Unfortunately for Freo they got in too late. The phrase also applies to Jesse Hogan and Lewis Taylor and may end up applying to Jaidyn Stephenson.

 

[The Plowking]

Going to be an interesting watch

Yep.
Reckon they'll just play him.

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't buy into that. That 2021 will be terrible just because of the off-season. The club has moved on, the playing list is in a great vibe. It's gonna depend on injuries, given our depth is young; where we land on the ladder.

Love your undying optimism for the club Jen

Still I didn’t say we would be terrible I said we would likely slide down the ladder because of our terrible off season. The slide won’t just be because of the off season it’s also because the list has lost serious talent and we have had to replace that talent with 1st year players. We are weaker in 2021 compared to 2020.

Re the good vibe. Every list is flying currently. Nobody has lost a game, everyone’s recruits are likely
March champions. It’s when a few losses occur, maybe a few players get picked before they are ready that any cracks that are there will start to appear

I hope you are right and things are great. However we as a club have shots ourselves in the foot numerous times this off season and I think it would be a mistake for the club and supporters to shake it off too easily. I think there will still be changes needed and a bit more pain.

 

[jathanas]

Love your undying optimism for the club Jen

Still I didn’t say we would be terrible I said we would likely slide down the ladder because of our terrible off season. The slide won’t just be because of the off season it’s also because the list has lost serious talent and we have had to replace that talent with 1st year players. We are weaker in 2021 compared to 2020.

Re the good vibe. Every list is flying currently. Nobody has lost a game, everyone’s recruits are likely
March champions. It’s when a few losses occur, maybe a few players get picked before they are ready that any cracks that are there will start to appear

I hope you are right and things are great. However we as a club have shots ourselves in the foot numerous times this off season and I think it would be a mistake for the club and supporters to shake it off too easily. I think there will still be changes needed and a bit more pain.

I agree that on paper our list is weaker and that the club has once again experienced a tumultuous preparation.

Letting go of the players we did in the manner that we have will not have resulted in improved morale, quite the opposite IMO.

I too hope I'm wrong but I can't reconcile how we can improve next year with the same coaching group and a weakened list.

 

[doppleganger]

Define cashing in the rising star winner one season after he won it.

He won it in 2018

Come 2020 he was a shadow of that bright spark who burst onto the scene.

If his 2020 form is a true reflection of long term output, than we did well to get a club to take on his contract that was based on 2018 form.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Collingwoods bookkeeping got away from them and the Grundy & Moore contracts broke the Camel's back.

Something had to give.

 

[gouki88]

Collingwoods bookkeeping got away from them and the Grundy & Moore contracts broke the Camel's back.

Something had to give.

Giving bloated deals of between $500-600k to guys like Phillips and Stephenson wasn't helpful either. Woeful mismanagement of salaries. Basically giving players whatever they asked for seemingly

 

[doppleganger]

The slide won’t just be because of the off season it’s also because the list has lost serious talent and we have had to replace that talent with 1st year players. We are weaker in 2021 compared to 2020.

We are weaker if a kid can't come in and better Stepho's 2020 output....it won't be hard

We are weaker if we can't find a replacement for Treloar, but we have Sidey fresh and waiting to come back

Flip was an avg contributor in 2020, surely we can push a guy like IQ onto a wing and not lose much, or a kid like Macrae.

The vets we lost off our list - Reid, Varcoe, Beams, Dunne, Langdon - none gave us anything in 2020

The key to weather we slide or improve will be how Howe integrates into the back six, and weather Grundy and DeGoey can have AA quality seasons.

Having an injection of youth on the training track instead of injured veterans will be a positive change.[/QUOTE]

 

[Snake_Baker]

Giving bloated deals of between $500-600k to guys like Phillips and Stephenson wasn't helpful either. Woeful mismanagement of salaries. Basically giving players whatever they asked for seemingly

Fair enough, but let's not deny that it was Grundy & Moore's contracts that set this off. It was terrible list administration by Collingwood. I hope some of the kids from this year pay off and there's some silver lining for the fans.

 

[cakewalk06]

Fair enough, but let's not deny that it was Grundy & Moore's contracts that set this off. It was terrible list administration by Collingwood. I hope some of the kids from this year pay off and there's some silver lining for the fans.

Disagree Snake. It was the proliferation of back-ended deals and paying the mid-range players over-the-top money, including Phillips. Stevo a huge talent but his money was much too high, too quickly, especially after his 10-match ban. Apparently Bed Reid even stayed an extra year on 500k because his money had been pushed back from previous seasons, even though is body was shot.

Grundy was close to the No.1 most valuable player in the game when he signed his big deal. Sure he had a bad year, but that happens and he is our marquee player, whether we like it or not. Moore is the All Australian CHB and if he stays sound one of the best KP in the game. No qualms about paying him his real value.

So in short, those two deals are not the straws that broke the camel's back. It was broken a long way before that as we had a swing at a flag. The Beams scenario did not help. Mismanagement yes, but you have to pay your trumps accordingly so in no way do is see Grundy on a mill and Moore on 800 or whatever as the problem.

 

[Gone Critical]

We are weaker if a kid can't come in and better Stepho's 2020 output....it won't be hard

We are weaker if we can't find a replacement for Treloar, but we have Sidey fresh and waiting to come back

Flip was an avg contributor in 2020, surely we can push a guy like IQ onto a wing and not lose much, or a kid like Macrae.

The vets we lost off our list - Reid, Varcoe, Beams, Dunne, Langdon - none gave us anything in 2020

The key to weather we slide or improve will be how Howe integrates into the back six, and weather Grundy and DeGoey can have AA quality seasons.

Having an injection of youth on the training track instead of injured veterans will be a positive change.

[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen this argument made by a few but don’t agree with it. We won’t miss Treloar, Stevo and Phillips because Sidey will have a better year and be more available and Howes back.

Both these things are good things as are AA seasons from Grundy and De Goey. But that doesn’t replace the loss of output the 3 we pushed out would likely give compared to the 3 1st year kids that have replaced them on the list.

To your positives you will find other negatives will emerge. Try these examples. The end comes quickly for Pendles as a mid as at 33 with full length matches and full length season take its toll. Taylor Adams season is punctuated by soft tissue injuries and he only plays 15 games. De Goey court case goes badly. Daics doesn’t frank his rise of last season and is just average. 1 or 2 players suffer season ending injuries.

Some or none of the events above may happen. Whichever way it goes we would be stronger in season 2021 with the 3 we forced out on the list rather that the kids we replaced them with

Now maybe in the long run Hine has struck
gold and we do end up better off, that’s the hope.

It is worth considering though that Phillips has/will have a better career than the majority of pick 17s since the draft started so if pick 17 turns out as good as Phillips you could consider that a good outcome.

 

[jackcass]

Na, Thomas was completely putrid regardless of how our ball movement was.

Of course. Strange that his best games and periods within games were aligned to our better ball movement.

 

[Kappa]

Of course. Strange that his best games and periods within games were aligned to our better ball movement.

Well yes, forwards can play better when given more opportunities, thanks for pointing that out. Regardless of that, he was terrible and regularly make horrific mistakes like missing simple chances and getting caught holding the ball multiple times per game...

 

[jackcass]

Well yes, forwards can play better when given more opportunities, thanks for pointing that out. Regardless of that, he was terrible and regularly make horrific mistakes like missing simple chances and getting caught holding the ball multiple times per game...

You're just making my point for me. Slow ball movement = greater congestion, greater congestion = greater pressure. Thanks.

 

[Kappa]

You're just making my point for me. Slow ball movement = greater congestion, greater congestion = greater pressure. Thanks.

So if the ball movement is slow then no forward can ever be judged as having a "bad game" because it's entirely the ball movements fault?

Have you seriously thought your point through?

 

[jackcass]

So if the ball movement is slow then no forward can ever be judged as having a "bad game" because it's entirely the ball movements fault?

Have you seriously thought your point through?

Yeah, that's what I said

 

[gouki88]

So if the ball movement is slow then no forward can ever be judged as having a "bad game" because it's entirely the ball movements fault?

Have you seriously thought your point through?

Mother of all strawmen

 

[sr36]

Well yes, forwards can play better when given more opportunities, thanks for pointing that out. Regardless of that, he was terrible and regularly make horrific mistakes like missing simple chances and getting caught holding the ball multiple times per game...

Yeah the big difference between Thomas in 2018 and 2020 is that he went from being Uber efficient and taking all his chances to fluffing a heap of them.