- Nov 7, 2012
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I thought I'd make a thread to give us a single space to discuss our team's footy generally rather than in a specific game. If no one cares to use it it'll fall away and that's fine but maybe it can be useful rather than having that conversation split up into various previews and autopsies.
So, Saints Footy. What do you reckon?
I'll start:
I have followed the club since 97 and Saints Footy has changed a lot over the years. Right now it's obviously been found wanting because of the lack of accountability, but when it works it's very exciting.
I think most of us would agree that we don't yet see evidence of a strong system that the players adhere to in the manner of Geelong, Sydney, Richmond or West Coast.
I am divided about System based footy. I think I want it, and it's clear clubs who use it set themselves up better for success. Additionally, the most successful era since I've been a fan was with the strongest system, the Lyon era, and I found the style quite boring. It was obviously good winning so much, but I didn't really enjoy watching us play much, even with all our stars because if the type of game Lyon played, and (without wishing to debate this point particularly) I maintain that one reason we didn't win the 09 GF was that we weren't a high scoring team, so we allowed the opposition to stay close and ultimately overtake us.
Generally St Kilda has favoured Star Power over the System, probably because stars are free to any team finishing low enough to be able to draft them, but the best coaches cost big money. We're all about the Riewoldts, Harveys, Locketts, Stevens, Kings, etc and less about the Matthews's, Clarksons, Sheedys, Thompsons and Hardwicks. We love our messiahs on field but we don't often give them a coaching system to match.
We've tried. The biggest star coach was too big for us and thought he'd phone it in from the golf course. We placed a huge amount of faith time and money into our most recent excoach hoping that he'd develop us from the ground up into an unstoppable unit, only to find that he had no actual tactics besides working hard.
But now we have the Hawthorn mastermind Rath and supposed excellent teaching coach Ratten we should be flying. Despite all that's gone wrong for us this year, certain questions are emerging: why are we playing players out of position? Why did we cut our depth so drastically? Where is the selection integrity? Where are the skills they claim to focus on? Most importantly IMO; why have we built a gameplan so heavily dependent on two specific ruckmen, one of which is nearing retirement, without any credible ruck depth?
We have the opposite to the system based approach, which normally works regardless of personnel, where you can plug a debutant into the team to play a role without exposing them. Our performance relies heavily on the form of our best players, which makes us inconsistent, and extremely vulnerable to injuries. Yes even the strongest systems depend on star players performing, but the system is what allows them to perform. They are well drilled, communicative, synchronised with each other - in contrast this year Saints play like a bunch of strangers.
I think Lethlean, Ratten and Rath are probably building towards installing a system but so far it seems chaotic and it appears the players are not capable of following it. One thing I liked about the later Richo years - and there wasn't much - was that it seemed to be pushing towards an even team effort, and not one or two messiahs. In the end though I think it was just that we didn't have any truly elite players.
I want to see us build a strong system that our players know back to front. It will obviously need a plan B and C so we are not too brittle when oppositions figure out the way to stop us, but we need players that can execute it consistently, rather than get by on lucky breaks and pure talent.
Are Ratten & Rath capable of building this? I don't know. Some say yes, and I'm prepared to keep the faith, but my confidence is slowly morphing into hope. What's clear is that we need a new approach that should be drilled mercilessly in the preseason, I would even suggest post-bye. But this preseason needs a greater emphasis on fitness and conditioning and skills too so this means a hell of a lot of extra work for players and coaches. After the confidence sapping season we're enduring, and the number of delistings likely to occur, will the players be motivated to bleed for the club?
For me, a huge problem is on field leadership. I really want to see the young group step up and grab this club by the scruff and take lead, not wait for it to be given. Though he's young, I hope Byrnes will be one of these players. I've talked before about Battle and Coffield being leaders too, I don't know if I'm being unrealistic there but when they mature and find consistency I can see their personalities being perfect. But overall the player culture seems quiet, individualistic, and relaxed. This cannot be allowed to continue.
Well anyway that's my two cents for now:
What's your view on Saints Footy? What do we want from specific players? What kind of coaches or assistants would help take us where we need to go?
So, Saints Footy. What do you reckon?
I'll start:
I have followed the club since 97 and Saints Footy has changed a lot over the years. Right now it's obviously been found wanting because of the lack of accountability, but when it works it's very exciting.
I think most of us would agree that we don't yet see evidence of a strong system that the players adhere to in the manner of Geelong, Sydney, Richmond or West Coast.
I am divided about System based footy. I think I want it, and it's clear clubs who use it set themselves up better for success. Additionally, the most successful era since I've been a fan was with the strongest system, the Lyon era, and I found the style quite boring. It was obviously good winning so much, but I didn't really enjoy watching us play much, even with all our stars because if the type of game Lyon played, and (without wishing to debate this point particularly) I maintain that one reason we didn't win the 09 GF was that we weren't a high scoring team, so we allowed the opposition to stay close and ultimately overtake us.
Generally St Kilda has favoured Star Power over the System, probably because stars are free to any team finishing low enough to be able to draft them, but the best coaches cost big money. We're all about the Riewoldts, Harveys, Locketts, Stevens, Kings, etc and less about the Matthews's, Clarksons, Sheedys, Thompsons and Hardwicks. We love our messiahs on field but we don't often give them a coaching system to match.
We've tried. The biggest star coach was too big for us and thought he'd phone it in from the golf course. We placed a huge amount of faith time and money into our most recent excoach hoping that he'd develop us from the ground up into an unstoppable unit, only to find that he had no actual tactics besides working hard.
But now we have the Hawthorn mastermind Rath and supposed excellent teaching coach Ratten we should be flying. Despite all that's gone wrong for us this year, certain questions are emerging: why are we playing players out of position? Why did we cut our depth so drastically? Where is the selection integrity? Where are the skills they claim to focus on? Most importantly IMO; why have we built a gameplan so heavily dependent on two specific ruckmen, one of which is nearing retirement, without any credible ruck depth?
We have the opposite to the system based approach, which normally works regardless of personnel, where you can plug a debutant into the team to play a role without exposing them. Our performance relies heavily on the form of our best players, which makes us inconsistent, and extremely vulnerable to injuries. Yes even the strongest systems depend on star players performing, but the system is what allows them to perform. They are well drilled, communicative, synchronised with each other - in contrast this year Saints play like a bunch of strangers.
I think Lethlean, Ratten and Rath are probably building towards installing a system but so far it seems chaotic and it appears the players are not capable of following it. One thing I liked about the later Richo years - and there wasn't much - was that it seemed to be pushing towards an even team effort, and not one or two messiahs. In the end though I think it was just that we didn't have any truly elite players.
I want to see us build a strong system that our players know back to front. It will obviously need a plan B and C so we are not too brittle when oppositions figure out the way to stop us, but we need players that can execute it consistently, rather than get by on lucky breaks and pure talent.
Are Ratten & Rath capable of building this? I don't know. Some say yes, and I'm prepared to keep the faith, but my confidence is slowly morphing into hope. What's clear is that we need a new approach that should be drilled mercilessly in the preseason, I would even suggest post-bye. But this preseason needs a greater emphasis on fitness and conditioning and skills too so this means a hell of a lot of extra work for players and coaches. After the confidence sapping season we're enduring, and the number of delistings likely to occur, will the players be motivated to bleed for the club?
For me, a huge problem is on field leadership. I really want to see the young group step up and grab this club by the scruff and take lead, not wait for it to be given. Though he's young, I hope Byrnes will be one of these players. I've talked before about Battle and Coffield being leaders too, I don't know if I'm being unrealistic there but when they mature and find consistency I can see their personalities being perfect. But overall the player culture seems quiet, individualistic, and relaxed. This cannot be allowed to continue.
Well anyway that's my two cents for now:
What's your view on Saints Footy? What do we want from specific players? What kind of coaches or assistants would help take us where we need to go?
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