Society/Culture Why are young males now more right wing then older males?

[errant bounce]

Young men with shit lives who have been told they're privileged is the main issue, basically.

 

[mrherman]

Fascinated by how you point to China, India, and Japan as nationalist examples… while glossing over the fact that, outside of Japan, none of them offer the general population a higher standard of living than most Western countries — especially in Europe, Canada, Australia, or even large chunks of the U.S. (though they are working on getting worse currently). And Japan? They’ve got universal healthcare, strong unions, and a culture of civic responsibility — hardly a blueprint for the libertarian fever dream you're hinting at.

If you’re saying the West is crumbling because of “leftist influence,” maybe ask why most people in the world would still rather live in a Western democracy than your nationalist role models. Spoiler: it ain’t because they love long queues and collapsing infrastructure.

in Australia yes, but if it continues this way and become like other Western countries no. i value freedom and a healthy life over everything else. when yo u come from a communist country you view life differently that others do in the west.

today Western Europe, USA, NZ are stuffed & greatly unaffordable. Australia is lagging. face of those countries have changed over the past 15 years open borders, crime and theft are through the roof, they are slowly turning in to 3rd worlds, housing os unaffordable, the hospital and social programs are over loaded, the education systems is a mess kids are becoming activists marxists instead of educated, the gap between rich and poor is becoming greater we are led by weak corrupt pathetic leaders who must support leftist causes and war other wise are labeled racists. the locals speaking aout agains the migration are labeled racists, the leaders are unaccountable and spend like drunken sailers. in my 16 years here the place here is becoming vastly unrecognisable as it was once was

aside from japan who are still are about to be proud nationalistic and do not take in migration

 

[.Shotties.]

the education systems is a mess kids are becoming activists marxists instead of educated,

I have to ask; between the lack of critical thinking and the repeated writing errors, which education system from what time period are you from?

 

[mrherman]

I have to ask; between the lack of critical thinking and the repeated writing errors, which education system from what time period are you from?

finished high school in 2002 when government decided to close down a lot of the tafe colleges and every one went to uni. i spent the first 6 years of my life in East Germany.

the critical thinking comment im fascinated by this one as its a new term in society and is along the lines of marxist theory

 

[.Shotties.]

the critical thinking comment im fascinated by this one as its a new term in society and is along the lines of marxist theory

Our exchange was deleted, but I feel you should probably understand that critical thinking as in cognition is not the same as Critical Theory the philosophy as you seemed to think.

Me saying you lack critical thinking skills was based on you spewing a whole lot of talking points without being unaware of how a number of them contradict each other.

 

[barreness]

in Australia yes, but if it continues this way and become like other Western countries no. i value freedom and a healthy life over everything else. when yo u come from a communist country you view life differently that others do in the west.

today Western Europe, USA, NZ are stuffed & greatly unaffordable. Australia is lagging. face of those countries have changed over the past 15 years open borders, crime and theft are through the roof, they are slowly turning in to 3rd worlds, housing os unaffordable, the hospital and social programs are over loaded, the education systems is a mess kids are becoming activists marxists instead of educated, the gap between rich and poor is becoming greater we are led by weak corrupt pathetic leaders who must support leftist causes and war other wise are labeled racists. the locals speaking aout agains the migration are labeled racists, the leaders are unaccountable and spend like drunken sailers. in my 16 years here the place here is becoming vastly unrecognisable as it was once was

aside from japan who are still are about to be proud nationalistic and do not take in migration

Hmmmmmmmm, this would imply the education system is a lot better than I remember

But no, sadly no one is taught Marxist thought in primary/high school. Maybe some in a history degree, basically isn't touched in an economics degree

edit: Last time the Japanese got into their nationalism they killed ~20 million Chinese people, not exactly a great example

 

[barreness]

finished high school in 2002 when government decided to close down a lot of the tafe colleges and every one went to uni. i spent the first 6 years of my life in East Germany.

the critical thinking comment im fascinated by this one as its a new term in society and is along the lines of marxist theory

So your parents left just as reunification happened? not exactly proudly nationalistic of them

 

[Chief]

long queues and collapsing infrastructure

Describes a lot of places

Young men with shit lives who have been told they're privileged is the main issue, basically.

Who told you that?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Hmmmmmmmm, this would imply the education system is a lot better than I remember

But no, sadly no one is taught Marxist thought in primary/high school. Maybe some in a history degree, basically isn't touched in an economics degree

edit: Last time the Japanese got into their nationalism they killed ~20 million Chinese people, not exactly a great example

Well I find it hilarious that someone sees the gap between rich and poor increasing and concludes the problem is "Marxism".

 

[sr36]

China, India, Japan to name a few are very nationalistic countries.

the larger the influence the left has in western countries the bigger the basket case the west have become, debt levels crime, weak leaders, homeless ness, wars, drug problems, medical systems over loaded and education systems have become a joke

Yes China, India, Russia and the US - the 4 most powerful militaries - are becoming increasingly nationalistic and increasingly expansionary and are led by cults of personality that are turning the two that weren't very authoritarian into authoritarian states where the law is giving way to the power of the leader. The big European militaries could go down that path too. And worryingly the might is right sentiment is being screamed by those cultish leaders. It's looking like a re-birth of fascism. Likely to get ugly.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Gen Z men are meant to be conservative, so why aren’t the polls picking that up?

Polling says young and middle-aged men have not turned towards conservative politics in Australia as they did at the US election. So what’s going on?

www.theage.com.au

 

[carltonchelsea]

My son, 19 year old, wanted to join the ADF, second thoughts accruing, empathy and compassion building, proud dad here.
I’ll pay his way for a different future!
**** the military

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Young men with shit lives who have been told they're privileged is the main issue, basically.

I don't disagree with this, but the interesting part is that these young men with shit lives are choosing to focus on discussions of privilege, rather than genuinely seeking to understand why their lives are shit and who is fundamentally responsible for it. And often when they do the latter, they blame the wrong people for it. But this isn't all their fault, because a lot of money has been spent by a lot of powerful people to get young men to think and feel this way.

Firstly, media propaganda often misleads people as to what societal privilege even is, and what social progressives are asking to be done about it. They have painted it as a giant attack on straight white men and a desire by activists to hold them back. But in reality it's about how at the same income, wealth and education levels, it's still easier to be a man than a woman, white than non-white, straight than gay, and cis than trans. And it isn't something anyone needs to feel bad or ashamed about, but just to recognise that there's a long way to go before we truly see equality reflected in societal attitudes.

Secondly, media propaganda tells the men who do wonder why their lives are shit, that the fault lies with the people who are often on the lower end of societal privilege. Namely, women for not being willing to have sex with them, and non-white people for taking what apparently should be their jobs. And that without those groups holding them back, life for straight white men would be like the 1950s when they had it all. They tell straight white men that this is what they deserve, and if they vote for conservatives they can get it. That they're victims of a woke society and voting conservative is the only way to fight back.

But it's all a lie, a product being sold to them through advertising. The 1950s still sucked for white men in some ways, because there was no regard for their mental health, or the freedom to live outside of the stereotypical mould. And most women do not want to be shoved back into their 1950s straitjacket because it sucked for them even more. No man is necessarily owed sex or romance with a woman. Women now have their own agency and that's a good thing.

But most of all, the 1950s will never come again because capitalism won't let it. The real reasons young men with shit lives have shit lives, is because corporations moved jobs offshore, employers give little job security nowadays, property prices are through the roof and public services suffer because we don't collect enough tax revenue to fund them properly. Every one of these problems was created by corporations and wealthy people looking to make more money at the expense of the public.

These same wealthy people own the media and control conservative political parties. They do not want the people blaming them for making everything worse, because that leads to revolutions. So they ensure the people are divided and find a good scapegoat. It's easy to tell young men the problem is women and minorities to get the target off of the rich.

And posters like evolved2 will claim only the left have a victim mentality, when victimhood is exactly what the conservative political and media machine want young men to feel, to more easily control them and their votes. Every conservative accusation is also a confession.

 

[Seeds]

I don't disagree with this, but the interesting part is that these young men with shit lives are choosing to focus on discussions of privilege, rather than genuinely seeking to understand why their lives are shit and who is fundamentally responsible for it. And often when they do the latter, they blame the wrong people for it. But this isn't all their fault, because a lot of money has been spent by a lot of powerful people to get young men to think and feel this way.

Firstly, media propaganda often misleads people as to what societal privilege even is, and what social progressives are asking to be done about it. They have painted it as a giant attack on straight white men and a desire by activists to hold them back. But in reality it's about how at the same income, wealth and education levels, it's still easier to be a man than a woman, white than non-white, straight than gay, and cis than trans. And it isn't something anyone needs to feel bad or ashamed about, but just to recognise that there's a long way to go before we truly see equality reflected in societal attitudes.

Secondly, media propaganda tells the men who do wonder why their lives are shit, that the fault lies with the people who are often on the lower end of societal privilege. Namely, women for not being willing to have sex with them, and non-white people for taking what apparently should be their jobs. And that without those groups holding them back, life for straight white men would be like the 1950s when they had it all. They tell straight white men that this is what they deserve, and if they vote for conservatives they can get it. That they're victims of a woke society and voting conservative is the only way to fight back.

But it's all a lie, a product being sold to them through advertising. The 1950s still sucked for white men in some ways, because there was no regard for their mental health, or the freedom to live outside of the stereotypical mould. And most women do not want to be shoved back into their 1950s straitjacket because it sucked for them even more. No man is necessarily owed sex or romance with a woman. Women now have their own agency and that's a good thing.

But most of all, the 1950s will never come again because capitalism won't let it. The real reasons young men with shit lives have shit lives, is because corporations moved jobs offshore, employers give little job security nowadays, property prices are through the roof and public services suffer because we don't collect enough tax revenue to fund them properly. Every one of these problems was created by corporations and wealthy people looking to make more money at the expense of the public.

These same wealthy people own the media and control conservative political parties. They do not want the people blaming them for making everything worse, because that leads to revolutions. So they ensure the people are divided and find a good scapegoat. It's easy to tell young men the problem is women and minorities to get the target off of the rich.

And posters like evolved2 will claim only the left have a victim mentality, when victimhood is exactly what the conservative political and media machine want young men to feel, to more easily control them and their votes. Every conservative accusation is also a confession.

Jobs have moved offshore? Unemployment rates in the west are near all time lows and have been for a while. Can we stop pushing a myth that there is a lack of jobs and somehow foreigners taking those jobs are to blame for it. Its the same idea that drives MAGA and its false. Offshoring of manufacturing in the 60s to 80s hurt no man or females job prospects under 60 today. And it only benefitted under 60s because it greatly reduced the costs of goods thereby increasing the real wage every young person earns.

On housing you have a point. But not jobs.

 

[Coolangatta]

Jobs have moved offshore? Unemployment rates in the west are near all time lows and have been for a while. Can we stop pushing a myth that there is a lack of jobs and somehow foreigners taking those jobs are to blame for it. Its the same idea that drives MAGA and its false. Offshoring of manufacturing in the 60s to 80s hurt no man or females job prospects under 60 today. And it only benefitted under 60s because it greatly reduced the costs of goods thereby increasing the real wage every young person earns.

On housing you have a point. But not jobs.

Yep, loved his post but the manufacturing issue needs to be addressed, too. Specifically, it’s never going back to the levels it was in the 50s - 70s and anyone who promises it will like Trump is a charlatan.

And, nor should it. Technology changes the job market, and so it should.

Let’s just hope the power brokers don’t get rid of us if AI can do our jobs, but instead allow us to use AI as an assistant tool to make us more productive.

 

[Gralin]

Its not so much the offshoring of jobs that is the issue but what it allows companies to do

which is screw workers on pay to not have their job moved off shore

also for anyone that has had their industry stop because companies decided they could do it cheaper elsewhere it is rather shit

and they complain to their kids about how shit it was, and the conservative commentators complain about how unfair it is (while having no interest in doing anything about it, in fact they usually help it happen when in power)

it doesn't have to be true to be used at this point

 

[Pieshighflyer]

I don't disagree with this, but the interesting part is that these young men with shit lives are choosing to focus on discussions of privilege, rather than genuinely seeking to understand why their lives are shit and who is fundamentally responsible for it. And often when they do the latter, they blame the wrong people for it. But this isn't all their fault, because a lot of money has been spent by a lot of powerful people to get young men to think and feel this way.

Firstly, media propaganda often misleads people as to what societal privilege even is, and what social progressives are asking to be done about it. They have painted it as a giant attack on straight white men and a desire by activists to hold them back. But in reality it's about how at the same income, wealth and education levels, it's still easier to be a man than a woman, white than non-white, straight than gay, and cis than trans. And it isn't something anyone needs to feel bad or ashamed about, but just to recognise that there's a long way to go before we truly see equality reflected in societal attitudes.

Secondly, media propaganda tells the men who do wonder why their lives are shit, that the fault lies with the people who are often on the lower end of societal privilege. Namely, women for not being willing to have sex with them, and non-white people for taking what apparently should be their jobs. And that without those groups holding them back, life for straight white men would be like the 1950s when they had it all. They tell straight white men that this is what they deserve, and if they vote for conservatives they can get it. That they're victims of a woke society and voting conservative is the only way to fight back.

But it's all a lie, a product being sold to them through advertising. The 1950s still sucked for white men in some ways, because there was no regard for their mental health, or the freedom to live outside of the stereotypical mould. And most women do not want to be shoved back into their 1950s straitjacket because it sucked for them even more. No man is necessarily owed sex or romance with a woman. Women now have their own agency and that's a good thing.

But most of all, the 1950s will never come again because capitalism won't let it. The real reasons young men with shit lives have shit lives, is because corporations moved jobs offshore, employers give little job security nowadays, property prices are through the roof and public services suffer because we don't collect enough tax revenue to fund them properly. Every one of these problems was created by corporations and wealthy people looking to make more money at the expense of the public.

These same wealthy people own the media and control conservative political parties. They do not want the people blaming them for making everything worse, because that leads to revolutions. So they ensure the people are divided and find a good scapegoat. It's easy to tell young men the problem is women and minorities to get the target off of the rich.

And posters like evolved2 will claim only the left have a victim mentality, when victimhood is exactly what the conservative political and media machine want young men to feel, to more easily control them and their votes. Every conservative accusation is also a confession.

While I agree with virtually everything you said, the bolded is a massive sticking point. For young men in the 18-30 range in alot of urban areas, they're now behind in yearly income, and particularly educational outcomes.

That they're being told they have it easier than women when the data and their anecdotal experience begs to differ, is clearly going to be a point of friction.

It probably also doesn't help that when this is raised, there doesn't seem to be alot of sympathy for them ("well you've had it so well for so long", sins of the father type deal etc.). That'd push anyone away (please not this last point is anecdotal from what I've observed in online discourse).

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Jobs have moved offshore?

Manufacturing jobs have.

Unemployment rates in the west are near all time lows and have been for a while.

The jobs that have been created are different types, that require different skills. Manufacturing provided secure employment to a lot of people who didn't have a university education or trade qualifications. Nowadays it's harder to find good jobs without those things. Aged care could become one, if their working conditions don't get suppressed.

Can we stop pushing a myth that there is a lack of jobs and somehow foreigners taking those jobs are to blame for it.

I feel like you misunderstood my post altogether if you think that's what I was pushing.

Its the same idea that drives MAGA and its false. Offshoring of manufacturing in the 60s to 80s hurt no man or females job prospects under 60 today.

Again, it took away many prospects for unskilled workers to make a good living. People have adjusted by becoming more educated and qualified. There is still an effect on a particular class of people though, and particular communities, especially the children of those workers who were made redundant.

And it only benefitted under 60s because it greatly reduced the costs of goods thereby increasing the real wage every young person earns.

On housing you have a point. But not jobs.

Costs went down, and income inequality also rose. You could raise a family on a single income back then, whereas you can't afford to now.

Yep, loved his post but the manufacturing issue needs to be addressed, too. Specifically, it’s never going back to the levels it was in the 50s - 70s and anyone who promises it will like Trump is a charlatan.

I agree, I never suggested otherwise.

Let’s just hope the power brokers don’t get rid of us if AI can do our jobs, but instead allow us to use AI as an assistant tool to make us more productive.

I think that's a pretty forlorn hope for some roles. Just as manufacturing jobs were sent to the dustbin, so too will some basic admistrative jobs. Hopefully enough further jobs will be created, but if they aren't, I hope the AI productivity gains are taxed appropriately to help out ordinary people.

While I agree with virtually everything you said, the bolded is a massive sticking point. For young men in the 18-30 range in alot of urban areas, they're now behind in yearly income, and particularly educational outcomes.

Educational outcomes, I believe that. But I'd like to see evidence for young men being behind in yearly income. Are these for the same roles or different roles?

That they're being told they have it easier than women when the data and their anecdotal experience begs to differ, is clearly going to be a point of friction.

What data?

Many people think they're hard done by because they don't know what others have to go through. I wonder how many of these men have had a workplace superior demand they have sex with them to continue progressing in their career.

It probably also doesn't help that when this is raised, there doesn't seem to be alot of sympathy for them ("well you've had it so well for so long", sins of the father type deal etc.). That'd push anyone away (please not this last point is anecdotal from what I've observed in online discourse).

I've personally seen a lot of focus on men's mental health. And I don't think it's a paradise to be a man, particularly a poor one. I just think it's bunk to suggest they have it harder than women of the same income level. If these young men are demanding acknowledgement of their victim status while not acknowledging the issues other groups are subject to, then I'd consider them to be a bit self-absorbed.

 

[faible]

Educational outcomes, I believe that. But I'd like to see evidence for young men being behind in yearly income. Are these for the same roles or different roles?

https://www.canstar.com.au/savings-accounts/average-aussie-earn-save-owe/

It's a relatively minor gap at that stage of life since a large number would be more entry level roles but you can see in the 25 - 34 range (where most women would be having kids if they're wanting to do so) it starts to diverge quite substantially in favour of men and never really corrects.

I'm not sure if there's stats around that break-down earnings for women who don't have children / take time out of the workforce versus those who do, as that would be a more direct comparison with the average Australian male.

 

[pugsville]

in Australia yes, but if it continues this way and become like other Western countries no. i value freedom and a healthy life over everything else. when yo u come from a communist country you view life differently that others do in the west.

today Western Europe, USA, NZ are stuffed & greatly unaffordable. Australia is lagging. face of those countries have changed over the past 15 years open borders, crime and theft are through the roof, they are slowly turning in to 3rd worlds, housing os unaffordable, the hospital and social programs are over loaded, the education systems is a mess kids are becoming activists marxists instead of educated, the gap between rich and poor is becoming greater we are led by weak corrupt pathetic leaders who must support leftist causes and war other wise are labeled racists. the locals speaking aout agains the migration are labeled racists, the leaders are unaccountable and spend like drunken sailers. in my 16 years here the place here is becoming vastly unrecognisable as it was once was

aside from japan who are still are about to be proud nationalistic and do not take in migration

it's called capitalism

 

[Madas]

The patriarchy reinforcing its own standards onto a new generation.

Don't acknowledge your emotions. Don't let anyone in. Don't accept rejection. Don't feel anything other than the acceptable male emotions, boisterous enthusiasm or fury. Don't be affectionate in public. Have only masculine coded interests.

There's also a wide strand of conservativity that has wound its way around Australia socially for its entire existence. The OP conflates social conservatism with RW economics, which are not the same thing. Then, you have the consequences of the extremely sex positive libertarian internet, which means sex beamed into your eyeballs as often as you want it. A lott of young boy's first exposures to either sexual or gender relationship dynamics are negotiated through their relationships with the females in their lives laid against the infinite versions reproduced by the internet; whether we're talking tic tok or facebook or pornhub, the vast majority of these reproductions replicate pre-existing gender hierarchies and even lean into conservative ideals of how a woman should look, behave and act in a relationship.

You've then got the manosphere, which pulls young men in search of answers towards traditional masculinity and affirms that the society around them is indeed stacked against them and that it's women to blame. A lot of this stuff is also capitalist and materialist; you've got to have the expensive suit, the fast car, the manicured appearance, the expensive watch. You've got to smoke cubans, you've got to drape yourself in the aesthetic of wealth to be a real man. This pulls these boys into a spiral of retrograde attitudes towards women on one hand and RW capitalist attitudes with the other.

This is all surely not all that much of a surprise, is it?

I like this post but it leads me to ask the question of what ever happened to the SNAG and why the ideals of that generation weren’t passed onto the youth of today ?

Did the fathers of young men/boys today ( myself included) , who lived through the 80’s and 90’s where we were educated that the machoism of the 70’s was not acceptable , not stand a chance against the force that is the internet ?

Speaking for myself and my wife, we are very broad minded , well travelled tolerant people . My wife is a psychologist who works as a domestic violence councillor so is acutely aware of what toxic masculinity can lead to .
We’ve raised 2 sons 23 and 20 .

The 23 year old almost reflects our ideals to a T
However the 20 year year old has been sucked into this manosphere world which we are finding very troubling .

I can say with fairly certain conviction that the content of what they have individually consumed on the internet has had a huge impact on the types of young male they have become.

23 year old internet content - surfing , fishing , four wheel driving and investment

20 year old internet content - body building, Andrew Tate , Blaxsploitation

 

[Madas]

Political correctness is only "hardly mentioned" because woke has taken it's place as a more emotive descriptor of the right's great boogie-man.

Post after post is pushing that young men are moving right in rebellion against wokeness... but I really, really, really, just don't get it. Having grown up in the 90s, "political correctness gone mad" was all exactly the same rage. Christmas was getting cancelled. Gays were taking over the world. Environmentalists were a risk to our way of life due to their alarmism.

30 years later... the world isn't that different and all the claims are the same.



So what is different?
- Social Media has replaced traditional media, and created cultural silos or echo chambers greatly reducing the percentage of a person's interactions with a broad base of different opinions... that pushes people naturally to more extreme views and a greater engagement with their politics
- Fascism has lost its taboo... it's inherently labelled as ridiculous or extremist to label Trump type politics as fascist; deemed as "likening it to Nazism". Yet many of the political messaging and ideals behind the movement are objectively fascist. It feels like fascism was long enough ago that we no longer recognise it for what it is, but still write-off the naming of it as ridiculous hyperbole
- The traditional bastions of right wing politics... economic liberalism and religious conservatism... have faded as a foundation. The centre-left parties have adopted more or less equivalent economic positions, and religiousness has declined. That's left the more active rather than conservative aspects of right wing politics i.e. the drive towards fascism and the railing against the "wokeness", "socialists", "environmentalists", etc. as the primary purpose of right-wing parties. And that rebellious and anti-status quo aspect appeals primarily to young men... they're replacing rich old people as the core of that side of politics.


The western world's not that different. A little bit less religious. A little bit older. And a lot more economically unequal. But it plays into all the narratives above to say we're somehow in this topsy-turvy world of wokeness and oppression, and young men need to rebel against it. So not only are they leaning right, they're leaning into a modern fascist right that's very different to anything we've had in many decades.

Well said

 

[RookiePick]

I like this post but it leads me to ask the question of what ever happened to the SNAG and why the ideals of that generation weren’t passed onto the youth of today ?

Did the fathers of young men/boys today ( myself included) , who lived through the 80’s and 90’s where we were educated that the machoism of the 70’s was not acceptable , not stand a chance against the force that is the internet ?

Speaking for myself and my wife, we are very broad minded , well travelled tolerant people . My wife is a psychologist who works as a domestic violence councillor so is acutely aware of what toxic masculinity can lead to .
We’ve raised 2 sons 23 and 20 .

The 23 year old almost reflects our ideals to a T
However the 20 year year old has been sucked into this manosphere world which we are finding very troubling .

I can say with fairly certain conviction that the content of what they have individually consumed on the internet has had a huge impact on the types of young male they have become.

23 year old internet content - surfing , fishing , four wheel driving and investment

20 year old internet content - body building, Andrew Tate , Blaxsploitation

Really interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

I think the way media is consumed in modern households is a major part of what is going on and for a few different reasons.

- Loss of shared "media experiences" across the broader generation. People feeling they have more in common with someone of the other side of the world than the kid they go to school with 2 doors down.

- Dilution of any attempted social messaging given the plethora of channels and platforms. Hard to get any cut through with a "Life, Be In It", Anti-smoking or AIDS awareness campaign like we were exposed to.

- Proliferation of viewing devices in a household. Media no longer has to cater to a broad cross-section and can target their demographic with laser focus. A lot of checks and balances that were applied consciously and unconsciously when anyone from Great-Grandma to baby could see the same media in a single screen household are no longer implemented.

- Lack of parental monitoring. It's near impossible for parents to really know what their children are consuming online. The whole limited options and intrinsic screening of broadcast material "safety-net" has dissolved but perhaps parents raised with it have been slow to appreciate the change?

- Loss of shared family time. It probably wasn't the best family time being perched in front of the box but I remember plenty of discussion with the folks triggered by having the news on - first gulf war, berlin wall, collapse of USSR through to stuff like Monica Lewinsky. Conversations where my parents got to outline their opinions and beliefs with us (even if we didn't agree with or end up agreeing with as an adult) Conversations that I think were valuable and formative that have a lot less chance to incidentally occur in households these days.

I think another issue for the generation - formative years through the 80's and 90's - is that we got a good bit of information on what men shouldn't be doing but there was a distinct lack of positive role modeling of what young men should be doing. We were still being served our Arnie style heroes who crack the one liners, physically vanquish the bad guys and get the pretty girl. Pretty much the old school male stuff.

It's almost like the thought process was to delete/suppress the bad bits of what men do and then what was left would be good. I think what really happened is we created a generation of men who became pretty lost in the what the concept of a man was even supposed to be anymore. I don't think it's surprising that, if we created a cultural void, just as many undesirable things have rushed to fill it as desirable. How are/were we supposed to give the following generations a solid lead on masculinity when, by and large, we're grappling with the question ourselves?

I don't think that many of us are really cut out to ponder philosophical questions like "what does it mean to be a man?", most people just want a pretty clear set of boundaries where they will generally be perceived as "decent' if they swim between those flags. It would be nice if we all somehow hit puberty and came into some sort of self enlightenment but the truth is the vast majority of us will just try and find a herd to run with until we have way, way more life experience. Unfortunately the herd that resonates might hold what we would consider extreme views.

I'm sure your younger son will work it out in due course. It sounds like he has a decent grounding under him that will no doubt show through as he matures and acquires that off-line life experience.

 

[Chief]

Young men with shit lives who have been told they're privileged is the main issue, basically.

Or valid observations have been wilfully misinterpreted by grifters. Basically.

 

[kickazz]

Because older males saw how shit both Communism and Fascism were, but at least with Fascism, if you were part of the "chosen" in the hierarchy you might enjoy the spoils at least for a little while. If you did what you were told.

Future is looking bleak, folks want change. Young white men banking on themselves being included in the "chosen group" like in Spain last century.

Plenty wrong with what I've just said but logic doesn't really come in to this a hell of a lot.