NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[sr36]

^ this perception I have is based on my observation of its past behaviours and handling of various crises. It’s linked to the shameless soul-selling the AFL has engaged in over the past decade(s) with sponsors, media rights deals and various other engagements.

It’s also covered in The Boys Club. Very few people I know respect and/or trust the AFL at this point.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just questioning if the reflex distrust that so many seem to respond with is actually justified.

 

[Kram]

There was no right way to play the Goode's booing. A statement condemning the booing was always going to increase the booing, which is what occurred when they finally went down that path. I don't know if you can criticise them for following the standard recommended path of not adding fuel to the fire.

I agree, but as far as the Goodes sage went it was pretty laughable how Eddie got out of this pretty much scot free.

"The situation would be inflamed five days later, when McGuire stated on radio, that Goodes would be a good person to advertise a theatre run of King Kong."

 

[Proper Gander]

I suppose good journalism are just stories you personally like.

I’ve always thought that Woodward and Bernstein were total campaigners. US President wasn’t afforded due process. Bloody travesty IMO

 

[rado]

Once again…can you point to posts where you’ve made the same point about tabloid media that doesn’t involve mistreatment of Indigenous people?

Didn’t think so…

What on earth are you on about ……. I think you and views similar represent the I’ll informed. The point you seem to not understand is that due process must be followed for everyone, indigenous and non-indigenous.
If you believe trial by media is the way to go ……. God help us all!!

 

[Proper Gander]

I think this perspective you quoted represents a longer-term mounting distrust of an organisation that almost unapologetically puts money ahead of everything else.

I can’t clearly see a path where an AFL-led investigation of this nature (and which involves an accused party who is now entrenched at a high level within the AFL itself) is conducted honestly, transparently and with integrity.

I can more clearly see a situation where outcomes can be pre-ordained for the benefit of egos and profitability though.

Now we wait

 

[rado]

What are your qualifications that allow you to evaluate quality journalism? Do you have a degree in journalism? Do you have decades in the industry?

I’m tipping that you’re just an occasional talkback complainer/caller but I’m open to being proven wrong

Your response suggests you believe everything you read ……. Not me!!

 

[sr36]

Semantics: the last resort of grubs who know they’re wrong…

Misrepresentation: the last resort of grubs who know they're wrong ...

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

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Being as generous as we could be to Newbold, let’s assume he knew nothing. But then what culture did he create where the ‘media girl’ would ask about how to respond to some emails but didn’t think a desperate pregnant partner of a current player was worth raising a question about? Cleary there were some things the president didn’t want to know about and the ‘media girl’ knew this.

Also, 100% agree with the poster who called out using the term ‘media girl’ is completely acceptable, particular from a commissioner who is overseeing the expansion of AFLW.

If he was a corporate leader he would be sacked for these two reason alone.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Dude, he’s not an English teacher. It’s a yarning circle… informal opportunity for indigenous players and their families to tell their truths. some of those truths so horrendous he advised Hawthorn to refer it directly to the AFL Integrity unit. Who cares if he’s structured the report to Harvard standards ffs. He’s got information from these people, he’s made recommendations. Stop nit picking FFS. Look at the content not the format.

Great post. It seems they we don’t just have the tone police for ‘angry aboriginals’ but also the font police.

Maybe we should try listening to the substance of what is being communicated to us, rather than dictating how we must be communicated to?

 

[RightYouAreThen]

I’ve always thought that Woodward and Bernstein were total campaigners. US President wasn’t afforded due process. Bloody travesty IMO

Best post ever

 

[South of the Yarra]

Football clubs have taken on the roles of parental figures, counsellors, buisness managers and spend a great deal of their time trying to mentor young players and help them deal with issues they are facing that could reduce their ability to be a success in the AFL.
We see it with clubs trying to help draftees getting over homesickness, helping them finish off education or training for a life outside the AFL, and basically acting as nannies to stop them getting themselves in trouble off the field.
Clubs were told they had a duty to the players welfare to do this. They had to teach them how to deal with women and issues of respect. They should shadow them to make sure they didn't stay out late at night. Make sure they wernt getting drunk and ending up in the news. They should try and make sure that negative influences didn't get a hold.
If a club was going to take action against a player for an indiscretion then their was an obligation on them to educate the player about those issues to prevent them doing it in the first place.

Wether some people here want to admit it or not, the fact remains that "some" indigenous kids come in to the system with a different set of issues than the Anglo kids do.
Clubland spends a huge amount of energy and resources to cater to those needs. In some cases the coaching staff become sudo parents. They start acting as parents.
They start giving advice to those lads like a parent would.
The player was obviously in some sort of toxic relationship that was effecting his mental state and his ability to play football. They gave advice that a parent most likely would. Get out of the relationship. It's toxic.
To think that the coaches did what they are said to of done because the lad was indigenous and they wanted to harm him is pathetic. You suck as a human if you think that. Give yourself an uppercut.
Now was the advice the right advice? I don't know. The player didn't have to take it. I told my mate to ditch his psycho GF, he hasn't. So what?

The reality of this is such. Clubs will be less willing to draft indigenous lads if they think their life outside of football isn't traditional and healthy.
Most organisations are risk adverse and will subconsciously err to less risk.
They will be less likely to try and help and guide them for fear of being accused of stuff like this. You will have a two tiered system where Anglo kids get more in depth interactions and the indigenous kids get less.
If you think this won't be the case, real world evidence says it will be.
Recent studies have shown that men are less likely to apply CPR to women who are need of life saving intervention because they may be accused of something after the event.
Men are less likely to talk to kids, or infact become teachers at schools, or help run after school activities with children because they don't want to put themselves in a situation of getting accused of something.
The result is that most schools can't find parents to help with schools sport etc and those that do are mothers.
I have a kid at school. I went to my kids swimming events and they were young enough to where they took way too much time trying to dress themselves. There were three dads, and we went in and got our boys dressed and then left the changerooms. The other kids were taking their time and the female teacher asked if we could go in and help the other boys get dressed. We all looked at each other and none of us offered our help. Teacher then said, ok, I understand and walked off.
The same thing will happen here.
You want it, you got it.

Please enlighten us on ‘the different set of issues’ Aboriginal kids have over Anglo kids?

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just questioning if the reflex distrust that so many seem to respond with is actually justified.

The Boys Club is a great (though depressing) read.

 

[ezza77]

Absolutely disgusting, and only allegations at this stage, but if proven correct, oh boy, Clarkson's tenure at North Melbourne will be a very short one!!

Clarkson seems like the deadbeat dictator that'd do something like this to be honest!!! Absolutely farkin disgraceful if true!!!

 

[Ginnieboy]

Coercive control by clubs (in regards to living arrangements) has been going on for years. The players don't live together because they're all "best mates" its because the club insist on it. If the club are worried enough they live with staff or coaches. Sometimes senior players will billet a kid moving.

* me people don't honestly believe that the clubs give young adults the freedom to make their own decisions do they? It hasn't been like that for 25+ years ffs.

Look at country kids coming into the game, no real life experience especially in the big smoke, makes sense to have them share a house with a few teammates/coach until they find their feet and it isn’t just the club pushing it, parents do as well.

 

[Ginnieboy]

No one said the actual act of having a player live with host families was racist, it’s more with everything else we know and bully a player to do it.

Would it be unethical when interviewing a potential draftee if he would agree to the clubs living arrangements? Say you’re thinking about drafting a 17 year old from Mildura, he hasn’t had a great upbringing - been in trouble a few times etc and he says no? Right or wrong that kid probably doesn’t get drafted.

 

[Sheeza69]

To this day I still think Ed’s comments (although mind bogglingly stupid) were innocent, I don’t think he meant it racially at all, should he have known better? Absolutely but IMO he was referring to Goodes as a larger than life figure, Ed has been known to speak before he thinks on occasion.

Being compared to a wild animal is every man's hope's & dreams... Jimmy Krakouer always enjoyed his time playing against Collingwood in particular at Victoria Park.. Same could be said re Winmar & McAdam..
Collingwood were the pioneers of bringing indigenous players into the VFL/AFL all the way back in 2007.. Leon Davis was your first & I can barely name a handful that have played at Collingwood..
Whilst Essendon & St.Kilda have been recruiting indigenous players since the 70/80's..
It's all in the CULTURE & history of indigenous players at that club..
Hawthorn have really only drafted indigenous players since mid 2000's..
Mark Williams from memory was one of the first..
Kennett's attitude filters down to the Coaches... McGuire attitude filtered across to Bucks..

Is it racism...?
That's an individual's perception as it varies from one person to the next...
I have a feeling what we might learn is that Clarko, Fagan & Burt's argument was that "we were taken out of context", misinterpreted etc.. Though some of the allegations are specific, damning & extremely serious, not to say the least.
9.5 times out of ten these "Conspiracy theories" eventually become fact..ie Catholic Church/Priests Pedophilia

 

[mcnulty]

As expected, the Indigenous Players and their partners whose allegations of racially motivated mistreatment are central to the Hawthorn (Egan) Report are willing to have their stories probed as part of an Independent investigation BUT ONLY if the investigation is free from AFL influence.

If that does not tell you that the AFL Culture, driven by McLachlan and AFL House, is broken in the eyes of Indigenous Australians nothing will.

Those who made the damning allegations want all parties, including coaches Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan, to be able to give their versions in a forum that is not subject to the AFL’s rules. Sources said there was a motivation to bring about change in how Indigenous players and people were handled.

Legal figures in Victoria said an inquiry could even be commissioned by the state government under the Inquiries Act. The Australian Human Rights Commission have powers to investigate whether there has been a breach of anti-discrimination laws.

This is rapidly spiralling out of the control of McLachlan's empire. As it should if we are serious of serious change.

Former players at the centre of Hawthorn investigation will talk - to an AFL-free hearing

The First Nations players and partners who have made allegations of mistreatment by Hawthorn senior officials want to tell their stories in an independent hearing, free of AFL influence.

www.theage.com.au

Good. Fine. That would be a court of law. Get everyone under cross examination and let the cards (and reputations) fall as they may.

 

[jenny61_99]

Look at country kids coming into the game, no real life experience especially in the big smoke, makes sense to have them share a house with a few teammates/coach until they find their feet and it isn’t just the club pushing it, parents do as well.

I remember Adelaide used to find host families for new interstate recruits where theyd spend their first year. After that they could move in with teammates. This was definitely done in conjunction with the players family.

 

[bc27]

Questioning the other persons experience and interpretation of events has been one of the columns of success for racism.

 

[tassietime]

The naivety of people on this forum who already believe Clarkson, Fagan etc are ‘cooked’ is instructive. In effect, you have a draft submission from one party in a dispute. Sounds convincing? They almost always do. Until you read the counter briefs. Statements from multiple witnesses? It only takes one or two of these claims to be proven false (eg Chris Fagan not being at meeting as claimed) for these statements to unravel. Of course, feel free to make bold predictions in this forum of zero consequence. But those standing in the front row of the lynch mob should at least start preparing for the day when much egg may need to be removed from their incredulous faces.

 

[beatnik]

The naivety of people on this forum who already believe Clarkson, Fagan etc are ‘cooked’ is instructive. In effect, you have a draft submission from one party in a dispute. Sounds convincing? They almost always do. Until you read the counter briefs. Statements from multiple witnesses? It only takes one or two of these claims to be proven false (eg Chris Fagan not being at meeting as claimed) for these statements to unravel. Of course, feel free to make bold predictions in this forum of zero consequence. But those standing in the front row of the lynch mob should at least start preparing for the day when much egg may need to be removed from their incredulous faces.

A Collingwood fan defending racist behaviour and talking about lynch mobs? #shocked

 

[Ginnieboy]

The naivety of people on this forum who already believe Clarkson, Fagan etc are ‘cooked’ is instructive. In effect, you have a draft submission from one party in a dispute. Sounds convincing? They almost always do. Until you read the counter briefs. Statements from multiple witnesses? It only takes one or two of these claims to be proven false (eg Chris Fagan not being at meeting as claimed) for these statements to unravel. Of course, feel free to make bold predictions in this forum of zero consequence. But those standing in the front row of the lynch mob should at least start preparing for the day when much egg may need to be removed from their incredulous faces.

After reading the email I don’t see a way out, what would justify 3 grown men doing that? And the response to the email was gut wrenching.

 

[Corkintheocean]

The naivety of people on this forum who already believe Clarkson, Fagan etc are ‘cooked’ is instructive. In effect, you have a draft submission from one party in a dispute. Sounds convincing? They almost always do. Until you read the counter briefs. Statements from multiple witnesses? It only takes one or two of these claims to be proven false (eg Chris Fagan not being at meeting as claimed) for these statements to unravel. Of course, feel free to make bold predictions in this forum of zero consequence. But those standing in the front row of the lynch mob should at least start preparing for the day when much egg may need to be removed from their incredulous faces.

Have a good grasp of the forum's naivety after spending a week on here do you?

Congrats on the pen license btw.

 

[Nikita Blue]

The whole ‘trying to save’ argument is frightening and is usually an excuse for I am in power and can do what I want to you. I am happy to share my story as it is an important part of how I got to where I am today. Please don't see this as a sob story, it is actually a story of personal empowerment. I am stolen generation. Despite being so young I still have vivid memories of being dragged from my mothers arms whilst she was pinned to the ground by two grown men screaming in terror. I can still smell the sweat of the man who grabbed me and I will never ever forget the look of desperation in my mothers eyes. I never saw my mother again (she took her own life). I found this out years later as I was one of the lucky ones with the resources to research. Of my brothers and sisters. One died in prison, the others I was never able to locate but was able to find out info about the torment they went through.
The thing I most vividly remember is having it hammered into me that to me that my mother didn’t care for me and hated me. I kept being told she neglected me as I didn’t have shoes. I should add I was from the NT river mobs where shoes were a burden. I never met my birth father, a 'white' worker on his way through the community but the few memories I have of my birth mother is nothing but love. I remember her teaching me how to track, how to spot crocs and when and where I could collect the hunted magpie geese safely on the rivers. She wasn't a bad person, I didn't need to be saved from her. I just had the wrong colour skin. Her screams and the look in her eye and the fact she couldn't bear to live without her kids told me how much she loved me. How much she loved us. A few weeks ago I buried my Mum (who had me in her care since I was little and loved me unconditionally) and there wasn't a day when she didn't tell me how much my birth mother loved me.

People in power will abuse and look for excuses. Trying to save is one of those.

Thank you for your courage in sharing something so deeply painful. I would love for this post to be pinned so every poster on this thread reads it.

 

[tassietime]

Have a good grasp of the forum's naivety after spending a week on here do you?

Congrats on the pen license btw.

“We are what we always were in Big Footy, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the forum, and common vengeance writes the thread.” (With sincerest apologies to Arthur Miller)