Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

[Swallow_Wood]

FIFO earns $200k circa. He's already paying 70k in tax.
Not sure how youve grouped a aussie working class sector (as an example) with Multinational corporations and having similiar access to taxation loop holes.

That will always casuse friction and resistance.
I think Thats where shorten got it so wrong, he attacked the aspirational australians, both the middle class and upper class with the one sledge hammer.


I agree 100%, Government needs to go hard at the corporations dodging tax.
I agree we should look after our sick, vulnerable and elderley.

$200K may be attainable for a shrinking population of FIFO workers but it is definitely not representative of the Aussie Working Class sector mate. That is an total misrepresentation. The average full time wage is roughly $90k before tax and many work their bloody arses off to get that.

Nonetheless what I do not support is a system whereby those with wealth are able to avoid paying their proportion of tax. This isn't of course applicable to everyone with on a very good salary as alluded to in my initial post and referred to clearly here:

I'd much rather focus on ownership. Is the guy who doesn't work but owns ten houses and making $150k a year purely through that ownership deserving of 18 per cent lower marginal tax rate than the FIFO worker doing tonnes of overtime and getting $200k a year (which his employer still makes profit on)? In my opinion, no.

And that's why I stated closing taxation loopholes for those earning over $200k 'and' who have significant wealth generating assets.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Id love for the aussie car industry to come back. I love aussie muscle cars, but I dont think theyll ever come back.

Which is funny considering we deliberately build many of our armoured land vehicles domestically, albeit by large foreign subsidiaries that invest bugger all in Australian capability development.

 

[Themanbun]

$200K may be attainable for a shrinking population of FIFO workers but it is definitely not representative of the Aussie Working Class sector mate. That is an total misrepresentation. The average full time wage is roughly $90k before tax.

Nonetheless what I do not support is a system whereby those with wealth are able to avoid paying their proportion of tax. This isn't of course applicable to everyone with on a very good salary as alluded to in my initial post and referred to clearly here:

And that's why I stated $200k 'and' who have significant wealth generating assets.

I was just quoting RF mate, not you. General commentary from me.

If working class = people who sell their labour to another then there are still significant amounts of people (coders, FIFO with overtime, etc.) who are on significant coin (maybe not $200k in most instances, but still paying far more tax than a company).

It's obviously a minority but I do dislike seeing them punished by high income tax rates.

 

[Royal Flush]

Unfortunately a lot of modern leftist economics has lost touch with relationship to the means of production.

The compromise was taxes which then cultivated an obsession with income. This means that the FIFO worker already getting hammered at a higher tax rate than businesses is seen as someone who should be targeted for redistribution of wealth...despite him selling his labour for another to profit.

I'd much rather focus on ownership. Is the guy who doesn't work but owns ten houses and making $150k a year purely through that ownership deserving of 18 per cent lower marginal tax rate than the FIFO worker doing tonnes of overtime and getting $200k a year (which his employer still makes profit on)? In my opinion, no.

So in this hypothetical, the guy that owns 10 houses, what did he do to get 10 houses?
Im pretty sure, any FIFO thats slightly money savvy, would have an investment property or two?
How peoplepark their money, or where they invest their money, seem to recieve a lot hated toward them, if their investments become a success.

 

[DesertRoo]

Id love for the aussie car industry to come back. I love aussie muscle cars, but I dont think theyll ever come back.

government foresight should’ve been when they bailed them out, take a controlling stake in the industry and then doubled down on electric cars.

 

[Themanbun]

So in this hypothetical, the guy that owns 10 houses, what did he do to get 10 houses?
Im pretty sure, any FIFO thats slightly money savvy, would have an investment property or two?
How peoplepark their money, or where they invest their money, seem to recieve a lot hated toward them, if their investments become a success.

He could have worked, won the lottery, been a trust fund baby, who knows.

Not hatred, just acknowledging that their passive income is passive and therefore doesn't contribute to the productive process, whereas labour produces.

They're just doing what they do to succeed in the current framework. I don't have any animosity. I would like to see that framework evolve over time through targeted attempts to democratise ownership, though.

I don't think the bloke on $200k a year deserves to have an 18 per cent higher marginal tax rate plus Medicare levy than the company which profits 25 per cent less and can write off everything under the sun.

 

[Royal Flush]

See i didn't know that as being a contributing factor to the demise of the aussie car market.

government foresight should’ve been when reheat bailed them out take a controlling stake in the industry and then doubled down on electric cars.

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DesertRoo]

This was the basis for a lot of western world social democrats in their vision towards a transition to socialism, including many in the UK Labour and presumably Australian iterations. They eventually lost out to the labourists (work for the sake of work) and of course went head first into confrontation with unions, whose primary objective is to secure jobs and working conditions, with little regard for automation.

I would propose for Australia the gradualism outlined by GDH Cole as early as the 1920s and 1930s, with the gradual shift towards highly automated and publicly owned essential industries and resources and then administering the unused surplus ('profit') of said entities and resource industries via a social dividend, so that way displaced workers wouldn't be losing out entirely to the productive capacity increased by automation. If successful most people would probably support gradual increases in the breadth and coverage of nationalised industries as it would mean an increase in social dividends, but it could be dialled up and dialled down depending upon how it was working. The goal would be to out compete the private sector and gain market share through productivity, rather than to just regulate them out of existence.
Increasing the dividends would also allow people to scale down working hours lost due to automation with a minimal hip pocket impact.

You could then seek to balance major national industries with market industries for genuinely innovative consumer wants.

Until the unions get on board, and as much as I appreciate them broadly for what they do, I doubt they would, then I can't see it happening.

Interesting concept, and would probably be easier to sell if Australian received a dividend from birth, rather then a universal basic income.
That increased/decreased with national productivity in mind.
Although I wonder how many would bail off to Bali..

 

[samoodan]

Can anyone explain what sort of socialism they want in australia and how that would look?

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

1970s Australia. Both governments.

 

[Themanbun]

Interesting concept, and would probably be easier to sell if Australian received a dividend from birth, rather then a universal basic income.
That increased/decreased with national productivity in mind.
Although I wonder how many would bail off to Bali..

We used to do it for kids via universal child endowments. It harkened back to Paine's 'Rights of the Child'. Was abandoned in the 70s-80s.

General theory is that you have to be resident in the country to receive the dividend. That way you could ensure it would be redirected to consumption within the country, for the most part.

You could potentially target housing affordability. Non-profit socialised construction industry where people index a portion of their dividend to a 'rent to buy' situation, at a minimal or negligible interest rate.

 

[B4Bear]

government foresight should’ve been when they bailed them out, take a controlling stake in the industry and then doubled down on electric cars.

Conservatives are wedded o coal.

Remember the ALP was coming after theV8 Ute last election.

We are so far behind the curve here it is not funny.

 

[samoodan]

Get rid of inheritance. Give it to the government to share around. Lower taxes.

 

[DesertRoo]

See i didn't know that as being a contributing factor to the demise of the aussie car market.

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

Electrical cars are the way of the future, it’ll take a couple of generations and Australia should’ve been on the front foot.. but there was no way they were giving up oil rev any time soon.

 

[Royal Flush]

You eventually loose your house to pay for your stay at a nursing home.
Nothing lost if you didn't have one.

He could have worked, won the lottery, been a trust fund baby, who knows.

Not hatred, just acknowledging that their passive income is passive and therefore doesn't contribute to the productive process, whereas labour produces.

They're just doing what they do to succeed in the current framework. I don't have any animosity. I would like to see that framework evolve over time through targeted attempts to democratise ownership, though.

I don't think the bloke on $200k a year deserves to have an 18 per cent higher marginal tax rate plus Medicare levy than the company which profits 25 per cent less and can write off everything under the sun.

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Swallow_Wood]

I was just quoting RF mate, not you. General commentary from me.

If working class = people who sell their labour to another then there are still significant amounts of people (coders, FIFO with overtime, etc.) who are on significant coin (maybe not $200k in most instances, but still paying far more tax than a company).

It's obviously a minority but I do dislike seeing them punished by high income tax rates.

RF's post was directly commenting on my initial post, so that was the context and hence my reply to you. Now the loop has closed. Kumbaya.

But yeah, those with greater wealth tend to also have greater access to methods of accessing loopholes that assist them in minimising their tax liabilities. From what i can tell the system is designed to protect those with passive wealth and I simply would like to ensure that those who can afford to pay tax proportionate to their wealth do so.

 

[DesertRoo]

Get rid of inheritance. Give it to the government to share around. Lower taxes.

Can’t see death tax passing here..

 

[Royal Flush]

Price of fuel should be dirt cheap, so driving a classic V8 will be fun.
But they'll probably get us with a high rego tax

Electrical cars are the way of the future, it’ll take a couple of generations but Australia should’ve been on the front foot.. but there was no way they were giving up oil rev any time soon.

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DesertRoo]

See i didn't know that as being a contributing factor to the demise of the aussie car market.

On Pixel 4a (5G) using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah the car industry became purely a multinational corporation hostage crisis.. the gov was held over a barrel over job loses.

personally I think they were too soft on negotiations, all government handout to companies should mean a stake in companies that they can’t buy back..

 

[Royal Flush]

Get rid of inheritance. Give it to the government to share around. Lower taxes.

You're being facetious right??

 

[samoodan]

Can’t see death tax passing here..

Death tax sounds nasty. Probably needs to be rebranded. How about "Equality redistribution".....(still awful)

 

[Royal Flush]

Yeah the car industry became purely a multinational hostage crisis.. the gov was held over a barrel over job loses.

personally I think they were too soft on negotiations, all government handout to companies should mean a stake in companies that they can’t buy back..

Yea I agree, Government should hold percentage ownership when they bail out companies.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

Death tax sounds nasty. Probably needs to be rebranded. How about "Equality redistribution".....(still awful)

If a taxation system worked properly when people were alive there wouldn't need to be a 'death tax'.

 

[DesertRoo]

Yea I agree, Government should hold percentage ownership when they bail out companies.

Yep and automatically freeze/restructure board members/executive salaries.. until such time they become profitable.

 

[samoodan]

You're being facetious right??

There are risks involved, but the current system is a disaster. Inheritance is fundamental to inequality

 

[Snake_Baker]

Conservatives are wedded o coal.

People are wedded to coal.

If you're not then turn off your ****ing computer.