Collingwood and Richmond - who has the greater supporter base

[Zevon]

Just a reminder: Terms like “Minnowmond”, “Shrinkingwood”, “Dwindlewood” and the like belong on the bay, not the main board. Same goes for referring to either team as a minnow, when clearly neither fits that description.

If you see stuff like this, don’t respond with more of it. Click ‘report’ so we can deal with it.

 

[Fadge]

Whilst I won’t suggest Collingwood almost certainly isn’t the biggest Club, how on earth can you and others keep using crowd stats for home and away aggregates to justify supremacy? Only Collingwood and Richmond play at an unconstrained stadium! How is it even possible for a Carlton or Essendon to participate in such a debate if it plays its home games at a 45,000 seater? I will argue that if Essendon had as much on field success as Collingwood the last 20 years, mirroring it’s ladder finishes annually over this period, it’s highly likely they would’ve finished the top aggregate club in the competition on several occasions. There’s almost no doubt about that. Look at 2017 as an obvious case in point..

This aggregate H&A attendance debate is misleading, has significant limitations rendering it a pointless exercise. It’s a debate that really can only have 2 of the 18 clubs applicable as these are the only big 2 clubs playing at unconstrained stadiums.

Finally, if West Coast played its home games at the MCG, a 100,000 seater, it’s home crowd aggregate would certainly be the biggest in the AFL over the last 20 years. That changes the whole attendance narrative.

Otherwise, carry on with the shallow endless pointless debate.

So give us some stats to support your comments.

How many games do Carlton and Essendon play at Marvel stadium that would attract larger crowds if played elsewhere?

I don't recall any of Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton and Richmond playing one another at anywhere else than the MCG in recent times.

Essendon's highest crowd at the Docklands this year was 33677 against the Bulldogs. They had multiple crowds in the 40,000's in 2019, but would any of these games have reasonably attracted more than the Docklands' capacity if they were played at the MCG - St. Kilda, North, Hawthorn (maybe), Adelaide, Port?

Carlton are in a similar position to Essendon, where they've had less than a handful of games with crowds greater than 40,000 over 2019 and 2022, with a highest crowd of 44769 this year.

It does seem that any matches where the predicted crowd is likely to exceed the Docklands capacity, these matches are scheduled at the MCG.

 

[dave10]

So give us some stats to support your comments.

How many games do Carlton and Essendon play at Marvel stadium that would attract larger crowds if played elsewhere?

I don't recall any of Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton and Richmond playing one another at anywhere else than the MCG in recent times.

Essendon's highest crowd at the Docklands this year was 33677 against the Bulldogs. They had multiple crowds in the 40,000's in 2019, but would any of these games have reasonably attracted more than the Docklands' capacity if they were played at the MCG - St. Kilda, North, Hawthorn (maybe), Adelaide, Port?

Carlton are in a similar position to Essendon, where they've had less than a handful of games with crowds greater than 40,000 over 2019 and 2022, with a highest crowd of 44769 this year.

It does seem that any matches where the predicted crowd is likely to exceed the Docklands capacity, these matches are scheduled at the MCG.

Forget 2022, a terrible year for Essendon and clearly not an example of a year Essendon would’ve been anywhere near the top.

In many other years since 2000 Essendon have had numerous crowds at Docklands that sold out. Big fixtures against Geelong, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Melbourne, clashes that drew 40-48,000 likely would’ve drawn 60,000+ at the MCG. Some of the Geelong / Hawthorn clashes thst were top 8 blockbusters on the Friday night probable were ~70,000 type fixtures based on historical Essendon MCG fixtures in stringer years against these clubs.. There were several games they played against the Swans, Lions and Eagles in the Sheedy era that sold out that would’ve likely drawn another 5-15,000 at the MCG. Certainly the Swans and Lions games.

Without going into year by year analysis, MCG fixtures draw better than equivalent Marvel fixtures.. That’s because MCC and AFL members largely won’t go to Marvel, denying these fixtures all the neutrals that currently fill these reserves at the MCG. And Marvel doesn’t drag in the casual walk up type attendees the G does because of complexities around booking seats and ticketing cost.. Essendon is ranked 3rd/2nd in these member reserves.

A couple of obvious examples illustrate the limitation of this debate in recent times.. This year Essendon drew 30,000 in round 2 (Lions) and due to a shocking year between 20-30,000 in most other instances at this venue. That’s the Msrvel watermark for Essendon in 2022. Yet 43,000+ turned up late in the year to watch Essendon play Sydney, a crowd that based on other Marvel crowds in 2022 suggest only 33-35,000 at Marvel that week. Do the MCG dragged in an additional 10,000 fans this week alone.

Further, a competitive Essendon (10th) drew 60,100 against the Swans (9th) in 2019 st the MCG in a fixture that could only have drawn ~43-45,000 at Marvel. That’s another 15,000 fans to that fixture…

There’s countless other examples including many blockbuster Victorian derbies that make the overall debate flawed.

 

[Fadge]

Forget 2022, a terrible year for Essendon and clearly not an example of a year Essendon would’ve been anywhere near the top.

In many other years since 2000 Essendon have had numerous crowds at Docklands that sold out. Big fixtures against Geelong, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Melbourne, clashes that drew 40-48,000 likely would’ve drawn 60,000+ at the MCG. Some of the Geelong / Hawthorn clashes thst were top 8 blockbusters on the Friday night probable were ~70,000 type fixtures based on historical Essendon MCG fixtures in stringer years against these clubs.. There were several games they played against the Swans, Lions and Eagles in the Sheedy era that sold out that would’ve likely drawn another 5-15,000 at the MCG. Certainly the Swans and Lions games.

Without going into year by year analysis, MCG fixtures draw better than equivalent Marvel fixtures.. That’s because MCC and AFL members largely won’t go to Marvel, denying these fixtures all the neutrals that currently fill these reserves at the MCG. And Marvel doesn’t drag in the casual walk up type attendees the G does because of complexities around booking seats and ticketing cost.. Essendon is ranked 3rd/2nd in these member reserves.

A couple of obvious examples illustrate the limitation of this debate in recent times.. This year Essendon drew 30,000 in round 2 (Lions) and due to a shocking year between 20-30,000 in most other instances at this venue. That’s the Msrvel watermark for Essendon in 2022. Yet 43,000+ turned up late in the year to watch Essendon play Sydney, a crowd that based on other Marvel crowds in 2022 suggest only 33-35,000 at Marvel that week. Do the MCG dragged in an additional 10,000 fans this week alone.

Further, a competitive Essendon (10th) drew 60,100 against the Swans (9th) in 2019 st the MCG in a fixture that could only have drawn ~43-45,000 at Marvel. That’s another 15,000 fans to that fixture…

There’s countless other examples including many blockbuster Victorian derbies that make the overall debate flawed.

There might be some substance to this, but it is difficult to accurately quantify.

It does further support the argument Essendon are at least a clear number 2 to Collingwood, comfortably ahead of Carlton and Richmond.

 

[blaisee]

Forget 2022, a terrible year for Essendon and clearly not an example of a year Essendon would’ve been anywhere near the top.

In many other years since 2000 Essendon have had numerous crowds at Docklands that sold out. Big fixtures against Geelong, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Melbourne, clashes that drew 40-48,000 likely would’ve drawn 60,000+ at the MCG. Some of the Geelong / Hawthorn clashes thst were top 8 blockbusters on the Friday night probable were ~70,000 type fixtures based on historical Essendon MCG fixtures in stringer years against these clubs.. There were several games they played against the Swans, Lions and Eagles in the Sheedy era that sold out that would’ve likely drawn another 5-15,000 at the MCG. Certainly the Swans and Lions games.

Without going into year by year analysis, MCG fixtures draw better than equivalent Marvel fixtures.. That’s because MCC and AFL members largely won’t go to Marvel, denying these fixtures all the neutrals that currently fill these reserves at the MCG. And Marvel doesn’t drag in the casual walk up type attendees the G does because of complexities around booking seats and ticketing cost.. Essendon is ranked 3rd/2nd in these member reserves.

A couple of obvious examples illustrate the limitation of this debate in recent times.. This year Essendon drew 30,000 in round 2 (Lions) and due to a shocking year between 20-30,000 in most other instances at this venue. That’s the Msrvel watermark for Essendon in 2022. Yet 43,000+ turned up late in the year to watch Essendon play Sydney, a crowd that based on other Marvel crowds in 2022 suggest only 33-35,000 at Marvel that week. Do the MCG dragged in an additional 10,000 fans this week alone.

Further, a competitive Essendon (10th) drew 60,100 against the Swans (9th) in 2019 st the MCG in a fixture that could only have drawn ~43-45,000 at Marvel. That’s another 15,000 fans to that fixture…

There’s countless other examples including many blockbuster Victorian derbies that make the overall debate flawed.

This is fair

It is difficult to compare home and away numbers for these reasons, and memberships are difficult, west coast has a waiting list, because its ground is small, adelaide count people on mailing lists lol.

But they all provide bits of evidence, to help an argument.

That's why finals crowds against similar opponents are important, some may say its the best bit of evidence, as its the same ground, high stakes, and generally if you really want to go and are motivated to pay what it costs, you will get a ticket .

Then of course we need to dilute the Richmond crowd for finals by a factor to ensure the pies fans don't lose their minds when facts hit them square in the face, then things like

finals fatigue, chronic fatigue, ticketing systems, Nostradamus impacts, and general one eyed delusion come into the equation, and reading this thread will makes it very easy to identify the usual culprits. Got to hand it to them, they are if nothing else resilient, just a shame there arem't enough of them to get bigger crowds than Richmond in finals. It is what it is.

I will say this though, if you did a random poll of which club Australians support it would probably be Sydney, because they have the biggest population and only 2 teams to choose from, that however doesn't mean they have more financially invested fans, fans that would pay for a membership, or pay for a ticket to go to a game, these are causal fans, like most pies fans, thats why they will never be able to compete with Richmond fans in crowds or memberships, Richmond fans are more passionate, more invested as a whole, well to be more specific, there more of these types of Richmond fans than Pies fans.

 

[dave10]

There might be some substance to this, but it is difficult to accurately quantify.

It does further support the argument Essendon are at least a clear number 2 to Collingwood, comfortably ahead of Carlton and Richmond.

Certainly ahead in my view.

Essendon’s largely irrelevant 18 years means many on here forget the crowd pulling capacity of a successful Essendon. That’s understandable, it’s been 18 years since it won a final. It’s not hard to imaging what Collingwood’s crowds would’ve been with a similar period of prolonged failure (and scandal). Collingwood hasn’t experienced anything like what Essendon has endured as a club the last 20 years, certainly the last 10 years. Only Richmond, and Carlton to a degree can understand the torment of on and off field failure and scandal.

In the era before 3 game memberships, ‘kids free Sundays’ and restricted MCC members access that all served to inflate crowds to new levels the last decade, Essendon was regularly drawing 60-80,000 home crowds at the MCG against non big 4 clubs prior to moving to Docklands throughout the period 1995-1999.

Because Essendon hadn’t been an onfield power basically since going to Docklands, and due to it playing non big 4 teams mostly at Marvel, we tend to forget about Essendon and Carlton’s drawing power. Every now and then, like that Swans fixture in 2019 we get a reminder of what we can expect from a winning Essendon. And thankfully it’s current Board know this and have the intention to amend its playing arrangements at the conclusion of its current venue contract.

 

[Fadge]

This is fair

It is difficult to compare home and away numbers for these reasons, and memberships are difficult, west coast has a waiting list, because its ground is small, adelaide count people on mailing lists lol.

But they all provide bits of evidence, to help an argument.

That's why finals crowds against similar opponents are important, some may say its the best bit of evidence, as its the same ground, high stakes, and generally if you really want to go and are motivated to pay what it costs, you will get a ticket .

Then of course we need to dilute the Richmond crowd for finals by a factor to ensure the pies fans don't lose their minds when facts hit them square in the face, then things like

finals fatigue, chronic fatigue, ticketing systems, Nostradamus impacts, and general one eyed delusion come into the equation, and reading this thread will makes it very easy to identify the usual culprits. Got to hand it to them, they are if nothing else resilient, just a shame there arem't enough of them to get bigger crowds than Richmond in finals. It is what it is.

I will say this though, if you did a random poll of which club Australians support it would probably be Sydney, because they have the biggest population and only 2 teams to choose from, that however doesn't mean they have more financially invested fans, fans that would pay for a membership, or pay for a ticket to go to a game, these are causal fans, like most pies fans, thats why they will never be able to compete with Richmond fans in crowds or memberships, Richmond fans are more passionate, more invested as a whole, well to be more specific, there more of these types of Richmond fans than Pies fans.

One has to wonder if you truly believe what you write or, like Meteoric Rise, you are just taking the mickey.

Unfortunately, I sense it is the former.

 

[Fadge]

Certainly ahead in my view.

Essendon’s largely irrelevant 18 years means many on here forget the crowd pulling capacity of a successful Essendon. That’s understandable, it’s been 18 years since it won a final. It’s not hard to imaging what Collingwood’s crowds would’ve been with a similar period of prolonged failure (and scandal). Collingwood hasn’t experienced anything like what Essendon has endured as a club the last 20 years, certainly the last 10 years. Only Richmond, and Carlton to a degree can understand the torment of on and off field failure and scandal.

In the era before 3 game memberships, ‘kids free Sundays’ and restricted MCC members access that all served to inflate crowds to new levels the last decade, Essendon was regularly drawing 60-80,000 home crowds at the MCG against non big 4 clubs prior to moving to Docklands throughout the period 1995-1999.

Because Essendon hadn’t been an onfield power basically since going to Docklands, and due to it playing non big 4 teams mostly at Marvel, we tend to forget about Essendon and Carlton’s drawing power. Every now and then, like that Swans fixture in 2019 we get a reminder of what we can expect from a winning Essendon. And thankfully it’s current Board know this and have the intention to amend its playing arrangements at the conclusion of its current venue contract.

Yep, surely the best result for all concerned is to have as many spectators able to attend games of footy as possible.

It is a really good point about MCC and AFL Members. Being an MCC member myself, Collingwood H&A games v. Interstate teams are great to attend as it is nice to occasionally attend games where you know there won't be 80K or 90K in attendance (and you've already paid for the privilege of attending by virtue of your membership), but I wouldn't be going out of my way to spend additional money to buy a ticket to see the same game at Marvel.

 

[blaisee]

One has to wonder if you truly believe what you write or, like Meteoric Rise, you are just taking the mickey.

Unfortunately, I sense it is the former.

Its interesting you should put it in that way.

Because I actually have had the same thought about you and your pose.

The difference is I believe you and your buddies are just trolling, no one could possible be that misinformed and just plain wrong consistently.

Anyway kudos for your passion, like I said, its just a shame there are not enough of you to really make a difference.

 

[Fadge]

Its interesting you should put it in that way.

Because I actually have had the same thought about you and your pose.

The difference is I believe you and your buddies are just trolling, no one could possible be that misinformed and just plain wrong consistently.

Anyway kudos for your passion, like I said, its just a shame there are not enough of you to really make a difference.

Nice 'Am not, you are' response. I haven't used that one since I was 5 years old.

The last count from neutrals was:
Collingwood 62
Richmond 4

But it's Collingwood supporters that are trolling, misinformed and just plain consistently wrong?

Wowee.

 

[doppleganger]

Certainly ahead in my view.

Essendon’s largely irrelevant 18 years means many on here forget the crowd pulling capacity of a successful Essendon. That’s understandable, it’s been 18 years since it won a final. It’s not hard to imaging what Collingwood’s crowds would’ve been with a similar period of prolonged failure (and scandal). Collingwood hasn’t experienced anything like what Essendon has endured as a club the last 20 years, certainly the last 10 years. Only Richmond, and Carlton to a degree can understand the torment of on and off field failure and scandal.

In the era before 3 game memberships, ‘kids free Sundays’ and restricted MCC members access that all served to inflate crowds to new levels the last decade, Essendon was regularly drawing 60-80,000 home crowds at the MCG against non big 4 clubs prior to moving to Docklands throughout the period 1995-1999.

Because Essendon hadn’t been an onfield power basically since going to Docklands, and due to it playing non big 4 teams mostly at Marvel, we tend to forget about Essendon and Carlton’s drawing power. Every now and then, like that Swans fixture in 2019 we get a reminder of what we can expect from a winning Essendon. And thankfully it’s current Board know this and have the intention to amend its playing arrangements at the conclusion of its current venue contract.

Agree with all that.

Late 90s, Essendon moving early to the G and having 16+ games per year there whilst in a period of success, the Dons had a bubble where they had bigger crowds than the Pies.

After close to 20 years without a finals win, if Essendon finally get their s**t together they will have a Richmond 2017 style season in terms of bums on seats.

Pies #1 and Dons #2

 

[blaisee]

Nice 'Am not, you are' response. I haven't used that one since I was 5 years old.

The last count from neutrals was:
Collingwood 62
Richmond 4

But it's Collingwood supporters that are trolling, misinformed and just plain consistently wrong?

Wowee.

?

 

[gopies1981]

Agree with all that.

Late 90s, Essendon moving early to the G and having 16+ games per year there whilst in a period of success, the Dons had a bubble where they had bigger crowds than the Pies.

After close to 20 years without a finals win, if Essendon finally get their s**t together they will have a Richmond 2017 style season in terms of bums on seats.

Pies #1 and Dons #2

Agree and when Carlton get there act together they will be no.3 abs Richmond will go back to no.4 but they are already 4th in reality

 

[doppleganger]

Agree and when Carlton get there act together they will be no.3 abs Richmond will go back to no.4 but they are already 4th in reality

Tiger fans will always have their late 2010s little bubble...

Will be even sadder when we are in the 2030s and Tiger fans are still talking about a current unbroken run of 90k finals crowds from the 2010s

 

[AstuteTiger]

Tiger fans will always have their late 2010s little bubble...

Will be even sadder when we are in the 2030s and Tiger fans are still talking about a current unbroken run of 90k finals crowds from the 2010s

Don't worry dopple you'll be back to these days sooner than you think 20K Friday night footy!
At least we have a 9 X 90K unbroken finals run, pies on a 2 X 90K bender LOL

 

[doppleganger]

Don't worry dopple you'll be back to these days sooner than you think 20K Friday night footy!
At least we have a 9 X 90K unbroken finals run, pies on a 2 X 90K bender LOL

I see you love your irrelevant selective historical stats.

Be good if you could do a tally of sub 20k crowds at the G in AFL era.

 

[AstuteTiger]

I see you love your irrelevant selective historical stats.

Be good if you could do a tally of sub 20k crowds at the G in AFL era.

Bahaha as irrelevant as your rinse and repeat 2017 throw-away lines, or 35 years likely GF appearance as to why we topped 95K V GWS

There's a lot of chit-chatter on Twitter, discussing the semi-final crowd and pies supporters nowhere to be seen only 6 years ago on Friday night footy v Freo.

 

[doppleganger]

There's a lot of chit-chatter on Twitter, discussing the semi-final crowd and pies supporters nowhere to be seen only 6 years ago on the big stage of Friday night footy

6 years ago is ancient history.

In 2022 - The Tigers got just 23k to a home Friday night game v Freo and just 21k against Port.

Tigers late 2010s bubble well and truly over, but you did get a couple of big crowds in 2017-18.

 

[Cringle]

I’ve always felt that Collingwood had the bigger dick and Richmond’s recent run of success on the field hasn’t really changed that opinion.

But the Tigers still have a pretty big dick that most clubs would love to have.

Spare a thought for the micro dick minnow Melbourne clubs.

 

[Klem]

If I had the choice of sitting next to or near either supporter would pick a Collingwood supporter in a heart beat.

 

[AstuteTiger]

6 years ago is ancient history.

In 2022 - The Tigers got just 23k to a home Friday night game v Freo and just 21k against Port.

Tigers late 2010s bubble well and truly over, but you did get a couple of big crowds in 2017-18.

No not ancient history at all. Lol, you crack me dopple you mean 22K on a Thurs night v port? with work and school the next day, yeah of course you did
Say what? V freo at marvel that's not like for like "Friday at the G" as Dave had explained regarding the G to Marvel attendances.
Comparison at marvel is the 25K Pies V west coast in RD 4, and as we know eagles have more support than freo but marvel isn't in this discussion of the Friday night crowd at the G V Freo and then the bandwagon effect in the semi-final. The pies membership dept did a great job signing them all up after the 11-game winning run.

Yeah just a couple of big crowds

2013 - 81K V Blues, 82K V Pies, 84K+ V Bombers
2015 - 83.5K V Blues, 84K V Bombers and 90K+ V North in the EF
2017 - 86K V Dees, 86K V Bombers, 70K V Saints and Prelim V GWS 95K
2018 - 90K+ V Blues, 71K V Hawks, 77 V Dees, 81K V Bombers, 88K V Pies
2019 - 85K V Blues, 81K V Bombers, 79K V Pies, 77K V Lions

 

[doppleganger]

No no not ancient history at all. Lol, crack me dopple you mean 22K on a Thurs night v port? with work and school the next day, yeah of course you did
Say what? V freo at marvel that's not like for like "Friday at the G" as Dave had explained regarding the G to Marvel attendances.

Excuses

Two home crowds of low 20k in 2022, fans clearly arent engaged anymore if not rocking up to games.

Yeah just a couple of big crowds

2013 - 81K V Blues, 82K V Pies, 84K+ V Bombers
2015 - 83.5K V Blues, 84K V Bombers and 90K+ V North in the EF
2017 - 86K V Dees, 86K V Bombers, 70K V Saints and Prelim V GWS 95K
2018 - 90K+ V Blues, 71K V Hawks, 77 V Dees, 81K V Bombers, 88K V Pies
2019 - 85K V Blues, 81K V Bombers, 79K V Pies, 77K V Lions

LoL, you want to start listing 70k+ crowds from the 2010s. Do a side by side comparison, I will wait.

I did notice you stopped and didnt include anything from the 2020s??

Tigers a lil bubble, has popped.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

If I had the choice of sitting next to or near either supporter would pick a Collingwood supporter in a heart beat.

So would I because I love hanging sh!t on them.

 

[gopies1981]

No not ancient history at all. Lol, you crack me dopple you mean 22K on a Thurs night v port? with work and school the next day, yeah of course you did
Say what? V freo at marvel that's not like for like "Friday at the G" as Dave had explained regarding the G to Marvel attendances.
Comparison at marvel is the 25K Pies V west coast in RD 4, and as we know eagles have more support than freo but marvel isn't in this discussion of the Friday night crowd at the G V Freo and then the bandwagon effect in the semi-final. The pies membership dept did a great job signing them all up after the 11-game winning run.

Yeah just a couple of big crowds

2013 - 81K V Blues, 82K V Pies, 84K+ V Bombers
2015 - 83.5K V Blues, 84K V Bombers and 90K+ V North in the EF
2017 - 86K V Dees, 86K V Bombers, 70K V Saints and Prelim V GWS 95K
2018 - 90K+ V Blues, 71K V Hawks, 77 V Dees, 81K V Bombers, 88K V Pies
2019 - 85K V Blues, 81K V Bombers, 79K V Pies, 77K V Lions

I’m an pretty sure there were not many west coast supporters at the pies game as WA was in lockdown at the time. Richmond only drawing 21k v port at the mcg is what small clubs get!! Especially a finals side is Richmond

 

[gopies1981]

The Collingwood obsession with Richmond supporters is hilarious

 

[Fadge]

Bahaha as irrelevant as your rinse and repeat 2017 throw-away lines, or 35 years likely GF appearance as to why we topped 95K V GWS

There's a lot of chit-chatter on Twitter, discussing the semi-final crowd and pies supporters nowhere to be seen only 6 years ago on Friday night footy v Freo.

View attachment 1509021

Huh, bandwagoner supporters, when in the last 30 full seasons of footy Collingwood have only ever finished outside of the top 2 teams for attendances during the home and away season on one solitary occasion, and in that year we finished 3rd, 2000 attendees fewer than the top ranked team?

Oh my.

Years at #1 since 1990:
Collingwood: 22
Richmond: 3

Years outside the top 2 since 1990:
Collingwood: 1
Richmond: 25