Historical rape allegation against the Attorney-General Christian Porter

[Cactus_]

“So will the aim of the inquiry be to find him a little bit guilty, a little bit sleazy, to forensically examine his public response and guess at what can’t be proven?”

I didn’t think much of this quote from Sylvester either. Just because an enquiry can’t find that someone is a rapist beyond reasonable doubt doesn’t mean it can’t show anything of value.

It could show whether Porter’s statements about the case are consistent with various established facts. If Porter was shown to have been lying in his statements that would not prove he is a rapist, but it would show he’s not a fit and proper person to be AG.

An enquiry might also establish whether any undue influence had been brought to bear on police to go slow on their investigation.

It might be able to show if Porter or people acting on behalf of Porter or the government had been contacting the women at the centre of these allegations in the months leading up to her death.

Pretty relevant things for us all to know if we are going to continue to have confidence in our system of government I’d have thought.

 

[Cactus_]

I lean towards innocent, that's what Lindy Chamberlain taught those of us old enough to remember. As I said, in that case they had the forensics on their side to say she was guilty, they had all of the humans involved apart from poor little Azaria herself, so they had absolutely everything they needed apart from the body and she was convicted and then jailed, it turned out it was a load of garbage.

It's the same with Pell too which was overturned on appeal. I'm not a fan of Pell, he's a scumbag that deserved to be locked up for the rest of his miserable life for his decades of enabling the pedo priests to get away with what they did but I don't think he was guilty of what he was actually convicted of and they agreed on appeal.

If he's done it, he will likely get away with it then it just comes down to it now being in the public domain and his conscience.

If he hasn't done it, the damage is done.

It's sh*t like this that has me against there being a death penalty in Australia.

It seems you and one or two others are miscontruing my comments / questions on here, I'm not supporting Porter, I'm just questioning the logic of what some people are posting.

Good post.

Agree on the death penalty. Even the best justice systems are fairly broken. They need to be able to admit that they make mistakes and compensate wrongly convicted people if fresh evidence emerges.

 

[jason_recliner]

I lean towards innocent, that's what Lindy Chamberlain taught those of us old enough to remember. As I said, in that case they had the forensics on their side to say she was guilty, they had all of the humans involved apart from poor little Azaria herself, so they had absolutely everything they needed apart from the body and she was convicted and then jailed, it turned out it was a load of garbage.

It's the same with Pell too which was overturned on appeal. I'm not a fan of Pell, he's a scumbag that deserved to be locked up for the rest of his miserable life for his decades of enabling the pedo priests to get away with what they did but I don't think he was guilty of what he was actually convicted of and they agreed on appeal.

If he's done it, he will likely get away with it then it just comes down to it now being in the public domain and his conscience.

If he hasn't done it, the damage is done.

It's sh*t like this that has me against there being a death penalty in Australia.

It seems you and one or two others are miscontruing my comments / questions on here, I'm not supporting Porter, I'm just questioning the logic of what some people are posting.

Fair enough. I was only a kid when Lindy Chamberlain was tried. I don't know much about that case. I'm not sure how it relates to an historical rape allegation.

I too believed Pell was innocent until recently, as I thought it unlikely that he would offend on only one occasion against two boys and that's it. One of my directors is a senior lawyer and has been closely involved with the catholic church for the last decade due to her son's schooling and friends / associates also working with / investigating the church and Edmund Price. She assures me - and I have no reason not to believe her - that there are many well founded accusations against Pell that, for various reasons, were not able to be tested in court. She is convinced he's guilty of the crimes he appealed and others, and I tend to believe her.

A close friend of an ex, who was herself the victim of a vicious child rape, did her psychology masters on the reliability of rape / assault allegations. It would seem to be a difficult thing to quantify reliably, and I don't know exactly how she and others go about it, but apparently it's accepted that something like 1 - 3% of accusations are likely to be false. Given the detail Katharine Thornton has provided - the string on the wrist so Porter doesn't kiss other girls, for example - and her confidence in many well respected peers, I consider it extremely unlikely that she is lying and Porter is innocent.

 

[Kurve]

It could show whether Porter’s statements about the case are consistent with various established facts. If Porter was shown to have been lying in his statements that would not prove he is a rapist, but it would show he’s not a fit and proper person to be AG.

An enquiry might also establish whether any undue influence had been brought to bear on police to go slow on their investigation.

It might be able to show if Porter or people acting on behalf of Porter or the government had been contacting the women at the centre of these allegations in the months leading up to her death.

Pretty relevant things for us all to know if we are going to continue to have confidence in our system of government I’d have thought.

Agree, very important for the public to have these questions answered but I'm pretty sure the complainant's family will demand that they are and that's what the coroner's there for.

On Turnbull's statements suggesting we shouldn't make the assumption she's taken her own life and that Porter was in communications, I think he might be agitating for a coroner's inquiry as well.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Fair enough. I was only a kid when Lindy Chamberlain was tried. I don't know much about that case. I'm not sure how it relates to an historical rape allegation.

Others have posted unequivocally the he is guilty beyond a doubt, I think your question comes from the point of view of, 'how could you not think him guilty?'.

Lindy Chamberlain relates to this because with all that was available in the Chamberlain cases, they still got it wrong and sent her to prison, here we have no physical evidence, all we have is her words and people are prepared to hang him based on nothing more than that or that they're Labor or non-LNP voters.

If more information comes to light, backed up with proof, ie phone records, that shows he has lied about things then yes, he needs to be removed from his role as our AG and turfed out at the next election.

With her dead and there being no physical evidence of anything, he can pretty well say anything he likes. Whether or not he'd be lying or telling the truth, there's no way to test it.

 

[utility]

So much for presumption of innocence with "operator onus", at least in Victoria. Guilty until you nominate someone else.

 

[utility]

On Turnbull's statements suggesting she didn't take her own life and that Porter was in communications, I think he might be agitating for a coroner's inquiry as well.

It is concerning that government agencies (including NSW police) may have been nudged in a particular direction due to the influence of the "old boys network". That's one reason I don't want this swept under the rug. There may be more at play. Given Morrison's position, it doesn't instill much confidence that such activities didn't occur.

The time between her initial contact with NSW police and her death, and the inactivity in between, certainly raises an eye.

 

[utility]

Pretty relevant things for us all to know if we are going to continue to have confidence in our system of government I’d have thought.

This is the damning thing about inaction (no inquiry). It further diminishes confidence and trust in Australian political systems.

 

[Slartibartfast]

We need to know the highest law in the land is a fit a proper person to be in role of such high responsibility.
As it stands there are huge question marks over Porter in the public’s eye , confidence cannot be had in him until an inquiry can demonstrate he is worthy of the role.

 

[BFew]

If Part 2 of Inside the Canberra Bubble ever makes it to air next week,
they might need to move Christian Porter to the Minister for Communications for a while (He can swap with Fletcher temporarily),
during any Coronial Inquiry he might be a witness in,
and Four Corners might end up being reduced down to Three Corners.

 

[daniologist]

Apologies if this has already been posted here, but...

Perhaps the lawyers have reconsidered, and decided that the defamation risk is worth it?



edited coz I botched the copy and paste

 

[BFew]

Crikey broke this repression therapy-like claim at lunchtime today.

SMH added in some of the missing detail last hour, and claims there is written evidence (her notes) related to the alleged rape, starting from the year after the alleged rape.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/03/05/christian-porter-recovered-memories/

Woman drew on counselling before recounting alleged rape

The woman who accused Attorney-General Christian Porter of rape drew on counselling that she said helped to “resurface” a trauma she said she had known about for years.

www.smh.com.au

'March 5, 2021 — 7.36pm
'her account makes clear her belief that she “always” remembered the alleged rape and that the help she sought later added to her understanding.

'“I have always remembered these things,” she wrote of her allegation that Mr Porter raped her at a college at the University of Sydney.
“I had a better understanding of these memories, and only really understood them, once my Sydney based psychologist (who specialises in counselling sexual assault survivors) referred me to The Body Keeps Score: Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma in September 2019.
“I had not previously heard of it, nor had I read it.”'

'The woman also wrote that her account was based on “near contemporaneous” notes of the rape based on information from 1989, 1991 and 1992.
Her written account includes several appendices with what she describes as details from the time of the alleged rape.

 

[Kurve]

Here's the whole 36 minutes, Porter starts to speak at 1:30.

Nobody asked him when he found out the complainant, the woman who ironed his shirt for him when she was only 16yo, died. She'd been gone for 8 or 9 months but he's lost it now, crying.

 

[BFew]

Nobody asked him when he found out the complainant, the woman who ironed his shirt for him when she was only 16yo, died.

Given that 2 of his Cabinet colleagues (Hunt/Fletcher) and one of his ex debating team-mates/rivals (Daniel Mulino Federal Labor Senator) both work in the same building as him, and were at those January 1998 Sydney debating events, you'd have thought that word would have got to Porter from someone about the 24 June 2020 death of one of their fellow debaters, not long after her death.

We can be pretty sure that Porter was not invited to her 3rd July 2020 funeral.

Two cabinet ministers attended event at which woman alleged Christian Porter raped her

Greg Hunt and Paul Fletcher were at the 1988 debating competition attended by the attorney general who has strenuously denied wrongdoing

www.theguardian.com

'Guardian Australia can reveal that the health minister, Greg Hunt, and communications minister, Paul Fletcher, attended the tournament – two of the numerous alumni of the tightknit world of university debating that graduated to high-profile careers in politics and law, including the attorney general who has strenuously denied wrongdoing.'

'Hunt, the minister for health and aged care, attended the tournament as a member of the University of Melbourne team.'

'Guardian Australia understands that Fletcher – a World University Debating Championships grand-finalist in 1986 – attended the tournament in 1988 as an adjudicator. A spokesman for Fletcher declined to comment.'

 

[BFew]

Porter denial fails to end calls for an independent inquiry

As Christian Porter names himself as the cabinet minister accused of rape, and denies the allegation, his office walks back the attorney-general’s claim that the last time he saw his accuser was in January 1988.

www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au

'an anonymous letter, seen by The Saturday Paper, which was sent, along with a 30-page dossier, to the prime minister and several other parliamentarians last week, reportedly by one or more of the woman’s friends.'

The anonymous letter names 13 friends and provides their contact details. Among them are the woman’s six teammates from the Australian schools debating teams in 1987 and 1988, who the letter says all believed her story and “are in possession of additional corroborative evidence” related to the alleged rape. It appears police did not obtain or clarify that evidence before closing the case.

'The prime minister insists that while his staff have read the anonymous letter – which clearly says the accompanying dossier should be read by “the named recipient only” – he has not.'

Should we assume that no-one in the Prime Minister's office read the accompanying dossier, seeing as how the named recipient did not (or so he claims)?

 

[BFew]

“I remember the person as an intelligent, bright, happy person, but I hadn’t had any contact from that person, at all, to the best of my recollection, in the 33 years since that time in January 1988,” he said in answer to a reporter’s question.

However the woman’s unsworn affidavit claims they had dinner in Perth in 1994.

Not just 1994, according to the below.
In Sydney in 1991 too (allegedly).

Porter denial fails to end calls for an independent inquiry

As Christian Porter names himself as the cabinet minister accused of rape, and denies the allegation, his office walks back the attorney-general’s claim that the last time he saw his accuser was in January 1988.

www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au

'The Saturday Paper understands they have evidence suggesting she saw him at least twice more – in Sydney in 1991 and Perth in 1994.'

 

[Kurve]

Apologies if this has already been posted here, but...

Perhaps the lawyers have reconsidered, and decided that the defamation risk is worth it?



edited coz I botched the copy and paste

I'm not sure exactly what information 4Corners had the first time around that was under Porter's threats but the field has changed significantly in the last week.

 

[BFew]

I'm not sure exactly what information 4Corners had the first time around that was under Porter's threats but the field has changed significantly in the last week.

And with the WA State Election this time next week, the ABC will likely be under pressure to defer a part 2 until after next weekend (if it goes ahead at all).

 

[fortunatecrow]

The AFR reports today that the parents (who, the ABC had already reported, didn't want the complaint taken up)

"... have told her friends who are advocating on her behalf that they doubt her claims about being raped as a 16-year-old due to her mental health issues."

Crikey reports:

"...As the media and political pressure has built on Porter there’s one fact that has had no airplay — yet it is something we really do need to know.

The allegation of rape fuelling the case against Porter — which he vigorously denies — has partially been the product of recovered memory theory, a discredited therapy which targets “memories” of events so horrific that the mind has forgotten them in order to cope. How do we know this? The alleged victim said so. It is in her statement — which has had limited circulation — and acts as a preface to the horrific details to be told.

She says she “only really understood” her memories once her Sydney-based psychologist — who specialises in counselling sexual assault survivors — referred her to The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind and body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk in September 2019.

Crikey quotes the New York Times

"Most research psychologists argued that it was much more likely for so-called repressed memories to have been implanted by suggestive questioning from overzealous doctors and therapists than to have been spontaneously recalled. In time, it became clear that innocent people had been wrongfully persecuted. Families, careers and, in some cases, entire lives were destroyed."

Crikey again:

"The psychologist is also based at a Sydney clinic which offers the full gamut of alternative therapies. Another therapist lists her qualifications as a clairvoyant and “certified angel intuitive” as well as being a “spiritual healer” specialising in “subconscious trauma and past pain release”. "

The Age reports today, she was quoted as saying “I have always remembered these things”

but seemed to be using a different frame of reference for remembering:

“My Adelaide-based psychiatrist confirmed that these are ‘somatic memories’ (i.e. lodged in the body rather than the brain, although the mind can access them) in an appointment in late 2019.”

 

[Kurve]

The AFR reports today that the parents (who, the ABC had already reported, didn't want the complaint taken up)

"... have told her friends who are advocating on her behalf that they doubt her claims about being raped as a 16-year-old due to her mental health issues.

There's conflicting information around on this, I've seen the parents quoted as welcoming any inquiry into the circumstances leading up to their daughter's death.

Anyway, as a matter of correct procedure it will be up to the coroner at the state level to determine whether there should be a inquiry. The coroner has already requested further investigations to be undertaken.

 

[fortunatecrow]

There's conflicting information around on this, I've seen the parents quoted as welcoming any inquiry into the circumstances leading up to their daughter's death.

The understatement of the century!

 

[FR0GGY]

Not just 1994, according to the below.
In Sydney in 1991 too (allegedly).

Porter denial fails to end calls for an independent inquiry

As Christian Porter names himself as the cabinet minister accused of rape, and denies the allegation, his office walks back the attorney-general’s claim that the last time he saw his accuser was in January 1988.

www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au

'The Saturday Paper understands they have evidence suggesting she saw him at least twice more – in Sydney in 1991 and Perth in 1994.'

Can someone explain to me why you’d meet someone who you alleged, raped you, twice in subsequent years?

 

[BFew]

they might need to move Christian Porter to the Minister for Communications for a while (He can swap with Fletcher temporarily),
during any Coronial Inquiry he might be a witness in,

Key doubts over Porter accuser’s story

The psychiatric history of the Adelaide woman who accused Attorney-General Christian Porter of rape and two factual errors in her statement has prompted speculation that she may have used repressed memory theory to access her trauma despite clearly stating she had “always remembered these things.”

www.news.com.au

'and communications minister, Paul Fletcher, even attended the tournament although Mr Hunt said he had no recollection of the woman.'
Mr Fletcher, who attended the conference as an adjudicator did know her.'

Ok.
Scrap that idea.

 

[BFew]

Can someone explain to me why you’d meet someone who you alleged, raped you, twice in subsequent years?

Does it say anywhere that where they met was a specific meeting organised between the 2 of them?
Maybe group meets only.
Debating related maybe, with very large groups, or some smaller group get togethers.
We are all just speculating until someone comes out with evidence/more credible details of the nature of the alleged meetings.

 

[FR0GGY]

Does it say anywhere that where they met was a specific meeting organised between the 2 of them?
Maybe group meets only.
Debating related maybe, with very large groups, or some smaller group get togethers.
We are all just speculating until someone comes out with evidence/more credible details of the nature of the alleged meetings.

Yeah fair enough, I thought I saw somewhere that they had dinner.