USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[FireKrakouer]

An account seriously called Masculine Based? Without irony?

Why not? For years my twitter handle had "alpha male" in the name... it's called honesty. Here I am with EasternTiger and Lebbo73. Sadly both these scholars/gentlemen are banned from SRP due to fascist moderators.

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm for an independent Palestine and against Netanyahu's war of genocide. But for those wanting to vote independent to punish the Biden Administration, keep in mind that it's Netanyahu bombing children, even if it's with American bombs.

Remember the movie Oppenheimer, when President Truman says to Oppenheimer, 'Do you think the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki give a shit who built the bomb? They care who dropped it. I did.'

If you vote independent, you're helping to hand the White House to a man who will encourage Netanyahu to drop more. Think before you vote.

What???

It was Biden, (with Harris in tow) who has funded and supported Netanyahu every step of the way.

They have provided him with the weaponry, and likewise given him the political cover.

Biden and Harris have backed Netanyahu thus far in murdering close to 200 000 Palestinians (if you base yourself on the Lancet's figures), and dropping several nuclear bombs worth of munitions on the tiny territory of Gaza.

How can you possibly cite the record of the Democrats in relation to the genocide in Gaza as a reason to vote for them rather than an Independent??

 

[beez]

Has more than a slight financial reliance on Peter Theil

I'm aware of this, I just don't think it's material enough to warrant such criticism; especially since it's such a fledgling partnership. I view the criticism as akin to Hannity et al. droning on about Soros being the devil.

But happy to disagree.

 

[GrayRanga]

(1) If you consider ridiculing Trotsky's assassination as "humour", then your sense of humour is way off.

(2) Glad you posted this because it is the clearest expression of why you and I will ultimately always disagree on issues of fundamental importance.

You belong to the idealist camp of philosophy. For you, the opinions of the individual, his/her thoughts, ideas, preferences determine reality. When taken to its extremes, (as it is nowadays in postmodernist philosophy) it leads to the conclusion that there is no objective truth, every person has his/her own unique narrative which is "their truth", just as valid as any other individual's "personal story/truth".
This philosophical position leads to the destruction of any attachment to scientific thought, because the aim of scientific thought is to cognise reality objectively, independently of any individual's impressions or opinions.

On the contrary, I am a materialist, a dialectical materialist. My starting point is that matter is primary, the physical world is primary and our thoughts are an expression within our brains (which also consist of matter) of our first approximation to reality.

Therefore, objective truth exists, independently of what one or another partisan/biased observer might think.

Hence, the tendencies of US capitalism towards fascism, extreme social inequality and the expansion of war are objective, regardless of whether anyone thinks of them as interesting, depressing etc

And the means of preventing the descent into barbarism is also present, in the current situation, in objective material reality. It lies in international working class and the fight to establish its political independence so that it can organise a struggle in its own class interests across the entire world.

TLR

"The Night Watch" is arguably the best of Sir Terry Pratchett's books

One of the characters in the novel is Reg Shoe was/is an idealist and wannabe revolutionary in life as he is in death Unfortunately, he was repeatedly struck by crossbow bolts and his revolutionary zeal caused him to ignore his injuries and continue fighting. Shortly after succumbing to his wounds, he returned as a zombie at bcomes a member of the City Watch as one of the Watch's undead

Don't forget Reg, (played by John Cleese) in the "Life Of Brian" the the self-proclaimed leader of the People's Front of Judea continually spouting jargon and quoting the revolutionary constitution than at taking any sort of action

But what did the Roman's do for us?

Suffering through your epistles which sound like an undergraduate member of the Socialist Action debating team in 1973

I'd really sugget you read Prattchet, he condenses more of the human condition. poverty, politics and realpolitik in a book which i funnier all Politcal theory espoused in your page long posts

No matter what you post, there will alway be Reg in my mind's voice

 

[blackshadow]

It is necessary to view the world as the product of class struggle, between the only progressive force in society (the international working class) and the capitalist financial oligarcy, which is based within its respective nation states.

The division of the globalised economy into rival nation states all competing for the interests of their own capitalist class, and the existence of a massive system of social production on a world scale, producing incredible social wealth which is then seized by a miniscule captialist elite which then uses this wealth for its own private, selfish class interests, is the only standpoint from which to view reality.

From this standpoint, all governments currently are criminal in a fundamental historical and social sense: they defend the class interests of the dominant class, ie the capitalist financial and corporate oligarchy.

But the profit system is now in irreversible crisis, and that is why the US and European capitalist elites are supporting war, war against Russia (to be followed by war against China) along with war against Iran (which is being prepared by the genocide in Gaza, which all US/NATO governments support).

Therefore, with the above in mind, my answer to your question is that every government in the world is criminal because the capitalist system as a whole is historically bankrupt and a threat to human civilisation.

This means every government. Let me name a few for the sake of clarity: the Biden/Harris/Trump (?) administration, the Putin regime, the CCP in China, the Zelensky regime, the Albanese government, the Swedish government....
I hope you get the picture.

Not this shit again.
Socialism/communism is a failed ideology.
It breaks down as it’s against basic human nature. People look after number one first and then those with an altruistic nature help others when they’re in a position to help.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

The technology that exists today has strengthened the hand of revolutionary forces.

The technology that exists today would also strengthen the ability of the status quo to resist revolutionary forces.

And of course, revolutionary forces would have to exist in material numbers for this to even be a practical issue.

They don't.

 

[Chicken Treat]

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Suffering through your epistles which sound like an undergraduate member of the Socialist Action debating team in 1973

This.

 

[zumahawk]

I don't think Trump claims to represent "sound leadership"
He is not a "normal" capitalist politician.
He is not based on parliamentary methods.
He is based on the fascist playbook, and the methods of civil war.

I'm not sure Trump claims to represent anything apart from his own self interest.

 

[blackshadow]

And so if this is the sun setting on an empire, why not enjoy the show? I say let’s pick the most entertaining option.

Imagine Harris as the smooth-talking preacher, selling a message everyone knows is empty and hypocritical, but she delivers it with polish. Trump, on the other hand, is the blunt, elderly uncle in the back row, cracking jokes, letting out a loud fart, and suggesting a night at the strippers.

Suddenly, the church catches fire. Harris, standing at the altar, says, “Actually, if you look closely, this fire isn’t so bad. In fact, if you consider these statistics, we’re safer now than ever. If anyone’s responsible, it’s him,” nodding toward Trump.

From the back, Trump shouts, “This place wouldn’t be burning if I were still running things. Forget the strippers—who’s up for a night at the casino?”

Meanwhile, outside the church, an orphanage is engulfed in flames to the east and a hospital burns to the west. Harris and Trump eventually leave the church with their pockets stuffed with money from the collection plate. They use it to buy gasoline, which they throw onto the flames at the orphanage and hospital.

Inside the church, the regular people are too wrapped up in fierce arguments over trans people in sports to notice the fire closing in on them.

You’ve finally jumped the shark mate

 

[IlovethePies]

That is genuinely funny

The masses in Australia are currently obsessed with Albo getting Qantas upgrades and of course their continued and never ending obsession over all things Dan Andrew’s.

The ease with which the elite can manipulate the masses is frightening.

The ease with which the elite can manipulate public consciousness is actually in decline. This is because there is a growing and profound alienation from both major political parties in Australia, and of the entire political set up.

The Australian ruling elite is very concerned about the chasm opening up between the wealthy elite and its political representatives, with the vast majority of the population (ie the workign class).

The Quantas upgrade scandal only keeps living because elements within the Labor party keep leaking to the media their bitter criticisms of Albanese, who they fear is going to cost Labor the election - and consequently their own pleasant material positions.

Likewise in the US, vast masses of people are disgusted by the entire official framework.

This is why the ruling class in all countries is moving towards censorship of the internet. The ruling class is well aware that as the capitalist crisis deepens, the internet poses enormous dangers to their political domination. As social conditions deteriorate, as the threats of war and dictatorship intensify, vast masses will be looking for answers, alternatives. Socialist ideology will suddenly attract enormous interest.

The potential for socialist ideology to spread over the internet is a nightmare in the brain of the capitalist class.

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm not sure Trump claims to represent anything apart from his own self interest.

Well this is entirely wrong.
Trump's campaign has been bankrolled to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars by various members of the billionaire oligarchy in the US.
Would they be showering him with their largesse if he only represented his own self-interest??

 

[OneGreatClub]

That is genuinely funny

The masses in Australia are currently obsessed with Albo getting Qantas upgrades and of course their continued and never ending obsession over all things Dan Andrew’s.

The ease with which the elite can manipulate the masses is frightening.

I saw somewhere that calling them elite is a misnomer, they should be called the predators.

 

[jatz14]

The ease with which the elite can manipulate public consciousness is actually in decline. This is because there is a growing and profound alienation from both major political parties in Australia, and of the entire political set up.

The Australian ruling elite is very concerned about the chasm opening up between the wealthy elite and its political representatives, with the vast majority of the population (ie the workign class).

The Quantas upgrade scandal only keeps living because elements within the Labor party keep leaking to the media their bitter criticisms of Albanese, who they fear is going to cost Labor the election - and consequently their own pleasant material positions.

Likewise in the US, vast masses of people are disgusted by the entire official framework.

This is why the ruling class in all countries is moving towards censorship of the internet. The ruling class is well aware that as the capitalist crisis deepens, the internet poses enormous dangers to their political domination. As social conditions deteriorate, as the threats of war and dictatorship intensify, vast masses will be looking for answers, alternatives. Socialist ideology will suddenly attract enormous interest.

The potential for socialist ideology to spread over the internet is a nightmare in the brain of the capitalist class.

The ease with which valid and reliable forms of communication can be undermined, and the simplicity of replacing genuine knowledge with entirely made up, utterly illogical, and entirely fact free twaddle is frightening.

The likelihood of a genuine, good faith based, in the interests of the people, widespread popular movement gaining hold has fallen to zero.

Any nascent attempt at such will fall almost immediately to fake news, don't be a sheeple con artists, like Trump.
Like Qanon eventually got tied back to right wing disinformation campaigns, which was utterly predictable.

I would go so far as to say, if the governments you hate aren't faced with a popular online populist campaign, then they will create one.

It will say all the things you love to hear, and it will flood the web with such conspiratorial bullshit, that people will become utterly ineffectual.

Maybe they already have, based on your posting history. Do you REALLY know who is behind your favourite socialist news sources?

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[jatz14]

Well this is entirely wrong.
Trump's campaign has been bankrolled to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars by various members of the billionaire oligarchy in the US.
Would they be showering him with their largesse if he only represented his own self-interest??

He is like them, the things he does to help himself are likely to help them. Eg, the permanent tax cuts to the rich verse the temporary cuts for everyone else.



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[LuvtheKangas]

Well this is entirely wrong.
Trump's campaign has been bankrolled to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars by various members of the billionaire oligarchy in the US.
Would they be showering him with their largesse if he only represented his own self-interest??

Because they know they can easily manipulate the simpleton by convincing him that doing what they want is in his own self-interest. Of course.

This is so ridiculously obvious, I can't fathom you not getting it.

 

[Dazzler9]

Because they know they can easily manipulate the simpleton by convincing him that doing what they want is in his own self-interest. Of course.

This is so ridiculously obvious, I can't fathom you not getting it.

I can!

 

[GreyCrow]

The technology that exists today has strengthened the hand of revolutionary forces.

Then they are not doing a good job with it

 

[Ghost Patrol]

The technology that exists today has strengthened the hand of revolutionary forces.

This technology can also be weaponised against revolutionary forces. As we have seen recently, all it takes is a fascist regime to infiltrate the supply chain.

 

[IlovethePies]

TLR

"The Night Watch" is arguably the best of Sir Terry Pratchett's books

One of the characters in the novel is Reg Shoe was/is an idealist and wannabe revolutionary in life as he is in death Unfortunately, he was repeatedly struck by crossbow bolts and his revolutionary zeal caused him to ignore his injuries and continue fighting. Shortly after succumbing to his wounds, he returned as a zombie at bcomes a member of the City Watch as one of the Watch's undead

Don't forget Reg, (played by John Cleese) in the "Life Of Brian" the the self-proclaimed leader of the People's Front of Judea continually spouting jargon and quoting the revolutionary constitution than at taking any sort of action

But what did the Roman's do for us?

Suffering through your epistles which sound like an undergraduate member of the Socialist Action debating team in 1973

I'd really sugget you read Prattchet, he condenses more of the human condition. poverty, politics and realpolitik in a book which i funnier all Politcal theory espoused in your page long posts

No matter what you post, there will alway be Reg in my mind's voice

If Reg Shoe was an idealist, then he wasn't a revolutionary.

Prattchet is not on my immediate reading list.

Your issue is that you have become indoctrinated by Monty Python. I love Monty Python, but I didn't allow their sketches to influence my political orientation.

 

[Magruder]

Kant was part of the idealist school (but primarily Hegel) who influenced Marx's philosophical conceptions. In answer to your question though, my answer is a categorical no!! This is what Marx himself wrote:

the categorical imperative to overthrow all conditions in which man is a debased, enslaved, neglected [and] contemptible being'

And Marx then elaborated through the three fundamental components of Marxism (dialectical meterialist philosophy, English political economy and his discovery of the class struggle as the driving force of history ) how the liberation of mankind from class oppression would occur. Within capitalist society itself would grow and develop the very social force that would be compelled, for its own survival, to abolish capitalism, ie the proletariat.

If one adopts the position of dialectical materialism, there is absolutely no need to "reconcile" the existence of objective reality with an individual's perception of it. The individual's perception of reality psychologically occurs through his/her senses, all composed of matter, and is processed in the brain, likewise composed of matter. Consciousness is the highest form of matter in motion.

Appreciate your position but must reject it as internally inconsistent.

That objective reality is perceived through organs composed of matter is entirely irrelevant, particularly if objective truth (presumably also shaped and composed of matter) is construed by those parties in radically different ways. In short my view is objectively truthful to me, as yours is to you.

The imposition of an evolving universality that governs a moral response is to me a more practical tool than the broad determinism implicit in the Marxist position. This notion that class struggle will eventually be resolved in a way that is irrevocably agreeable to you is reductive at best and an article of faith at worst.

 

[Spearman]

Great clip. I haven’t come across it before. She’s such a looney and a charlatan, a rich one, so dumb are those Americans.

We've got so many of them. One I remember from the Reagan years would go into 'trances' and channel some 5,000 year old mystic or something. Had a weird yoda like voice and of course spoke English. She got a lovely, huge ranch with horses and large mansion out of it.

 

[big_e]

I wonder if JD has gotten confused about women who have memoriam/ birthdays for miscarriages and stillbirths
Maybe a way too charitable interpretation though

Very charitable.

Vance was a military PR guy and a university debater. If there's one thing he knows how to do, it's lie with a straight face.

 

[IlovethePies]

Because they know they can easily manipulate the simpleton by convincing him that doing what they want is in his own self-interest. Of course.

This is so ridiculously obvious, I can't fathom you not getting it.

not sure you understand what I wrote.
Trump is not just acting in his own "self interest"
He is acting in the interest of substantial sections of the capitalist class in the US who agree that their interests would best be served by the immediate installation of a fascist dictatorship.

Sorry, didn't realise that I would have to spell it out so much for comprehension to occur.

 

[jatz14]

Apparently, the un bleeped out un edited Trump Hollywood tapes is trending on tiktok amongst Gen Z, who were largely children when it first come out, but who are now voting age.

Apparently it's having quite the impact.

They get to hear the, grab em by the pussy, speech, and the full context in which it was said, which actually makes it worse, like most Trump quotes.

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